17 replies to this topic

[Maj Destruction]

I got some great advice on my previous thread, "LRMs suck (Venting)". One suggestion was to try LRM boating for myself to learn more about it. So tonight I threw some LRMs on my trusty Marauder Scorch (which has become my favorite brawler).

I still have a lot to learn about loadouts, so I took a hip-shot at it based on experience thus far. I'd only used LRMs a little bit on trial mechs when I first started. Went with the LRM/15, as it seemed a resource-efficient option for this mech. Also threw on an AC/10 so I'd have a direct-fire option, and for any long clear shots I might get while hanging back from the action.

First try, I ended up Conquest on Hibernal Rift. I expected to hang back and just play with the LRMs a bit, but the fight came to us pretty quick, though it was a bit scattered. I think the other team was focused on cap'ing, our team moreso on kills. We almost wiped them out, but ultimately lost due to resources.

My first target was pretty close, less than 400m I think. Saw him briefly fighting someone, then he stepped behind a small hill. On my second shot, he went down.....much to my surprise.

Most games, I'm happy to just get one kill, 2 is great. This time, I ended up with 3. Damage was 532 done, 365 taken........for me, that is a pretty decent round.

I had more fun than I expected. I figured I'd be hanging back and lobbing LRMs blindly over hills at distant enemies. But the action was pretty close, which kept me on the move, and meant I got to actually see the enemy, and find little skirmishes to support. Even got in some good licks with the AC/10.

But, I have to admit....if I had been one of the 3 folks I took out, I probably would have been quite annoyed and frustrated. I'm pretty sure my first kill never even saw me, and he went down quick. Maybe it's because I'm in tier 5....or maybe I will soon get pwned by lights and ECM. Those LRMs just seemed to dominate. And I didn't even have a targeting computer.

A'ight, time for some more experimenting on the battlefield now.

Matt

[Meep Meep]

With all the new maps cutting off most traditional lrm spam you need to adapt to the new meta. The old model of cramming in a ton of lrm on a big slowish mech is gone and you need to find mobile jumpy mechs to get to the spots you can use them properly.

Try either a huntsman or veagle or jenner IIc with clan lrm and you will see how you can now easily get into the positions needed to apply the steel rain.

[Escef]

Meep Meep, on 16 December 2021 - 07:41 PM, said:

The old model of cramming in a ton of lrm on a big slowish mech is gone...

To be honest, that style never worked as well as its proponents believed anyway. My BLR-1S has always been rigged up as an LRM boat. I got it in Project Phoenix back in the day, and with my 1G and 1D both being laser boats at the time, I didn't see any point to trying that with the 1S (this was also well before the quirk system was implemented). So, I rigged it up with 2xLRM10, 2xLRM15, 4xML and a 300std engine. Did ok. But after a while I noticed that the more mobile battles often had me struggling to keep up and that my relevancy would basically disappear, and I also noted that there was nothing in the build that made it any better or different from a Stalker.

So, I tried a radical idea. I fitted by BLR-1S with an XL engine. The biggest one I could fit without radically altering the build concept. 340XL, 2xALRM15, 2xALRM10, 4xML. Not only could it throw LRMs like a boss, but it had enough speed to almost always be where it needed to be. Given that the 1S is a Steiner variant and that House Steiner is Germanic and often has female leaders, I began to personify the mech as female and mean. So, what name did I give her, what name conjures forth the image of a big, mean Germanic woman that takes no sh**? I named her Hilda.


She's overall been one of my most consistent mechs. I attribute a good sized piece of this to the fact that her role as IDF curbs my aggressive tendencies and forces me to focus more on my positioning and keeping track of the flow of combat.

[martian]

Maj Destruction, on 16 December 2021 - 07:20 PM, said:

Maybe it's because I'm in tier 5....or maybe I will soon get pwned by lights and ECM. Those LRMs just seemed to dominate.

Tier 5 players often do not know how to protect against LRMs, so they are easy targets. The higher you move in Tiers, the less useful your LRMs are going to be.

As for aggresive light 'Mechs, you will not see too many of them, since Tier 5 players are often quite passive. Again, you will have to leave Tier 5 to meet some really good light 'Mech pilots in good light 'Mechs with good loadouts.

Maj Destruction, on 16 December 2021 - 07:20 PM, said:

And I didn't even have a targeting computer.

