6 replies to this topic

[D V Devnull]

Hello there, PGI Staff (and particularly Francois, whom I think can make this epic idea happen)... Please hang tight and read this whole post through, and please accept my apologies for having no Screenshots or other mockups due to my personal lack of PhotoShop-grade graphical talent and lack of personal resources to do a bunch of that stuff here, or you'll totally miss what I'm trying to present here.


For quite some time now, I've had thoughts brewing in my mind of how to make the Canyon Network even more grand than it was before. Things had run through my mind about going lateral and expanding the map to twice its' width and length with all kinds of additional walkways and the like, just to make the Map less small than it is now. But these ideas never really gave that Map any honest added flavor compared to what finally came to my mind...

• A reasonably-sized and skill-forming Underwater Cavern to fight in

...and only occurred to me while I was using the "F5 FreeCam" Module for looking around the Testing Grounds after the changes made by Francois which created the wet walking areas which I like and we all use now. In particular, what really hit it home was looking underneath the map in just the right way, having delved down far enough as to cause the view to end up indistinguishably fuzzy and require the Thermal Vision to finish looking around. (It's interesting seeing the various elements that are left out of view... Definitely gets my thumbs-up for being allowed to see and understand it.) I had to really crank this through my head, and examine possible spots for drilling down to create the Underwater Cavern that would be needed for this whole thing to ever have a chance of working out. In the process, I weighed a few things, including...

• Required Clearance to enable drilling a hole large enough for something a little taller than an Annihilator and/or Kodiak to have the ability of entering through, and wide enough that even a Stone Rhino (not currently in MWO now, but useful for delivering the thoughts and points) and/or King Crab could also avoid being choked off either
  
• Possible Angle to drill that would avoid creating unnecessary terrain glitches which could introduce added problems on the Map which would need further repairs
  
• Providing enough distance from all of the tunnel entrances to allow and enable digging down far enough to where the Underground Cavern would not interfere with the overhead play area
  
• Allowances for the Mobility of as many Mechs in the game as possible, particularly in terms of entry angle depth to these tunnels, and how to generally allow them the ability of not getting stuck trying to head either in and/or out through any of these tunnels
  
• The need to make sure that the Underground Cavern can be placed deep enough but made large enough that there is reasonable room for a whole bunch of Mechs to be fighting at the same time, but still have some pillars and other things down there to create both a natural feel along with various challenges for the player's Piloting & Combat Abilities in that zone
  
• Avoiding having to do too massive of a redesign and/or refitting on the topside surface of Canyon Network's Map beyond what is necessary to properly add the tunnel entry shaping in a natural manner
  
• Avoiding messing too much with the amazing work that Francois did to create the upgrades/changes to Canyon Network's design, even though collisions with it in terms of ideas was not 100% avoidable
  
• Avoiding messing with the current lateral Out-Of-Bounds Limits of the play area, even though that rim could be pushed back about Five Meters all around in general in order to increase helping with avoiding OOB-related Deaths from JumpJet-enabled Mechs flying a little too far during combat

...which of course really tore into the number of options on where I could even dare to think of suggesting entry points to access such a new (and potentially revolutionary) fascinating piece of Map-making work. It almost blew this Enhancement Concept Idea out of the water completely, which would have massively sucked! And yet, it so happens that I finally got my mind back into gear, and so here comes a list of Approximate Coordinates & Other Information of where the drilling could take place to create the routes which would lead down into it...

