18 replies to this topic

[Czerno Alpha]

I just single handedly destroyed the enemy base in an incursion game. They essentially ignored me until I had wrecked most of it, and I was able to dodge them through the last bit. We win, obviously, but my MMR went down because I had never engaged the enemy, I had run one battery, and then assaulted the base.

So, essentially I was punished for playing the objective, even though no one else was. I took advantage of the distraction provided by my team to get things done, and then red arrows on the match summary screen.

Is this intended behavior for the Matchmaker? Because it seems kinda mean to punish someone for playing the game mode the way it's intended.

For the record, not mad, just confused. I know that right now, MMR means very little and the matchmaker is FUBAR.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

Approach every match like team deathmatch. The objectives don't really matter and don't give you as much cbills or match score. None of the gamemodes are actually "modes". If you don't shoot things, you won't get as much match score. Shoot things, have fun, profit!

Edited by Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-, 16 January 2022 - 12:02 PM.

[pbiggz]

Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-, on 16 January 2022 - 12:01 PM, said:

Approach every match like team deathmatch. The objectives don't really matter and don't give you as much cbills or match score. None of the gamemodes are actually "modes". If you don't shoot things, you won't get as much match score. Shoot things, have fun, profit!

Essentially this.

Our game modes are not much better than they were in beta. They're a bunch of different flavours of team death match. Some have extra steps.

I expect one of the main reasons people complain about maps so much is that, absent meaningful objectives, most of our maps get ignored. People just go to the middle and toilet bowl. It is a great shame.

[Gagis]

The playerbase, at least the forum goes, loudly opposed all plans to make the skill rating based on win/loss ratio.

And the match score cannot reward base destruction and cap very much since those activities usually do not contribute much to winning, so that would be giving crooked incentives.

[John Bronco]

How were you punished? You won the match and got paid for it.

PSR is not a reward system.

[PocketYoda]

Czerno Alpha, on 16 January 2022 - 11:41 AM, said:

I just single handedly destroyed the enemy base in an incursion game. They essentially ignored me until I had wrecked most of it, and I was able to dodge them through the last bit. We win, obviously, but my MMR went down because I had never engaged the enemy, I had run one battery, and then assaulted the base.

So, essentially I was punished for playing the objective, even though no one else was. I took advantage of the distraction provided by my team to get things done, and then red arrows on the match summary screen.

Is this intended behavior for the Matchmaker? Because it seems kinda mean to punish someone for playing the game mode the way it's intended.

For the record, not mad, just confused. I know that right now, MMR means very little and the matchmaker is FUBAR.

This game is all about the mech damage sorry to say.

[Relishcakes]

John Bronco, on 16 January 2022 - 01:17 PM, said:

How were you punished? You won the match and got paid for it.

PSR is not a reward system.

They were saying that they were essentially penalized on psr for playing to the objective to secure the win instead of going in on combat.

[Tarl Cabot]

Relishcakes, on 16 January 2022 - 05:00 PM, said:

They were saying that they were essentially penalized on psr for playing to the objective to secure the win instead of going in on combat.

Objectives helps narrow down the route taken. Incursion drops shouldn't really about taking the base but to draw the reds back to you, to finish them off piecemeal. But depending on how the game went, if the "winning" team prioritized the base over the reds and allowed the reds to "farm" them for points, thus for the winning side it become a pyrrhic victory.

All of the modes except skirmish allows a team to end the game without having to hunt down the last few reds but it should not be the primary objective. Use the objectives to force the reds to do something different then the normal go to center of map. When used in that way it makes for some interesting fights. Reds are either setup to end the opposing team piecemeal, but I have seen there the reds are clustered without clear lines of fire and out in the open, boxed in.

It would be interesting to see the end match results. Did more of the Reds move up in PSR while the winning side went down? Really dependent on how the match progressed until that final bell was rung.

[justcallme A S H]

Another thread with the 'I shot the inatimate object in a FPS and wondered why I was ranked down'.

Yawn. If everyone was highly rewarded for doing this then far FAR too many lower skill players would end up in higher skill games and they would complain even more than they do now.


Please watch Brios' video that explains how PSR works very well

[Sjorpha]

justcallme A S H, on 16 January 2022 - 06:11 PM, said:

Another thread with the 'I shot the inatimate object in a FPS and wondered why I was ranked down'.

Yawn. If everyone was highly rewarded for doing this then far FAR too many lower skill players would end up in higher skill games and they would complain even more than they do now.

If the psr system simply measured winning and losing over time rather than all this secondary bs we wouldn't need to have the conversation.

Of course "shooting inanimate objects" can't be rewarded in the current system. But that's because it's usually a losing move, not because of some stupid principle regarding the move itself. If it was a winning more often than not it would be pretty stupid to not reward it.

Perverse incentives are unavoidable as long as one insists on diluting the formula with secondary stats.

If op's attack on the base was actually the winning move in that match then his complaint is quite valid. If your position is that attacking the base, capping the points or whatever it is shouldn't win games thats an argument about game mode design, not psr calculation.

Why do we have this weird angle where we praise some moves and scoff at others, irrespective of whether they were part of a winning strategy or not?

No one would argue your elo should go down if you sacrificed too many pieces on your way to a checkmate, because capturing pieces is not a wincon in chess. And in the same way doing damage isn't a direct wincon in mwo, it can help you win just like capturing pieces can in chess but it can also be irrelevant. How to tell? Easy, you either won or lost, your moves either worked or they didn't.