Targeting Computer is not too useful for LRM boats, it provides only minimal benefits for such loadout.
Try Clan Active Probe and Target Acquisition Gear.
Artemis IV Fire Control System is useful sometimes, but it needs some tonnage (1 ton per each missile launcher).

[LordNothing]

tc1 gives you a 22.5% lock time buff, or 75% with the tc7. unless the in game data is lying to me, that seems like a pretty big buff to lock time. the cost of the tc will no doubt reduce your tubes or ammo, but if you are making a tinderbox out of yourself to bring an absurd quantity of lerms, it might pay off to trade at least a ton or two to a tc.

i wasnt sure what tag does anymore. i actually had to google the missile patch to figure it out and found the 3/19/19 patch notes. all tag does now is make missiles behave as if you had line of sight. however if you are tagging your own target, you already have line of sight and tag does nothing for you. unless you want to support other missile boats in order to concentrate more missiles on a target than what you can deliver yourself, tag team tactics have proven effective where two or more lerm boats try and concentrate on the same target from multiple angles. it does also counter a single ecm unit. but if thats all you want bring an lppc instead to shut down ecm for a duration, long enough to get a lock, and shut down stealth for its cooldown period. clanners have to use a cerppc, but thats not really a bad thing.

Edited by LordNothing, 16 December 2021 - 11:02 PM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

LordNothing, on 16 December 2021 - 10:58 PM, said:

tc1 gives you a 22.5% lock time buff, or 75% with the tc7. unless the in game data is lying to me, that seems like a pretty big buff to lock time. the cost of the tc will no doubt reduce your tubes or ammo, but if you are making a tinderbox out of yourself to bring an absurd quantity of lerms, it might pay off to trade at least a ton or two to a tc.

Gonna stop you right there. TC's enhance the target info gathering, not missile locks. The only thing on TC's that slightly enhances missile locks is the sensor range buff, because the lock-on time for IDF locks is dependent on your sensor range.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

the trick with LRMs, and why so many lurmers suck at them, is to use them in the 200-400mtr range, ideally as DF.
fast flight, tight grouping, good results.
IDF is a crutch, and one the 'bad' lurmers swear by. don't fall into that trap.


the real trick to LRMs however, in my mind at least, is to use them only when an event really, really forces you to.
doing LRM properly is quite different to how you do all the rest properly, and lurming too much f*cks up my aim, my general awareness and quite frankly also my ability to kill an open component/whole mech quickly.
all in all: I'd just stay clear of them, as you're doing a yoda there: you literally "unlearn what you've learned" over time

[Horseman]

LordNothing, on 16 December 2021 - 10:58 PM, said:

A'ight, time for some more experimenting on the battlefield now.

Try boating LRMs on a Trebuchet 7M, Catapult C4, Awesome 8R or Nova Cat B.

Escef, on 16 December 2021 - 08:09 PM, said:

So, I tried a radical idea. I fitted by BLR-1S with an XL engine. The biggest one I could fit without radically altering the build concept. 340XL, 2xALRM15, 2xALRM10, 4xML. Not only could it throw LRMs like a boss, but it had enough speed to almost always be where it needed to be. Given that the 1S is a Steiner variant and that House Steiner is Germanic and often has female leaders, I began to personify the mech as female and mean. So, what name did I give her, what name conjures forth the image of a big, mean Germanic woman that takes no sh**? I named her Hilda.
She's overall been one of my most consistent mechs. I attribute a good sized piece of this to the fact that her role as IDF curbs my aggressive tendencies and forces me to focus more on my positioning and keeping track of the flow of combat.

You'll probably find the Awesome 8R a bit better - it's far, far more heavily quirked for the purpose, for one.

LordNothing, on 16 December 2021 - 10:58 PM, said:

i wasnt sure what tag does anymore. i actually had to google the missile patch to figure it out and found the 3/19/19 patch notes. all tag does now is make missiles behave as if you had line of sight.

... and breaks ECM at range, which is significant.

Quote

but if thats all you want bring an lppc instead to shut down ecm for a duration, long enough to get a lock, and shut down stealth for its cooldown period. clanners have to use a cerppc, but thats not really a bad thing.

TAG is heat-free and hitscan, a PPC produces heat and requires you to lead the target, breaking your lock in the process.