• 2126.0 — 2810.8 — 196.3 (Facing SSW near B4/C5 Corner @ ~200 degrees, with 35 degree initial downward angle)
  
• 1727.3 — 2852.6 — 181.2 (Facing basically South on C4/B4 Border @ ~195 degrees, with 40 degree initial downward angle, opening made explicitly below the bridge underside)
  
• 1124.9 — 2573.2 — 188.0 (Facing basically South near C3/C2 Border @ ~175 degrees, with 40 degree initial downward angle)
  
• 1023.1 — 2200.2 — 182.7 (Facing ESE near D2/D3 Border @ ~110 degrees, with 40 degree initial downward angle)
  
• 1092.3 — 1842.4 — 185.3 (Facing NE near E2/D3 Corner @ ~45 degrees, with possibly a 45 degree initial downward angle ... This one may not fit in the grand scheme of things, but I don't know)
  
• 1385.0 — 1795.1 — 182.9 (Facing ESE near D3/E3 Border @ ~118 degrees, with 30 degree initial downward angle ... This one is meant to connect with the below item on the way down under, respectively taking a left turn where the connection happens)
  
• 1693.1 — 1631.6 — 186.7 (Facing WNW in E4's area @ ~298 degrees, with 30 degree initial downward angle ... This one is meant to connect with the above item on the way down under, respectively taking a right turn where the connection happens)
  
• 2016.6 — 2079.8 — 182.4 (Facing West in D4's area @ ~270 degrees, with possibly a 45 degree initial downward angle ... This one may not fit in the grand scheme of things, but I don't know)

...but I unfortunately ran out of good spots to pick after those eight, a very small pool of choices to use. Terrain towards the "6 Line" of Grid Areas was not hospitable for making most of these choices, and repeatedly kept pushing me back in the direction of the D3 locale in the allowed play area as a point to revolve around. Perhaps that locale is a spot to use for a Reference Point in terms of where to potentially put the Underground Cavern beneath, such as at...

• 1586.0 — 2141.5 — 189.6 (Approximately D4/D3 Border Zone)

...because it happens that I really can not think of anywhere better to position it. However, it does put the core of the Underground Cavern relatively midway between all the tunnel entry zones that I am suggesting towards making it a reality. I can only hope that will also enable easy work on Game Balance in those sections, such that they end up being reasonably equal for as many players as possible.


So ultimately if this comes to fruition, this would be the first time that I could ever enjoy an underwater fight in my entire MechWarrior-related history. And this is also where my mind wears out after working on creating this Thread and its' Opening Post for close to Four Hours of time spent. I'm sure those of you at PGI will be fully able to work out additional details like...

• how long some of these tunnels are
  
• what the real entry angles for each tunnel should be
  
• how large the Underground Cavern itself ends up being
  
• what kinds of pillars the Underground Cavern will contain

...and other such things that I haven't specified because I don't have access to your Map-making & other modeling tools. If you decide to take on this Enhancement Concept Idea which sprung up from my mind and attempt to turn it into something amazing, then please surprise me with whatever result may occur from my planting the seed of something potentially grand for MWO's future existence. I only know currently that the final result of adding an Underwater Cavern to the Canyon Network Map is not mine to ultimately control and/or dictate.


~D. V. "Underwater Cavern for the Canyon Network? My mind gives part of a picture." Devnull




[After-Edit by the Post's Author for correcting some Formatting-based issues, along with creating a Voting Poll for enabling others to be heard...]

Edited by D V Devnull, 06 November 2021 - 09:45 AM.

[Nesutizale]

First up, sorry if I didn't read it all. My head started spinning when I read lots of numbers

While I find the idea of an underwater tunnel interesting in general there are two points of concern.

1) How not to create another HPG undergound where people are either top or buttom side without anything happening. I found that was one of the most annoying parts of the map.

2) How does MWO handle underwater combat respectivly combat in and out of water. Before we drill said tunnels that should be worked out. IIRC water blocks damage in and out of it but dosn't effect combat underwater, is that about right?

I think we need a way to shoot in and out of it as well as different rules for underwater combat in weapon ranges and flooding of zones (side torso, etc.).

When those two points could be done then yes, go for a tunnel.
Another idea that goes in a similar way, how about flooding the map so that only the top levels are dry land while the rest is under water?

[Roodkapje]

After watching the Battletech Cartoon again a while ago since like 25+ years I think we ABSOLUTELY need a map where even big Assault mechs can get into water that covers about 50% of their height and gives them a Cooling Bonus !!!

