127 replies to this topic

[dubstep albatross]

KaptinOrk, on 30 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

I feel like NASCAR doesn't really happen in T5/4, I've really only seen it in the T3 games that I play. I don't get why it happens, the enemies are in front of us, why are we turning and running instead of shooting them?

I experience more frequent and more dramatic aggressive rotations in Tier 3 games. I believe the reason is two fold.

First, murderballs are much more common (and more effective) in higher tiers. Instead of one mech pointing at an enemy, you have may have three or more, with no cooldowns between them (coordinated focus fire, usually by staggered exposing and trading). This punishes the enemy for exposing and makes the cost of their trades more expensive.

Second, which is a direct result of the first thing, you never want to be directly in front of your enemy and their guns. You would rather expose when you have their sides (or better yet their back). This gives you an extra time advantage as they have to turn to face, then acquire a target. This can also give you a trading advantage because often their cover is negated.

More skilled players tend to know the maps better and tend to understand positioning better. Not only that, but they also tend to have greater situational awareness. Basically, they know when they might be being flanked and they attempt to counter it. Thus, Nascar. Honk honk.

[martian]

KaptinOrk, on 30 December 2021 - 07:08 AM, said:

I feel like NASCAR doesn't really happen in T5/4, I've really only seen it in the T3 games that I play. I don't get why it happens, the enemies are in front of us, why are we turning and running instead of shooting them?

I think that the reason lies in the following:
1. You can face the enemy team head-on.
2. But it is better to hit enemy from the side or from the rear. Their armor is weaker, they do not expect attack from that side, etc.
3. One or two light or low-end medium 'Mechs decide to flank or backstab, other mobile 'Mechs follow.
4.Remaining heavy and Assault 'Mechs see them and think "I am not facing the enemy team head on, when it's effectively 8 vs. 12" and run to follow those flankers.
5. The result is a kilometre long line of 'Mechs with Locusts and Fleas leading the line and Annihilators closing it.

There is still some hope if the enemy team does the same at the same moment on the other side of the hill/HPG transmitter/etc. Then it is effectively a draw and the true nascar.

However, if the enemy team sticks together .. well, it's often "Game Over" for the nascaring team. Either:

• abandoned Assault 'Mechs are eaten by enemy lights or steamrolled by the entire enemy team or
  
• flanking lights run into the entire team are instantly killed. When the score is 0:4, then there is not much what you could so.

This is not a true nascaring, it is more like unsuccessful flanking attempt.

[Michael Abt]

martian, on 30 December 2021 - 07:15 AM, said:

(...)
If this is just a random defeat because his "half-time fighting/half-time capping" tactics did not work in this particular game, then some small PSR loss means nothing.
(...)

Maps also play a role. On a big map like Alpine caps are more important like say Mining. Anyhow, the difficulty for the light is to determine when to switch from cap to combat mode, and vice versa.

martian, on 30 December 2021 - 07:15 AM, said:

(...)
And if he always uses the "caps only" tactics in Conquest, his PSR goes down and eventually he will move to a Tier that is the most suitable for him and his play style.
(...)

The debate would be how much a game mode should be factored in for PSR. For the current system you are right with your assessment. If you don't adept your playstle it will reflect in your tier.


You could also argue that about the other topic considering mech choice. The decision which mechs you picked is factored into your tier through your performance over time. If more mech variation is wanted in higher tiers, some adjustments may be warranted. In a way that already somewhat happened via quirks. Since there are so many factors to consider in terms of balance there is no easy solution.

Therefore the current system is fair in that regard everyone has the same freedom to pick a good mech. And, taking a look around in this thread, if your tier doesn't reflect the potential of the mech, then it is probably on you.

Edited by Michael Abt, 30 December 2021 - 07:47 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

I still maintain that either the objectives need changed in Conquest or capping in that game mode needs to be worth a bit more match score. Its counter-intuitive to a lot of people.

Mind you, I've LOST this argument numerous times, but I still make it. Bug in the ear, as it were. And without drama.

[Captain Caveman DE]

ScrapIron Prime, on 30 December 2021 - 08:01 AM, said:

I still maintain that either the objectives need changed in Conquest or capping in that game mode needs to be worth a bit more match score. Its counter-intuitive to a lot of people.

Mind you, I've LOST this argument numerous times, but I still make it. Bug in the ear, as it were. And without drama.

well, if we're talking "dreamworld" (not meant as snarky, but as in "I wish they.."), they should give EVERY mode beside skirmish a goal and meaning, other than just "go and kill 12 dudes". assault doesn't have it, conquest rarely has it, and incursion........... .............. oh, and let's not forget that 1 mode that shall not be named, that HAD an alternative goal that people sh*t on from every angle.

but hey, we all know it's not gonna happen, because LOTS of different reasons. so.. yeah:
QP = skirmish "23/7".

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 30 December 2021 - 08:13 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Captain Caveman DE, on 30 December 2021 - 08:11 AM, said:

well, if we're talking "dreamworld" (not meant as snarky, but as in "I wish they.."), they should give EVERY mode beside skirmish a goal and meaning, other than just "go and kill 12 dudes". assault doesn't have it, conquest rarely has it, and incursion........... .............. oh, and let's not forget that 1 mode that shall not be named, that HAD an alternative goal that people sh*t on from every angle.

but hey, we all know it's not gonna happen, because LOTS of different reasons. so.. yeah:
QP = skirmish "23/7".

Well to be fair, this is a first person shooter, and the first rule of first person shooter is to shoot the persons first.

But otherwise, yes exactly. The game modes don't really mean anything, and you're supposed to ignore their objectives.

Writing meaningful new game modes would be a bit of an effort. Editing an XML value in a table so that capping is worth a bit more in one of those game modes is beyond trivial, which is why I suggest it, and it could happen if Cauldron got behind it. (Which they have not.)

[Captain Caveman DE]

ScrapIron Prime, on 30 December 2021 - 08:19 AM, said:

Well to be fair, this is a first person shooter, and the first rule of first person shooter is to shoot the persons first.

But otherwise, yes exactly. The game modes don't really mean anything, and you're supposed to ignore their objectives.

Writing meaningful new game modes would be a bit of an effort. Editing an XML value in a table so that capping is worth a bit more in one of those game modes is beyond trivial, which is why I suggest it, and it could happen if Cauldron got behind it. (Which they have not.)

the thing is.. it isn't done with an xml change.
let's say it is: we increase the cap-point-rate and we also increase rewards.
that's what we want if we sacrifice our time for capping instead of killing, right?

now look at what it does to ~70% (spitballing here) of the overall populace.
Locustplayer sees conquest, wants rewards, runs to the next-cap-point, sit's there..
You, I and a lot of others chuckle and shoot his leg off, relax and shoot the next leg.
also, "we" know that it's enough to have 2 caps, kill stuff and do as we do ever.

they / we'd have to rebuild how conquest works (at least in QP), keeping in mind whatever people do and how they do it.
it's no easy task, I'm afraid, and an xml-change here or there fix things in the game, maybe
-but it doesn't fix people. and it doesn't fix however they play their mechs, either.

conquest is a great mode that works for factionplay, and seems to work for comp as well.
imo it fails horribly in QP because of QPs very nature;

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 30 December 2021 - 08:49 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Well stated, and fair point.