33 replies to this topic

[Kriegson]

I've been working on my scouting game using quick mechs with ECM getting behind the enemy team and targeting them so allies can do their thing. But it seems people often start looking around and then spot me, sometimes can even hit with missiles though I have ECM (not stealth armor) active.

Is there an indicator that tells you when someone has a lock on you? Does BAP allow you to lock onto someone who has ECM, even at longer ranges?
I do figure it's possible people who are in cover and getting hit with missiles, or are simply experienced would start to look around.

[Cyrilis]

if an enemy locks you on his radar or looses contact, there are two short, red light flashes in your cockpit indicating that you have been targeted.



Once you've seen it, you will recognize it easy.

BAP has a range of I think 120 or 125 meters. under that range, it will allow you to lock an enemy mech protected by ECM (unless there is a second hostile ECM nearby

[martian]

Kriegson, on 23 December 2021 - 04:59 AM, said:

I've been working on my scouting game using quick mechs with ECM getting behind the enemy team and targeting them so allies can do their thing.

Not a good idea.

Good LRM pilots can get their own locks.

Instead of standing still behind enemy 'Mechs, use your weapons to backstab them and actually kill them. This way you can help your team much more.

[Kriegson]

martian, on 23 December 2021 - 05:42 AM, said:

Not a good idea.

Good LRM pilots can get their own locks.

Instead of standing still behind enemy 'Mechs, use your weapons to backstab them and actually kill them. This way you can help your team much more.

Yeah I've found using a pheonix Hawk with an RAC2 and light PPC I can disrupt enemy ECM helping my team get locks and pound some fair damage into the unwary before running back into cover. It tends to work pretty well skirmishing with a light MG for crit seeking and medium pulse for a little more damage.
I can fight off lights and harass heavier mechs, when it becomes a full on brawl I tend to contribute fairly well it seems.
What's a good indicator of doing well? XP or match score?

Edited by Kriegson, 23 December 2021 - 06:15 AM.

[martian]

Kriegson, on 23 December 2021 - 06:15 AM, said:

Yeah I've found using a pheonix Hawk with an RAC2 and light PPC I can disrupt enemy ECM helping my team get locks and pound some fair damage into the unwary before running back into cover. It tends to work pretty well skirmishing with a light MG for crit seeking and medium pulse for a little more damage.
I can fight off lights and harass heavier mechs, when it becomes a full on brawl I tend to contribute fairly well it seems.

I do not know exact details of your build, but in my opinion combining RAC-2, Light PPC and Machine Guns is not a good idea. You have got LPPCs that you can use to fire and torso twist or jump away, RAC that you must keep on target and you can not torso twist, and short-ranged MGs. Do you think that you could "simplify" your loadout?

Kriegson, on 23 December 2021 - 06:15 AM, said:

What's a good indicator of doing well? XP or match score?

Match Score is better of these two. It is not perfect, but it can give you some idea how you contributed to the team effort.
XP can be boosted by using Premium Time, running Champion 'Mechs, etc. Imagine some player buying all these things. He would have twice XP than he had a week ago, even though his gameplay would be exactly the same. You can not do this with Match Score.


After the game you can compare your MS with the MS of the best players of your team.

Edited by martian, 23 December 2021 - 06:31 AM.

[Kriegson]

martian, on 23 December 2021 - 06:23 AM, said:

I do not know exact details of your build, but in my opinion combining RAC-2, Light PPC and Machine Guns is not a good idea. You have got LPPCs that you can use to fire and torso twist or jump away, RAC that you must keep on target and you can not torso twist, and short-ranged MGs. Do you think that you could "simplify" your loadout?

...

After the game you can compare your MS with the MS of the best players of your team.

I've give the match score a look!

I could certainly tweak the build, thoughts on LBX as an alternate to the RAC for dealing with lights and using with the LPPC for harassing?

I plan on getting a Griffon and using something like an MRM10 and ER Large laser with a small for lights/heat management to try as an alternative that can fire and TT away easily with some good peek and poke ability.

