33 replies to this topic

[ScrapIron Prime]

Well yeah, teamwork is the key. While it’s straightforward to overcome a team of brawlers or snipers at a distance, when a fast moving coordinated team gets in your shorts, you need coordination to effectively fight back. If you don’t have that, the lights will pick your bones. That’s what they do… right up until someone shoots them… but without teamwork that’s less likely to happen in this scenario,

‘’Teamwork is OP.”

[martian]

Remington1911, on 28 December 2021 - 05:33 AM, said:

One lance of LT mechs working together is much more dangerous then one lance of heavy or assaults....and Med's are just flat worthless unless they are fast enough to keep up with the LT mechs.....and even at that they are a much bigger target for the LT.

I had a lot of fun and good results when using the Hellspawn that I won in the October challenge.
Is The Free Hellspawn Good For Anything?

Remington1911, on 28 December 2021 - 05:33 AM, said:

One lance of LT mechs working together is much more dangerous then one lance of heavy or assaults...
It is about time someone looks at game footage and sees what a wolfpack of LT's can do. I have blown the legs off assaults or stripped armor enough to say, Bravo left leg no armor....and that is it for him. If they are in a group of less than 3 then you just dance around them let them shoot each other while they try to shoot you, then run away and look for another small group, or better yet a solo.

And one lance of heavies and Assaults working together is not dangerous?

[Darian DelFord]

Remington1911, on 28 December 2021 - 05:33 AM, said:

You are a fool if you don't think this happens. You have seen it, and you have likely done it. I have only been here a few months and even I have done it.

One lance of LT mechs working together is much more dangerous then one lance of heavy or assaults....and Med's are just flat worthless unless they are fast enough to keep up with the LT mechs.....and even at that they are a much bigger target for the LT.

It is about time someone looks at game footage and sees what a wolfpack of LT's can do. I have blown the legs off assaults or stripped armor enough to say, Bravo left leg no armor....and that is it for him. If they are in a group of less than 3 then you just dance around them let them shoot each other while they try to shoot you, then run away and look for another small group, or better yet a solo.

LOL

Ummm Yes, a coordinated group of 4 lights mechs on comms is very very dangerous....... Guess What.....

A coordinated group of 4 Heavy Mechs or 4 assault mechs on comms is very very dangerous........ Guess What......

A coordinated group of 4 light mechs on comms, versus a group of 4 assault mechs on comms, my money is on the assault mechs....

Make sure your point / counter points are equal

Edited by Darian DelFord, 28 December 2021 - 11:36 AM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Remington1911, on 28 December 2021 - 05:33 AM, said:

You are a fool if you don't think this happens. You have seen it, and you have likely done it. I have only been here a few months and even I have done it.

One lance of LT mechs working together is much more dangerous then one lance of heavy or assaults....and Med's are just flat worthless unless they are fast enough to keep up with the LT mechs.....and even at that they are a much bigger target for the LT.

It is about time someone looks at game footage and sees what a wolfpack of LT's can do. I have blown the legs off assaults or stripped armor enough to say, Bravo left leg no armor....and that is it for him. If they are in a group of less than 3 then you just dance around them let them shoot each other while they try to shoot you, then run away and look for another small group, or better yet a solo.

dude, here's some well meant advice:
instead of attacking everybody who disagrees with your .. "assessment", maybe look them up on Jarls.
then look where you're at and realise that MAYBE these people MIGHT know what they're talking about.
MAYBE there's a lesson to be learned, and it surely isn't for MWO-only.

..or just stay on your path. some people view stubbornness as a virtue; see where it get's you.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 28 December 2021 - 02:47 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Darian DelFord, on 28 December 2021 - 11:36 AM, said:

LOL

Ummm Yes, a coordinated group of 4 lights mechs on comms is very very dangerous....... Guess What.....

A coordinated group of 4 Heavy Mechs or 4 assault mechs on comms is very very dangerous........ Guess What......

A coordinated group of 4 light mechs on comms, versus a group of 4 assault mechs on comms, my money is on the assault mechs....