[MW Waldorf Statler]

To Make a Cave is a Lot of Work by creating a Map when you not have assets for it.
Is a Lot of Work especially with Water thats brings many Problems.
Best Solution is to make a Complete Mesh cave Asset and bring it with Entrys under the Map.or, for example use the Solaris Ischiyama Cave Assets.





-Underwaterfights have other Gravity parameters and Physical effects , and we not have Cry 3 Specialists with enough Know How for it by PGI and not the guys from MWLL.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 22 February 2022 - 04:45 AM.

[Roodkapje]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 22 February 2022 - 03:24 AM, said:

To Make a Cave is a Lot of Work by creating a Map when you not have assets for it.
Is a Lot of Work especially with Water thats brings many Problems.
Best Solution is to make a Complete Mesh cave Asset and bring it with Entrys under the Map.or, for example use the Solaris Ischiyama Cave Assets.

OK, but how about a place with really deep water that covers about 50% of the biggest Assault Mechs ?!

And have an effect on the Cooling Capacity too ??

[MW Waldorf Statler]

sadly the Cry3 Crew from the MWLL Mod not working for PGI...sorry EG7

[D V Devnull]

Hello everyone, and sorry it has taken me so long to respond. So much happens in life and with other things, such that thinking to come back and answer other's thoughts can end up pushed completely out of the mind. Well, at least until someone or something forces your hand, and you end up with an automatic deadline due to their post elsewhere. (That can also incur some very negative thoughts, but I'm not getting into the details here.) Let's get started, and please pardon the slight sparseness incurred by the Forum Software on emoticons...

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Nesutizale, on 06 November 2021 - 01:39 PM, said:

First up, sorry if I didn't read it all. My head started spinning when I read lots of numbers

While I find the idea of an underwater tunnel interesting in general there are two points of concern.

1) How not to create another HPG undergound where people are either top or buttom side without anything happening. I found that was one of the most annoying parts of the map.

2) How does MWO handle underwater combat respectivly combat in and out of water. Before we drill said tunnels that should be worked out. IIRC water blocks damage in and out of it but dosn't effect combat underwater, is that about right?

I think we need a way to shoot in and out of it as well as different rules for underwater combat in weapon ranges and flooding of zones (side torso, etc.).

When those two points could be done then yes, go for a tunnel.
Another idea that goes in a similar way, how about flooding the map so that only the top levels are dry land while the rest is under water?

I may not be able to avoid the zoned separation of HPG Manifold's Basement with this idea. At most, I suppose one could punch a small hole big enough to drop a Dire Wolf or King Crab through somewhere in the upper main terrain down into the underwater cavern. That hole would probably have to be somewhere over the center of the underwater cavern. As it is, this idea kind of already makes holes from the sides in about 7 or 8 places, I think? At least along those paths, if the top of the water in those entrances runs equal with the water surface made on the main terrain, then you're submerging near immediately. One could probably do the same with the overhead drop-in too.

As for any Damage Blocking going on at the water's surface, it happens that I ran some tests over on Canyon Network while in the Testing Grounds operations functions. I can pretty much confirm there is zero blocking whatsoever, but that's actually helpful to keep combat reasonably fun. The only hitch which can happen at this point is people being able to see each other from one side of the water surface or the other, possibly creating an unfair advantage in one of the directions. That can thankfully be easily corrected by making the water surface at all of the entry points proportionally dark to match the tunnel theme. The result would be that all players are required to use the Thermal Vision on both sides of the entry surface to see along the tunnel paths.

In regard to Flooding of the Mech Components along with Weapon Ranges and your thoughts about it, that's something I would rather skip any modifications for. Why? All the excessive extra coding & modifications which it would take for just that one Map (and the extremely low chance of another) in the game does not justify the cost of messing with so much, particularly when we have already seen so many other things blow out and end up with awful game-ruining Bugs in the past. Otherwise a player's Structure and some Weapons on their Mech would become potentially meaningless when keeping the game fun is one of the things that remained top in my mind while making this idea.