Edited by Kriegson, 23 December 2021 - 07:50 AM.

[martian]

Kriegson, on 23 December 2021 - 07:49 AM, said:

I could certainly tweak the build, thoughts on LBX as an alternate to the RAC for dealing with lights and using with the LPPC for harassing?

The problem is that ballistic weapons are usually quite heavy - especially for low-end medium 'Mechs such the Phoenix Hawk and they require ammo.

Perhaps you could try all-energy loadout.

Kriegson, on 23 December 2021 - 07:49 AM, said:

I plan on getting a Griffon and using something like an MRM10 and ER Large laser with a small for lights/heat management to try as an alternative that can fire and TT away easily with some good peek and poke ability.

Two things that I would like to mention:
1. The Griffin has quite broad chest. There are moments when it attracts a lot of fire. Quirks help with that and the Griffin is certainly playable, but I think I should mention it.

2. ER Large laser and MRM-10 is a quite anemic loadout. What variant exactly do you intend to buy?

[Kriegson]

martian, on 23 December 2021 - 08:11 AM, said:

The problem is that ballistic weapons are usually quite heavy - especially for low-end medium 'Mechs such the Phoenix Hawk and they require ammo.

Perhaps you could try all-energy loadout.

Hmm, I'll give it a shot. At least turn the ballistics to MG's and lasers/PPC's.
Edit;
Messing around I noticed it has the LPPC HSL Quirk, in testing anyhow it's pretty hilarious running 4 PPC's on it.

Quote

Two things that I would like to mention:
1. The Griffin has quite broad chest. There are moments when it attracts a lot of fire. Quirks help with that and the Griffin is certainly playable, but I think I should mention it.

2. ER Large laser and MRM-10 is a quite anemic loadout. What variant exactly do you intend to buy?

The Griffon 1N, 2 Small lasers, 1 ER Large and 10 MRM. Large and MRM for peeking/poking and small for brawling 36.5 firepower.

Edited by Kriegson, 23 December 2021 - 08:34 AM.

[martian]

Kriegson, on 23 December 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

Hmm, I'll give it a shot. At least turn the ballistics to MG's and lasers/PPC's.

Carrying one MGs is pointless and two are not much better. With three or four MGs it starts to get interesting.

Kriegson, on 23 December 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

The Griffon 1N, 2 Small lasers, 1 ER Large and 10 MRM. Large and MRM for peeking/poking and small for brawling 36.5 firepower.

1. Those two small lasers are useless.

2. The firepower would be just 26.5 points, not 36.5 points.

Do you have any specific reason why you want GRF-1N? GRF-2N carries the Guardian ECM suite.

Edited by martian, 23 December 2021 - 09:18 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Kriegson, on 23 December 2021 - 08:30 AM, said:

The Griffon 1N, 2 Small lasers, 1 ER Large and 10 MRM. Large and MRM for peeking/poking and small for brawling 36.5 firepower.

As martian has pointed out, that seems rather under-powered. I'm guessing you're using a standard engine and no endosteel, correct? Upgrading to a light engine and EndoSteel internal structure will allow you to upgrade your weaponry. Like this, for example:

https://mwo.nav-alph...ed5d0dc8_GRF-1N

I don't claim this is the BEST build, but its very similar to the one you're running now.

For the next 4 days, engines are 50% off, so I'd recommend upgrading to a light engine while it's cheap!

[An6ryMan69]

martian, on 23 December 2021 - 05:42 AM, said:

Good LRM pilots can get their own locks.

You must be referring to the very best 3-5% of LRM boat pilots; for the rest of us team target locks account for the vast majority of the damage we do.

I regularly dump 7-8 TONS of LRM's on targets beyond visual range before I close to direct fire range and start mixing lasers with my own LRM locks.

The biggest advantage that LRM's have, by far, is their ability to hammer targets that can't see you or shoot back; as soon as you start looking for line-of-sight target locks you give up that advantage and start taking alpha strikes in the face while you wait for your locks.