Make sure your point / counter points are equal

I disagree a well oiled team of lights can eat a well oiled team of assaults in seconds.. just by sheer speed, terrain and server latency buffs..

If they all had the exact same ping times i'd still go with the lights as they boat more damage unless its spiders or ravens or some other worthless mech..

What would kill both is a team of Arctic wolves or Cicadas maybe even Blackjacks.. they are super deadly now..

Edited by Nomad Tech, 28 December 2021 - 06:00 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:54 PM, said:

I disagree a well oiled team of lights can eat a well oiled team of assaults in seconds.. just by sheer speed, terrain and server latency buffs..

If they all had the exact same ping times i'd still go with the lights as they boat more damage unless its spiders or ravens or some other worthless mech..

What would kill both is a team of Arctic wolves or Cicadas maybe even Blackjacks.. they are super deadly now..

Well now I think someone needs to challenge you to a private lobby fight and record it. Their team of 4 assault mechs versus your team of 4 lights, Light team picks the map.

Sunday, Sunday, Sunday! Tickets only 10 cBills, kids get in Free!

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 28 December 2021 - 06:34 PM.

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:54 PM, said:

I disagree a well oiled team of lights can eat a well oiled team of assaults in seconds.. just by sheer speed, terrain and server latency buffs..

Have you actually tried to play in a coordinated team of lights against a coordinated team of heavies or Assaults?

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:54 PM, said:

If they all had the exact same ping times i'd still go with the lights as they boat more damage unless its spiders or ravens or some other worthless mech..

How can "a well oiled team of lights" "boat more damage" than "a well oiled team of assaults"?

Nomad Tech, on 28 December 2021 - 05:54 PM, said:

What would kill both is a team of Arctic wolves or Cicadas maybe even Blackjacks.. they are super deadly now..

Wut?

[Escef]

Captain Caveman DE, on 28 December 2021 - 02:46 PM, said:

instead of attacking everybody who disagrees with your .. "assessment", maybe look them up on Jarls.

A side note on this. You don't have to be "good" at the game to have valid insights. Heavens forbid it, I constantly describe myself as mediocre at the game (I think Jarl's has me within one standard deviation of average), but that doesn't invalidate what I have to say. Being right is about being right, not about being good at what you are doing. I've encountered plenty of good players (or at least ones that are better than I am at the game) that have some really weird ideas about what the game should be and what would solve balance problems.

My unimpressive showings are largely due to being hyper aggressive. Some people because they have physical limitations (MWO attracts an older userbase, some of us have compromised reflexes due to age or the result of a lifetime of abusing our bodies to make a living). Some folks are just IRL poor, and are playing the game because it's free and will run on their glorified potato of a gaming rig, a rig whose performance limits their own.

Now, I'll come right out and say that a lot of us mediocre players aren't the best analysts in the world, and will attribute bad experiences to the wrong things. Like I said, I know I'm overly aggressive (and impatient), and that is usually what gets me killed in the game. Also, at 45 years old, I just don't have the reflexes I had 10 or 20 years ago. (I also play plenty of sub-optimal mechs.) That said, I'm a damned good analyst. And I can step outside of my own ego and give a decent AAR (after action report). However, no amount of analysis can fill in for a lack of vital information. Nor can it overpower some people's strange ideological ignorance (like, for example, the people that say boating doesn't happen in canon, while blithely ignoring the Hunchback 4P, Longbow, Komodo, Wasp 1W, etc.).

Long story short, Jarl's will tell you if a person is good at the game, not if they have good insights and analysis. While there is often correlation, any good scientist or statistician will tell you that correlation does not equal causation.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Escef, on 29 December 2021 - 05:06 AM, said:

A side note on this. You don't have to be "good" at the game to have valid insights. Heavens forbid it, I constantly describe myself as mediocre at the game (I think Jarl's has me within one standard deviation of average), but that doesn't invalidate what I have to say. Being right is about being right, not about being good at what you are doing. I've encountered plenty of good players (or at least ones that are better than I am at the game) that have some really weird ideas about what the game should be and what would solve balance problems.