Probably the one thing we could enable however is enhanced cooling to all Heat Sink Equipment (both Single AND Double, depending on what the player chose) on a Mech while it's submerged, and proportional to how much is dunked in the water. It would just be a matter to take advantage of previous things I had already heard are present in MWO's "CryTek 3" Game Engine and apply them more massively to the underwater zone.

I hope that maybe you'll still give Support to this idea anyway and we see where it can go, 'Nesutizale', even with my intent to keep things a bit more basic via reason in the purpose of fun for everyone?

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Roodkapje, on 21 February 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

After watching the Battletech Cartoon again a while ago since like 25+ years I think we ABSOLUTELY need a map where even big Assault mechs can get into water that covers about 50% of their height and gives them a Cooling Bonus !!!

Thank You for joining those who Support my idea, 'Roodkapje'... If you'll spend the time and read my response above to 'Nesutizale', you'll find that I actually want to go all the way in terms of submerging Mechs on the battlefields. How would you like ALL your nifty Heat Sink Equipment (both Single AND Double, depending on what the player chose) on the Mech to receive a bonus?

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MW Waldorf Statler, on 22 February 2022 - 03:24 AM, said:

To Make a Cave is a Lot of Work by creating a Map when you not have assets for it.
Is a Lot of Work especially with Water thats brings many Problems.
Best Solution is to make a Complete Mesh cave Asset and bring it with Entrys under the Map.or, for example use the Solaris Ischiyama Cave Assets.

<<< video from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oDQsb3OFK8 >>>

<<< video from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py-PSSG_248 >>>

-Underwaterfights have other Gravity parameters and Physical effects , and we not have Cry 3 Specialists with enough Know How for it by PGI and not the guys from MWLL.

Roodkapje, on 04 March 2022 - 10:58 AM, said:

OK, but how about a place with really deep water that covers about 50% of the biggest Assault Mechs ?!

And have an effect on the Cooling Capacity too ??

MW Waldorf Statler, on 07 March 2022 - 02:23 AM, said:

sadly the Cry3 Crew from the MWLL Mod not working for PGI...sorry EG7

<<< video from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywWECd6p2PM >>>

Hello to the both of you, 'MW Waldorf Statler' & 'Roodkapje'... It so happens that in the pursuit of keeping things fun, and not burdening PGI's MWO Team in any unnecessary manner, there are things which should be skipped here. We don't need to screw with gravity, as it could just be assumed in MWO's Universe that water simply gets out of the way when a Mech is moving through it, even vertically. In terms of effects on Weapons and how they work, those should not be touched either, particularly when I already intend for everyone to be using Thermal Vision while fighting down in that section which will make aiming a bit harder. I've covered some of the other things in my reply to 'Nesutizale' above like those physical effects you're talking about, such as Mech Cooling and how it would work underwater. As for normal vision, it would be essentially blocked & useless underwater due to the water's blurring effect, since I have intended the Thermal Vision would be necessary. That levels the playing field for people with natural Real Life visual impairments... a group which I am not personally one of, but don't mind equalizing things for them. Basically put, we can all cool our jets a bit about this and not panic, as all PGI's MWO Team needs to do is establish the physical space for the underwater zone, set up the water effect space in that area too, and that will be good enough.

'MW Waldorf Statler', as I intend to keep this idea simple in the intent and purpose of fun for everyone, may I therefore have your Support on my idea please?

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...and with that, I do believe that I've fielded all the visible questions here. (If it happens that I've missed one, you have my complete apologies!) Here's to my hope that you'll all now want to jump on-board with Support and get tons of others to join in, all in the want for PGI's MWO Team to add something fun to Canyon Network at some point in the future for everyone to enjoy! Until then, I'm off in the wind, but I'll be watching!

~D. V. "In case anyone wonders, 'Roodkapje' had forced my catch-up elsewhere with this thread." Devnull