39 replies to this topic

[ShiverMeRivets]

The Caldron balance changes are mostly good. However for some mechs it is clear that they catered to somebody’s wish-build.
This is evident in the prolific use of HSL+ quirks, especially on mechs that really did not need it. The most recent and extreme example of somebody’s wish-build is the small lasers charger - these are extreme and very specific set of quirks to enable a specific build that is otherwise completely ******** and will not work without the quirks on any other mech.

I wish they would stop doing the above and stop cater to sniper builds. Asides for the occasional flops they do a pretty good job.

[Heavy Money]

ShiverMeRivets, on 17 April 2022 - 10:30 AM, said:

The Caldron balance changes are mostly good. However for some mechs it is clear that they catered to somebody’s wish-build.
This is evident in the prolific use of HSL+ quirks, especially on mechs that really did not need it. The most recent and extreme example of somebody’s wish-build is the small lasers charger - these are extreme and very specific set of quirks to enable a specific build that is otherwise completely ******** and will not work without the quirks on any other mech.

I wish they would stop doing the above and stop cater to sniper builds. Asides for the occasional flops they do a pretty good job.

That's literally the Charger's lore build. That's the joke. Those giga quirks are what's necessary for it to be viable. They've made it an IS equivalent to laser spam Gargoyle. It can still run non-small laser builds. It wasn't some random person's wish build, it was fulfilling the wish of having lore loadouts be viable and competitive that many people have voiced. And it offers a totally new playstyle for IS that was previously unavailable. What a silly thing to take issue with.

HSL quirks are the only way to directly increase alpha damage, and do it without increasing dps. They are a fine way to make different variants of the same mech stay different from each other, or from similar builds on other chassis. Don't take issue with something just because its HSL. If there's an actual problem with some mech that got it, then just bring that up.

Also they have not catered to sniper builds overall. They have made more types of long ranged weapons viable than in the past, so now there are more options in long ranged builds. Before it was all cERPPCs, now its lots of stuff.

[C E Dwyer]

Nomad Tech, on 17 January 2022 - 08:56 PM, said:

A group of players with far more power in this game than should be allowed.. Because PGI is too lazy or inept to do the real leg work..

It's a way of getting work done for free, or near as, call P.G.I inept if you want, but you can't say they are bad at business, no other company was willing to touch this Franchise, and no other will.

The kind of people in the Cauldron, will always put skill before fun, because for them fun is a head shot from 800meters.
not a brawl at 200 meters.

This of course has a negative impact on those that enjoy close quarter combat.

whether this bring some people back or not, I don't know, I doubt it will have any real impact on numbers to make things matter.

Filling in the gaps with the new mechs is more likely to have impact on getting old players back, if the cauldron's projects work, then those that come back for the Crusader, are more likely to stay.

If they don't then there isn't enough people left to worry about Cauldron Sucks threads like PGI delt with for years.

oh as a footnote, whatever people might think of the Caldron, at least they haven't turned it into MWLL.

Edited by C E Dwyer, 17 April 2022 - 11:13 AM.

[pattonesque]

C E Dwyer, on 17 April 2022 - 11:10 AM, said:

It's a way of getting work done for free, or near as, call P.G.I inept if you want, but you can't say they are bad at business, no other company was willing to touch this Franchise, and no other will.

The kind of people in the Cauldron, will always put skill before fun, because for them fun is a head shot from 800meters.
not a brawl at 200 meters.

This of course has a negative impact on those that enjoy close quarter combat.

whether this bring some people back or not, I don't know, I doubt it will have any real impact on numbers to make things matter.

Filling in the gaps with the new mechs is more likely to have impact on getting old players back, if the cauldron's projects work, then those that come back for the Crusader, are more likely to stay.

If they don't then there isn't enough people left to worry about Cauldron Sucks threads like PGI delt with for years.

oh as a footnote, whatever people might think of the Caldron, at least they haven't turned it into MWLL.

I mean you know the first set of buffs included making red lasers viable right

And later ones gave ammo buffs that made MGs/HMGs very usable on light mechs

Neither of those are long range lol

[Meep Meep]

I have greatly enjoyed the cauldron changes and look forward to more mixing up of the meta to keep the game fresh. As it stands almost all the weapon systems are viable now though a few might still be outperforming a bit. But eh I can deal with that.