My unimpressive showings are largely due to being hyper aggressive. Some people because they have physical limitations (MWO attracts an older userbase, some of us have compromised reflexes due to age or the result of a lifetime of abusing our bodies to make a living). Some folks are just IRL poor, and are playing the game because it's free and will run on their glorified potato of a gaming rig, a rig whose performance limits their own.

Now, I'll come right out and say that a lot of us mediocre players aren't the best analysts in the world, and will attribute bad experiences to the wrong things. Like I said, I know I'm overly aggressive (and impatient), and that is usually what gets me killed in the game. Also, at 45 years old, I just don't have the reflexes I had 10 or 20 years ago. (I also play plenty of sub-optimal mechs.) That said, I'm a damned good analyst. And I can step outside of my own ego and give a decent AAR (after action report). However, no amount of analysis can fill in for a lack of vital information. Nor can it overpower some people's strange ideological ignorance (like, for example, the people that say boating doesn't happen in canon, while blithely ignoring the Hunchback 4P, Longbow, Komodo, Wasp 1W, etc.).

Long story short, Jarl's will tell you if a person is good at the game, not if they have good insights and analysis. While there is often correlation, any good scientist or statistician will tell you that correlation does not equal causation.

the point I was trying to deliver was not that "better players are right, git gud". sorry if I was unclear.

my point was "if someone does things better than you, have a look WHY he does better. here you even get answers from people, explaining why X and Y work better for him and how he does stuff"

LEARNING and (training to some degree) is the key to getting better in a lot of things, and MWO is no exception.
Jarls is just a simple and easy tool to judge for yourself "is this person giving me a good hint that I should consider, or is it somebody with no clue whatsoever and I should doubt that advice".


at the end of the day, people can complain all they like, and spam the forums with that. heck, they can play the game at any level they can and like - (outside the match) I don't judge. it's a free world, a free game and everybody should have their fun the way they plan to.
it's the point where people come here and claim "X does not work, Y is broken", and it's clearly not for the majority, where I say: look at yourself, look at others - learn from them, if you want to get better.
complaining yourself to the top works in no game/sport/thing in life what-so-ever

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 29 December 2021 - 08:16 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Captain Caveman DE, on 29 December 2021 - 08:16 AM, said:

my point was "if someone does things better than you, have a look WHY he does better. here you even get answers from people, explaining why X and Y work better for him and how he does stuff"

Everybody frame this, right here. This is the key.

If you die to T1 players and hate the game, it is likely that the T1 players do a better job of punishing you for the mistake you just made while lower tier players are slower to do so. You may not even realize that what you're doing IS a mistake, but that's part of learning. Temet Nosce and stuff.

[Escef]

Captain Caveman DE, on 29 December 2021 - 08:16 AM, said:

the point I was trying to deliver was not that "better players are right, git gud". sorry if I was unclear.

I didn't think that was what you were trying to say, the problem is that it would be easy for some folks to walk away with that message all the same. All I'm saying is that some us are like sports coaches, here. We're past our prime and can't perform well enough to compete with the younger/faster/stronger fellas. But we still have valuable insight. And all of the top tier competitive players? Well, if they're so good, why are they playing MWO and not some game where they can make real money with their supposedly awesome skills? Keep in mind that the best player on the Paw Sox is in the Paw Sox because they can't (or at least haven't proven they can) compete in the major league. Sure, they're better than anyone on your rag-tag company softball team, but they probably aren't as good as they bill themselves as, either.

[GARION26]

Escef, on 29 December 2021 - 09:21 AM, said:

I didn't think that was what you were trying to say, the problem is that it would be easy for some folks to walk away with that message all the same. All I'm saying is that some us are like sports coaches, here. We're past our prime and can't perform well enough to compete with the younger/faster/stronger fellas. But we still have valuable insight. And all of the top tier competitive players? Well, if they're so good, why are they playing MWO and not some game where they can make real money with their supposedly awesome skills? Keep in mind that the best player on the Paw Sox is in the Paw Sox because they can't (or at least haven't proven they can) compete in the major league. Sure, they're better than anyone on your rag-tag company softball team, but they probably aren't as good as they bill themselves as, either.