Sure, using UAV's helps mitigate this a little, but only a little, and good players shoot down UAV's in seconds, often faster than your lock times, even with a decent targeting computer.

One of the quickest ways to die as an LRM boat is to think you can openly trade damage with enemy laserboats or dakka builds.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 23 December 2021 - 11:07 AM.

[Horseman]

Kriegson, on 23 December 2021 - 04:59 AM, said:

I've been working on my scouting game using quick mechs with ECM getting behind the enemy team and targeting them so allies can do their thing. But it seems people often start looking around and then spot me, sometimes can even hit with missiles though I have ECM (not stealth armor) active.

ECM defeats sensors, it doesn't defeat Mk I Eyeball, Mk I Eardrum or Mk I Meatbrain (provide there is a functional one in the cockpit, of course). Your footsteps can still be heard, especially if your opponent is wearing headphones, and if you're close enough for your ECM to jam the opponent (120m) they WILL realize something's up.

Quote

Does BAP allow you to lock onto someone who has ECM, even at longer ranges?

ECM doesn't prevent locks, it reduces the range at which the enemy can lock you on their sensors.
A fully upgraded ECM (that is, both Enhanced ECM nodes in the skill tree - and if you're not getting both of them using your GSP/GXP then you're doing it wrong) will reduce this range by 75%. Default sensor range is 800, so this reduction makes you detectable at 200m - provided the enemy mech doesn't have BAP or other sensor boosts.

[D V Devnull]

Cyrilis, on 23 December 2021 - 05:33 AM, said:

if an enemy locks you on his radar or looses contact, there are two short, red light flashes in your cockpit indicating that you have been targeted.

<<< video snipped to avoid excessive scroll >>>

Once you've seen it, you will recognize it easy.

You're seeing some Red light flashes from Radar Deprivation alerting you? It has always been Blue flashes for me during battle in MWO over the entire time that I've existed here.

~D. V. "Not sure how you're getting a Red flash when they get Blue ones..." Devnull

[ScrapIron Prime]

D V Devnull, on 31 December 2021 - 05:54 AM, said:

You're seeing some Red light flashes from Radar Deprivation alerting you? It has always been Blue flashes for me during battle in MWO over the entire time that I've existed here.

~D. V. "Not sure how you're getting a Red flash when they get Blue ones..." Devnull

Maybe he took the other pill.

[JediPanther]

Kriegson, on 23 December 2021 - 04:59 AM, said:

I've been working on my scouting game using quick mechs with ECM getting behind the enemy team and targeting them so allies can do their thing. But it seems people often start looking around and then spot me, sometimes can even hit with missiles though I have ECM (not stealth armor) active.

Is there an indicator that tells you when someone has a lock on you? Does BAP allow you to lock onto someone who has ECM, even at longer ranges?
I do figure it's possible people who are in cover and getting hit with missiles, or are simply experienced would start to look around.

Bap should counter one ecm near it but if you are wolf packing with other ecms the overlapping ecms will nullify the bap. Only a uav would counter the wolf pack of ecms. Bap has about 150m depending on the mech's quirks and if you added sensor range skills.

If you were narked you'd see a red narc indication on your hud. Tag,last time I checked,gives no indication on hud unless you see the tag beam itself. Ecm has been nerfed a bit so you'd want the ecm skill nodes to bring it back to it use to be or close to it. Ecm and stealth as well doesn't make your mech have invisibility as some people think that is what they do. People can still see your mech by looking for it since ecm/stealth doesn't affect the mech model's geometry. Only the sensors.

Stealth mechs can be spoted too without being countered by narc,ppcs or tag if someone is using the night vision or thermal nodes and knows a stealth mech of some type is near. A combination of green and greys for colors on your mech with a pattern to break up solid colors can make it harder for someone looking in those other modes to spot you.

About the only ways you can be spoted in steath if some one is looking for you in other vision modes is:
1. They see your mech silhouette.
2. They see your mech move.
3. You shoot them and they see the flash of a gun,the laser or missile launch etc.
4. Doesn't happen often but they might just walk into your mech and then they see your mech.