[Heavy Money]

pattonesque, on 17 April 2022 - 12:34 PM, said:

I mean you know the first set of buffs included making red lasers viable right

And later ones gave ammo buffs that made MGs/HMGs very usable on light mechs

Neither of those are long range lol

Yup. Overall, far more has been done to buff weapons that aren't extreme long range than has been done to buff long range. And we've seen plenty of things get toned down, such as cLPLs overperforming at longer ranges.

Now, there have been large buffs to weapon that are medium to long range but not sniper, such as Large Lasers, regular and light PPCs, AC5 family, etc. People may be confusing the fact that 500-700m range weapons have gotten stronger with 850m+ weapons.

But there has also been a huge amount of attention to closer range stuff: Small laser based brawl, machine guns, AC20 family, MRMs, SRMs, etc. Pretty much every close range weapon except the MPL has become better. And we now have power combos like AC20+Snubs, which are the close range equivalent of the 2LGR+2ERPPC snipers.

People are getting upset about some supposed Sniper Meta, but the perception is flawed. It probably has a lot to do with it being more noticeable to get wrecked by Snipers due to it often manifesting as getting pinned down or picked apart, and you notice certain weapon types more. Whereas for closer range, its less noticeable. And there are top teams who snipe. And Sniping does have a higher skill ceiling (this is a universal of shooter games.) So if you get wrecked by a high tier group, it will be a sniper group more often than average. And sniping tends to be all or nothing. You notice the snipers who farm you because of good strategic positioning, and you don't notice how often those same snipers accomplish nothing due to map issues, or harassment from fast mechs.

But overall, the best builds in QP on average are flexible medium ranged builds like clan laservomit, UAC10/5 dakka, etc.

Edited by Heavy Money, 17 April 2022 - 01:51 PM.

[Ihlrath]

When I say there are more snipers/long range, this is a thing and it can't be disputed, just play two drops.

However, I didn't say it makes that big of a difference, especially in QP. More often than not, snipers in QP are not effective and usually just end up costing their team.

[Heavy Money]

Ihlrath, on 17 April 2022 - 01:54 PM, said:

When I say there are more snipers/long range, this is a thing and it can't be disputed, just play two drops.

However, I didn't say it makes that big of a difference, especially in QP. More often than not, snipers in QP are not effective and usually just end up costing their team.

You are correct. I do not dispute that there are more snipers. And there are certainly more viable builds to snipe with. My dispute is that there's some sort of 'sniper meta', where snipers are dominating matches and are the best option, and are ruining everything.

[Magnus Santini]

pattonesque, on 17 April 2022 - 12:34 PM, said:

I mean you know the first set of buffs included making red lasers viable right

And later ones gave ammo buffs that made MGs/HMGs very usable on light mechs
. . .

Seems weird. I know I am just back but my memory is that MG ammo was never a problem on my MG lights, and my SL lights were always good (improved when they made ERSLs). What always needed the helping hand is missile ammo on lights. Because there is nothing to remove for ammo weight: no extra heat sinks, no extra weapons, and the SRM-4 launchers are heavy compared to capacity. I guess my 25.8 firepower COM-2B could take 3 SRM-2s instead of 4s, making it 12 alpha spread damage. Also my COM-1B still wants 4/10 ton ammo crates for his AMS.

Edited by Magnus Santini, 17 April 2022 - 06:30 PM.

[pattonesque]

Magnus Santini, on 17 April 2022 - 06:26 PM, said:

Seems weird. I know I am just back but my memory is that MG ammo was never a problem on my MG lights, and my SL lights were always good (improved when they made ERSLs). What always needed the helping hand is missile ammo on lights. Because there is nothing to remove for ammo weight: no extra heat sinks, no extra weapons, and the SMR-4 launchers are heavy compared to capacity. I guess my 25.8 firepower COM-2B could take 3 SRM-2s instead of 4s, making it 12 alpha spread damage. Also my COM-1B still wants 4/10 ton ammo crates for his AMS.

SPL/uPL/uL lights are now way better than they were because of the buffs. The Commando was already a good performer and didn't necessarily need ammo buffs, but the Locust-3S, for instance, is now very viable because of them.

[C E Dwyer]

pattonesque, on 17 April 2022 - 12:34 PM, said:

I mean you know the first set of buffs included making red lasers viable right

And later ones gave ammo buffs that made MGs/HMGs very usable on light mechs

Neither of those are long range lol

Twice nothing is still nothing.

These adjustments may well make it easier for a light to take down an isolated Assault, but until the cauldron, encourage, and push for adjustments, that bring down the average effective combat range, which with current map design, the average effective range is around 500-600 meters and out. the game is not doing any favors for big assults with srm and ac 20 builds.