Edited by Sjorpha, 16 January 2022 - 07:37 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

To me sounds like OP basically base dived without any intention to actually shoot at moving enemies.

Now over time if that is rewarded we end up in the situation we had previous with lower skill players climbing into Tiers they had no business being in and most of the time didn't want to be in either.

We have the system we have and who knows if it'll get changed. Even if it could, overly rewarding base-diving and purely playing the secondary objective - leads to the above problem over and over if rewarded too heavily.


Rock and a hard place with that one. We start highly rewarding the OP, he continues to base dive, ends up in T1 and the posts back in 6 months "the stomps are ridiculous".

[ScrapIron Prime]

I've had this conversation a number of times. In Conquest primarily (but also Incursion), it is possible to win the game without shooting the enemy. I'm not arguing in favor of that, because this is a first person shooter so you're supposed to shoot the persons first.

But it would be nice to get a bit more match score out of capping or incursing (if that's a word) in those game modes so that capping and THEN fighting is worth some more PSR than it currently is. Either that or change/eliminate the game modes so that you're not securing a win by something that doesn't give you meaningful match score. Because playing to the objective and winning the game, but then being punished for it, isn't good game design.

[RickySpanish]

Had this happen some time ago playing Incursion where one of our Annis snuck into the enemy base, while me and two others took out the enemy attack on our base and everyone else piled into the middle. In the end it was just the Anni left thwacking the enemy base, and he won the game for us. The whole team thanked him for somehow managing to walk passed the enemy without anyone caring. His LB10-Xs and small pulse lasers completely demolished the base before anything could even remotely threaten his armoue. He was the Hero we needed, even though his match score did not reflect it.

Incursion would be a better game mode if it were asymmetric - one team assaults and the other defends, then the teams swap and the attackers need to destroy the base faster than in the last round. Oh, if only the game were actually still in development

Edited by RickySpanish, 17 January 2022 - 12:19 PM.

[SharDar]

Relishcakes, on 16 January 2022 - 05:00 PM, said:

They were saying that they were essentially penalized on psr for playing to the objective to secure the win instead of going in on combat.

The prevailing attitude is that the participating in the game modes doesn't take much skill: you just run around and stand in specific places. The skill in piloting a mech is displayed in combat, which is measured in damage and kills. If you win the game mode too early, everyone gets a crappy match score (which is based on damage and kills). So, pay attention to the modes, but be sure you are getting in your damage!

[dubstep albatross]

SharDar, on 17 January 2022 - 08:57 PM, said:

The prevailing attitude is that the participating in the game modes doesn't take much skill: you just run around and stand in specific places. The skill in piloting a mech is displayed in combat, which is measured in damage and kills. If you win the game mode too early, everyone gets a crappy match score (which is based on damage and kills). So, pay attention to the modes, but be sure you are getting in your damage!

The game modes beyond skirmish really just have objectives that are used as forcing functions. The most obvious is that any objective other than wiping the other team helps deal with the lone enemy mech who is avoiding dying. This does not happen often, but it is generally memorable and very frustrating. Especially the people who shutdown to obscure their location. The objectives can be used strategically to encourage the enemy to make sub-optimal choices. I do think game modes other than skirmish should (and need to) exist.

For some, the win is all that matters and for a competitive game, I suppose that makes sense. The sticking point is when the match ends via an objective-based resolution. Sometimes that is because one team executed very well or in a clever manner, and that can be impressive. But usually the resolution is simply unsatisfying. Most of the time a little voice in my head goes, "womp womp".

As a disclaimer, I do not care much about the win (yes, of course, winning is better than losing), about match score numbers, or about damage numbers. I care about having fun and having a memorable match experience. The visceral moments in battle, for example, will always trump a strategic objective win. Objective-based wins reduce the opportunity for those moments, thus they take away from the experience I seek. I want to solidly land an alpha to an exposed side torso, between twists, popping that XL, thus sending that opponent to Valhalla. I want to deadside that brawler's barrage, my mech armor an angry red, to return a desperate shot that takes his remaining leg. This goes both ways: if my opponent does something clever, glorious, skillful, or gets insanely lucky, I can appreciate and enjoy this.

Beating my opponent (or being beaten) to a circle or a flag rings hollow in comparison.

Edited by dubstep albatross, 19 January 2022 - 08:46 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

wrong thread yep

Edited by justcallme A S H, 18 January 2022 - 06:31 PM.

[MPhoenix]

justcallme A S H, on 18 January 2022 - 06:21 PM, said:

Ok so I asked FUSION what happened here.

He remembers as it was recent, despite OP chosing to cut off the date for whatever reason.

• All 4 in Alpha Lance are IRL friends, have been friends for 20-30 years.
  
• So yes, he is bringing people to the game
  
• Obviously group tanks PSR which is a known problem
  
• FUSION is simply playing with his friends. There is no deliberate juking the Match Maker as per the usual conspiracy theorists.

So all this is basically as I said on page 1. What a surpsise that my prediction (and that of others) was spot on rather than the sensationalist nonsense that goes on

I think you're in the wrong thread...

[LordNothing]

the morale of this story is objectives are meaningless. they are only token objectives at least, and a way to end a game in lieu of a wayward squirrel at most. you need to go to fp before objectives have any meaning, but that's its own can of worms.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

without Respawn all Objectives only a bad joke was PGi not understand ...seeing other Games like War Thunder.
Destroy the enemy and all objectives fullfill