[Cyrilis]

D V Devnull, on 31 December 2021 - 05:54 AM, said:

You're seeing some Red light flashes from Radar Deprivation alerting you? It has always been Blue flashes for me during battle in MWO over the entire time that I've existed here.

~D. V. "Not sure how you're getting a Red flash when they get Blue ones..." Devnull

I've been searching for a video on the net showing "the flash" (and yes, it is blue, not red as stated in my first post... my bad)
I am not aware of a flash related to radar depriviation, but I'm happy to check in a private match if you want to...

Edited by Cyrilis, 03 January 2022 - 06:31 AM.

[Void Angel]

By my recollection, Radar Deprivation only gives you that flash and chirp when someone loses lock. There is no warning for someone acquiring lock on you prior to their missile launch, unless that's been changed or I'm totally misremembering the results of my testing.

[Hobbles v]

They could simply be detecting you on sensors.

Base sensors are 800m
Base sensors + Skill Tree = 1080m
Add a Active probe on top of that and you get 1280m

If you didnt skill your ECM with enhanced ecm systems in the sensors tree you ecm will reduce your detection range to 70% of the max to the following.

800m becomes 560m
1080 becomes 756m
1280 becomes 896m

basically un-upgraded ECM does little for you, except make lock ons take longer, as the above ranges are common mid to long range combat ranges.

If you upgrade ECM fully that detection range goes from 70% of max sensors to 25%.

800m becomes 200m
1080 becomes 270m
1280 becomes 320m

Also if you get into range of an enemy active probe (120M) they will cancel your ecm protection regardless if they see you or not. So if you hide behind a guy with a probe, his ally 600m away will easily detect you if he glances that way.

Your ecm will also give you away if you are behind someone inside of 180m as thier hud will show signs of interference (squiggly appearance) this will trigger them to look around for you.

Also if they have seismic sensors, they may notice you if you get within 200m

Lastly Targeting computers, command consoles and some mech quirks can further increase sensor range. but they have much smaller bonuses than skills and active probes.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Void Angel, on 04 January 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

By my recollection, Radar Deprivation only gives you that flash and chirp when someone loses lock. There is no warning for someone acquiring lock on you prior to their missile launch, unless that's been changed or I'm totally misremembering the results of my testing.

You are not mistaken. It works the way you described. Take note though, that the flash is related to target lock, not missile lock

[D V Devnull]

Hobbles v, on 04 January 2022 - 12:11 PM, said:

Also if you get into range of an enemy active probe (120M) they will cancel your ecm protection regardless if they see you or not. So if you hide behind a guy with a probe, his ally 600m away will easily detect you if he glances that way.

This only works if they are using an I.S. BAP (Inner Sphere Beagle Active Probe) to counter an Enemy Mech during combat, and the Enemy ECM being countered must not be in a state where a 2nd ECM or some Stealth Armor is protecting them from the I.S. BAP's effects and capabilities. If someone is using the CAP (Clan Active Probe, either Light or Full) instead because of using a Clan Mech in combat, then they are never given the ability to do any ECM Counter whatsoever in battle, even if it's a Clan ECM that they're trying to break past. If you don't believe me, all you must do is check it out in battle. This might have been different about 6 years ago, but now the CAP is severely underpowered against any ECM brought against it, even though indications in Lore itself would have suggested otherwise. There's no question that the CAP within the MWO environment needs to be brought back into parity with I.S. BAP some long time ago, because CAP is very nearly worthless right now to equip for use. Hmm... I wonder if The Cauldron would be willing to get that one corrected???

~D. V. "Only the I.S. BAP can do ECM Counter anymore... Clan Active Probe does not have that ability." Devnull



(p.s.: Even though it happens that I have no intent for anything malicious, you should not get me started about something which I noticed regarding the Clan Light Active Probe in particular, because such a whistle-blowing discussion would become everyone's nightmare.)