[martian]

LordNothing, on 16 December 2021 - 10:58 PM, said:

tc1 gives you a 22.5% lock time buff, or 75% with the tc7. unless the in game data is lying to me, that seems like a pretty big buff to lock time. the cost of the tc will no doubt reduce your tubes or ammo, but if you are making a tinderbox out of yourself to bring an absurd quantity of lerms, it might pay off to trade at least a ton or two to a tc.

CAP is more useful for LRM boats:

• Clan TC1 boosts your sensor range by 2.3 %.
  
• Clan Active Probe boosts your sensor range by 25 %.

This has two important benefits:

• Better situational awareness. Essentially, you know about enemy 'Mechs sooner.
  
• Relative range advantage. You can start Lurming enemy 'Mechs sooner.

LordNothing, on 16 December 2021 - 10:58 PM, said:

i wasnt sure what tag does anymore. i actually had to google the missile patch to figure it out and found the 3/19/19 patch notes. all tag does now is make missiles behave as if you had line of sight. however if you are tagging your own target, you already have line of sight and tag does nothing for you. unless you want to support other missile boats in order to concentrate more missiles on a target than what you can deliver yourself, tag team tactics have proven effective where two or more lerm boats try and concentrate on the same target from multiple angles. it does also counter a single ecm unit. but if thats all you want bring an lppc instead to shut down ecm for a duration, long enough to get a lock, and shut down stealth for its cooldown period. clanners have to use a cerppc, but thats not really a bad thing.

There is some difference between TAG, Light PPC and Clan ER PPC:

• TAG weighs one ton and needs one slot. Assault 'Mechs such as the OP's "Scorch" can afford being equipped with TAG.
  
• Light PPC weighs three tons and needs two slots. This is three tons less of LRM ammo or three less heat sinks, etc.
  
• Clan ER PPCs weighs six tons ...

TAG also has unlimited duration, while Light PPC has three seconds cooldown. Clan ER PPC needs five seconds to recharge.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

best alternative to a TAG:

2HvyLL, 4-6 erM and a bit of aim; it tags a component REAL good and makes further "support fire" unnecessary in many cases

[Escef]

Horseman, on 17 December 2021 - 07:31 AM, said:

You'll probably find the Awesome 8R a bit better - it's far, far more heavily quirked for the purpose, for one.

Only Awesome I have is the 8Q. I have to admit, the velocity buff and extra cooldown on the 15s are interesting. The BLR is faster with better cooling, though. The massive structure buffs on the Awesome do give you more ability to trade away internal damage for protracted weapons fire with a heat override. On paper, they look pretty close in overall performance. The Awesome also has the option for quad 15 packs pretty easily, though I'm not sure how worth it that is. Overall, just a bunch of subtle differences between them, and which one is better than the other seems very situation to me, and even then the difference may not even be significant enough to make a difference.

I have broken 1300 damage in quickplay with that BLR, and I wager the AWS could do it as well. But what I've already got works more than well enough, I don't see a need to pick up the Awesome. If anyone has used both I'd love to hear their thoughts on the comparison.

[LordNothing]

martian, on 17 December 2021 - 08:02 AM, said:

CAP is more useful for LRM boats:

• Clan TC1 boosts your sensor range by 2.3 %.
  
• Clan Active Probe boosts your sensor range by 25 %.

This has two important benefits:

• Better situational awareness. Essentially, you know about enemy 'Mechs sooner.
  
• Relative range advantage. You can start Lurming enemy 'Mechs sooner.

There is some difference between TAG, Light PPC and Clan ER PPC:

• TAG weighs one ton and needs one slot. Assault 'Mechs such as the OP's "Scorch" can afford being equipped with TAG.
  
• Light PPC weighs three tons and needs two slots. This is three tons less of LRM ammo or three less heat sinks, etc.
  
• Clan ER PPCs weighs six tons ...