Look I'm a late 40's Tier 5 shlub playing on a tiny laptop with a non gaming mouse and only reasonable internet speeds who plays the builds I feel like regardless if they are meta.

My crappy play results is a result of all of the above.

But here's the thing I also realize that people higher ranked almost certainly understand the game better then I do. They aren't just there because of physical advantages, they are also there because they generally understand the game better. Being old and having played all the previous MW titles doesn't make me a better judge of how this game works.

I'll happily debate statistics and math of MWO with anyone here and think my knowledge of those things and years of gaming experience with various titles and formats give me reasonable insights.

But when talking about understanding the game I'm not a 'retired past my prime major league player who is now an insightful baseball manager.'
I'm a 'retired, past my prime backyard softball player who is trying to teach a professional baseball player the insights of the game that their years of intensive baseball training (camps, school, club, minor leagues) somehow missed but I have somehow captured."

Yes the best gamers here may not be able to (or choose to) compete on the highest levels of esports where the big money is - but they are still far more likely to really understand the game better then I do.

It's okay I don't have to be the equivalent of Natasha Kerensky coaching Phelan Ward. I can just be joe blow local agromech/planetary defense pilot and do my best to shoot straight.

Edited by GARION26, 29 December 2021 - 09:40 AM.

[Escef]

GARION26, on 29 December 2021 - 09:38 AM, said:

But here's the thing I also realize that people higher ranked almost certainly understand the game better then I do.

Quite frankly, I wager a lot of them are where they are because of organized groups with a good, insightful shot-caller. A lot of the tier 2 and 3 players got where they are because someone else pointed them in the direction where their skills would be useful. You put them in with a group of random schlubs and they'll yell at us for how much we suck, but when push comes to shove, most of them are only marginally better than anyone else. As the old truism/sarcastic comment goes, "teamwork is OP".

I recall there was an evening where me and a bunch of the other Barely Adequate Gamers [BAGr] and associated folks were tooling around in the group queue, doing more or less ok. Until we ran afoul of a coordinated team of spotters and LRMers, and they were lighting people up good. We got irked by this, so we decided to level the playing field, and dropped as an all-ECM 8-man. We rolled people. We were dominating with a combination of modest team work and ECM cover... And then we came up against a mixed team of Empyreal/HouseOfLords. They rolled us HARD. I was the only one on my team to score a kill, and I think that was because the fella that came at me smelt blood in the water when he saw the twin LRM15s on my Hellbringer, but ignored the mix of 7 ER lasers (3 mediums and 4 smalls, iirc). He face-hugged me and blocked his teammates from supporting him, and I just melted down his Ebon Jaguar's CT. I wager the rest of his team gave him a lot of crap for that, his ego turned what should have been a 12-0 win into a 12-1.

So, those high tier players? A lot of them aren't that much better than the schlubs. But some of them are also damned good. And even the top tier players aren't immune to catching a case of stupid.

[Captain Caveman DE]

Escef, on 29 December 2021 - 10:20 AM, said:

Quite frankly, I wager a lot of them are where they are because of organized groups with a good, insightful shot-caller. A lot of the tier 2 and 3 players got where they are because someone else pointed them in the direction where their skills would be useful. You put them in with a group of random schlubs and they'll yell at us for how much we suck, but when push comes to shove, most of them are only marginally better than anyone else. As the old truism/sarcastic comment goes, "teamwork is OP".

I recall there was an evening where me and a bunch of the other Barely Adequate Gamers [BAGr] and associated folks were tooling around in the group queue, doing more or less ok. Until we ran afoul of a coordinated team of spotters and LRMers, and they were lighting people up good. We got irked by this, so we decided to level the playing field, and dropped as an all-ECM 8-man. We rolled people. We were dominating with a combination of modest team work and ECM cover... And then we came up against a mixed team of Empyreal/HouseOfLords. They rolled us HARD. I was the only one on my team to score a kill, and I think that was because the fella that came at me smelt blood in the water when he saw the twin LRM15s on my Hellbringer, but ignored the mix of 7 ER lasers (3 mediums and 4 smalls, iirc). He face-hugged me and blocked his teammates from supporting him, and I just melted down his Ebon Jaguar's CT. I wager the rest of his team gave him a lot of crap for that, his ego turned what should have been a 12-0 win into a 12-1.

So, those high tier players? A lot of them aren't that much better than the schlubs. But some of them are also damned good. And even the top tier players aren't immune to catching a case of stupid.

dude, totally true. to a degree.
teamwork is OP when done right, and years ago you could see a night&day difference; same player in fw/gp and in solo.
we had plenty of competent factionplayers who did MORE than fine in that environment, yet that same people struggled to do fine in QP.
it is however NOT a matter of skill, but of being used to do stuff this or that way; a good teamplayer in faction needs another skillset than a good soloist in yoloplay. switching between those 2 sets is HARD.
whenever I ran a fun faction-night and did 2-3 soloplays after, those where usually HORRIBLE (for and to me); in faction where I can rely on my team, I (like EVERYBODY, not just me) can do stuff that is impossible in QP, and when you get used to that, it's hard to switch your brain off again and 'turn right'.
otoh everybody who does faction knows those 1-2 yolosolos that drop in on your side, does what he knows "is right" from Quickplay - and consequently drags himself AND his side down with whatever yolos usually do (mainly not listening to and playing as part of the team).

why all those stories?
I firmly believe that stats don't tell you everything, but they tell you A LOT. and I need the above to explain.
anybody dropping solo in QP who's at the higher end of Jarls does something right more often than wrong. plain and simple.
some people that live up in faction can't adjust their playstyle to Quickplay and maybe the stats show it here and there, but if they're good, they'll still end up high on Jarls.

consequently, or even more so, ending up high on Jarls probably is skill to a degree as a group can't and won't carry your 'stats' usually. it's more quite the opposite, tbh;
a GOOD faction match with 11 proper teammates against 12 proper enemies is a joy for all 24 - but besides that it also is competing against each other to a good degree.
example*: whenever I broke 2k dmg, I knew that the rest of my team played a bit timid. whenever I broke 3k, I'm a) probably without group and solo in faction b.) the rest is horribly timid and we've probably lost it by a fair margin.
if it's a good game, EVERYBODY (in-team) fights to break 1-1,5k.
consequently: the better the team you've got around, the lower your Matchscore & damage will be.

so no.. haven't seen anybody carried beyond the 90% mark on Jarls. everybody there does some thing right. yes, you can game some of those numbers Jarls relies on, but hey: you can game any system.
**added: and yes; just because someone does %something% right to put him at a certain mark in list, it doesn't make him a great player or a nice human being to hang out with. also there's methods "up there", that get you up there and keep you there that many of us don't agree with;
there's a lot of stuff I like many other wish were different, but they aren't. and given that, certain things aren't "fun" or "good play" or even something I outright wouldn't do and call "bad play" - but it's effective for the individual non the less.
and we all can&have to learn from that. I don't have to like dmg-farming for example; but I have to realise that it in general improves the numbers for many players and prepare for the fact that it's being used as such. consequently, there's also an opportunity to use it against some.
Or I don't like to have assaults sitting in sniperspots on pristine armour - yet I have to realise that it happens and that it's probably less wasted there than with a yolosolo in the front, who makes that one bad push every match and puts his team to 0:1 in 30seconds. and here's opportunity again.

well going on for too long anyway.. have a good one




*everybody not familiar with faction: that is 1/2/3k with up to FOUR mechs and 48targets, which broken down isn't that much really. it's not the same as the same dmg in QP, as factionmatches are longer.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 29 December 2021 - 04:12 PM.