TAG also has unlimited duration, while Light PPC has three seconds cooldown. Clan ER PPC needs five seconds to recharge.

i suppose if you want to run lerms at a longer range, bap>tc. but i usually install both. i never run locking weapons without bap, but if i can also take a tc1 or greater thats also going to improve your game. time spent locking is time not firing. you can also get missiles out on targets while they hop cover to cover and some do land. 22.5% faster is time saved. going for the full tc7 is probibly not a viable build as it cuts into your ammo budget a bit too much. but a tc 2 or 3 is a good middle ground.

tonnage cost and heat of lppcs is manageable. if you were already going to carry 3mpls, then a pair of lppcs is a good alternate. while mpls are a good anti-squirrel weapon, the pair of lppcs is still highly workable if you have good aim and above average situational awareness. 2 lets you keep an ecm down, or counter 2 ecms near simultaneously. tag is limited to countering only a single system at a time. il give you that the cerppc is a less useful option, even though 6t is a workable backup weapon budget.

and you dont have to carry all of the above. a mobile lerm platform is probibly only going to have the tonnage for the bap and not a lot else. im not saying the tc is better, only that it is useful. i also see a lot of lerm boats that have way more ammo than they can effectively use in a match and there is better uses for that tonnage.

[LordNothing]

im pretty sure i only have 2 lerm boats, out of 380 mechs. i found one yesterday, a mad cat out of all things. i dont remember what my is lerm boat is, but its probibly a highlander (the one with the ac20 as a backup weapon). i keep one of each in case of lerm specific event requirements.

[LordNothing]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 16 December 2021 - 11:24 PM, said:

Gonna stop you right there. TC's enhance the target info gathering, not missile locks. The only thing on TC's that slightly enhances missile locks is the sensor range buff, because the lock-on time for IDF locks is dependent on your sensor range.

if this is true then some of the in game information is wrong (or at least confusing) and should be corrected.

and yep, i just tested it and it does seem to be target info gathering and not lock time. so ignore me. except the thing about the lppc, i swear by that one.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 December 2021 - 07:32 PM.

[martian]

LordNothing, on 17 December 2021 - 07:07 PM, said:

i suppose if you want to run lerms at a longer range, bap>tc. but i usually install both. i never run locking weapons without bap, but if i can also take a tc1 or greater thats also going to improve your game. time spent locking is time not firing. you can also get missiles out on targets while they hop cover to cover and some do land. 22.5% faster is time saved. going for the full tc7 is probibly not a viable build as it cuts into your ammo budget a bit too much. but a tc 2 or 3 is a good middle ground.

Target Info Gathering is just a different name for "Enemy Mech Scan". Target Info Gathering has no influence on the speed of getting LRM locks.

LordNothing, on 17 December 2021 - 07:07 PM, said:

tonnage cost and heat of lppcs is manageable. if you were already going to carry 3mpls, then a pair of lppcs is a good alternate. while mpls are a good anti-squirrel weapon, the pair of lppcs is still highly workable if you have good aim and above average situational awareness. 2 lets you keep an ecm down, or counter 2 ecms near simultaneously. tag is limited to countering only a single system at a time. il give you that the cerppc is a less useful option, even though 6t is a workable backup weapon budget.

1. The OP talked about using LRMs on "Scorch", i.e. Clan Assault BattleMech. The Clans do not have access to Light PPCs.

2. The more tonnage and volume you put into your 'Mech's secondary weapons, the worse your 'Mech works in its primary role, i.e. boating LRMs. Your 3 MPLs or 2 Light PPCs with TC1 means 7 tons less for LRMs and ammo.

3. The purpose of LRM boats is to spam enemy team with as many LRMs as possible, not to suppress enemy ECM 'Mechs with the Light PPC fire.

LordNothing, on 17 December 2021 - 07:07 PM, said:

and you dont have to carry all of the above. a mobile lerm platform is probibly only going to have the tonnage for the bap and not a lot else. im not saying the tc is better, only that it is useful. i also see a lot of lerm boats that have way more ammo than they can effectively use in a match and there is better uses for that tonnage.

That is the matter of running sub-optimal builds.

[ThreeStooges]

All lrm boats need to learn the most important lrm boating secret;Have and when to use back up lasers more than you lrm except the poor cptl-a1. Shove some smr/mrm on that one.

[Natural Predator]

The only acceptable gentlemen's lurm boat is the trebuchet. Everything else is a pretender.

[martian]

ThreeStooges, on 18 December 2021 - 04:10 PM, said:

All lrm boats need to learn the most important lrm boating secret;Have and when to use back up lasers more than you lrm except the poor cptl-a1. Shove some smr/mrm on that one.
...

Good job!