These builds could be made more viable by reducing rate of fire or increasing heat, of longer ranged weapons, if there was any real intention by said committie to make big mech brawling viable, this will still not

Most of the Cauldron are people that are big supporters of pin point Damage. in the past have been highly citical of the clan Uac because of the 'pellets'. it shoots, spreading damage.

Pushed for sollaris 7 another disaster, that was clearly never going to be popular with the less skilled masses, which this game needs to remain active.

Were people that wanted to cherry pick maps,( we ended up with maps voting) to get the most out their min maxed builds.

The cauldron do, good things, that's not for debate, but that they do thngs that are going to make the game continue past 2025.

I totally disagree.

The caluldron are making adjustments, that is making the game more enjoyable for them, during it's probable last three years. They have done nothing which will make the game remotely fun for people that have difficulty hitting a barndoor from the inside.
These are the people that keep staff paid, and copyrights paid.

Projects like the crusader are going t have far more impact on this franchise existing past 2025, by encouraging whales back, than anything they do, because they produce income.

Ever since Beta their has been a perpetual battle between the top 5% of players, and PGI. and IGP.

The 5% wanted their game, at all costs, and lagged off anyone that had a counter point of view.


PGI wanted a game that was finacially viable, and that means making it playable for bad shots.

Now the population is so low it makes no real difference, what the Cauldron do, a couple of hundred people coming back, because they make medium-long range weapons systems more viable for big mechs than short range. isn't going to prolong this games viability, only players injecting hard cash, for advertising and staff salary. for that you need a game viable to the masses.

[Natural Predator]

The Cauldron is made up of Loki Operatives and DEST spies bent on the destruction of obstacles in the way of progress in this dead game. Basically they are Dr. Frankenstein attempting to bring necro back to life PGIs baby.

[Heavy Money]

C E Dwyer, on 18 April 2022 - 06:23 AM, said:

Twice nothing is still nothing.

These adjustments may well make it easier for a light to take down an isolated Assault, but until the cauldron, encourage, and push for adjustments, that bring down the average effective combat range, which with current map design, the average effective range is around 500-600 meters and out. the game is not doing any favors for big assults with srm and ac 20 builds.

These builds could be made more viable by reducing rate of fire or increasing heat, of longer ranged weapons, if there was any real intention by said committie to make big mech brawling viable, this will still not

Most of the Cauldron are people that are big supporters of pin point Damage. in the past have been highly citical of the clan Uac because of the 'pellets'. it shoots, spreading damage.

Pushed for sollaris 7 another disaster, that was clearly never going to be popular with the less skilled masses, which this game needs to remain active.

Were people that wanted to cherry pick maps,( we ended up with maps voting) to get the most out their min maxed builds.

The cauldron do, good things, that's not for debate, but that they do thngs that are going to make the game continue past 2025.

I totally disagree.

The caluldron are making adjustments, that is making the game more enjoyable for them, during it's probable last three years. They have done nothing which will make the game remotely fun for people that have difficulty hitting a barndoor from the inside.
These are the people that keep staff paid, and copyrights paid.

Projects like the crusader are going t have far more impact on this franchise existing past 2025, by encouraging whales back, than anything they do, because they produce income.

Ever since Beta their has been a perpetual battle between the top 5% of players, and PGI. and IGP.

The 5% wanted their game, at all costs, and lagged off anyone that had a counter point of view.


PGI wanted a game that was finacially viable, and that means making it playable for bad shots.

Now the population is so low it makes no real difference, what the Cauldron do, a couple of hundred people coming back, because they make medium-long range weapons systems more viable for big mechs than short range. isn't going to prolong this games viability, only players injecting hard cash, for advertising and staff salary. for that you need a game viable to the masses.

Short range brawlers have gotten much stronger, have gotten more options and loadouts, and many more mechs are capable of running it. What are you even talking about. Your whole complaint is nonsense because the thing you say is weak isn't weak. Close range brawl assaults work just fine if used properly. If they coordinate, they are practically unstoppable.

But you can't just leeroy jenkins in. The problem is not that brawlers are weak, it is that most teams are timid and uncoordinated. Watch what coordinated groups using big brawlers can pull off. Like the Cauldron's own groups you'll run into. If people coordinate and work together properly, they smash everything. If you yolo in alone, you'll die, as you should. And this isn't some unattainable level of coordination that only comp groups can achieve. Its just basic stuff like pushing together properly, having a bit of scouting so you don't blunder into a firing line, etc.

Brawling is at a disadvantage on a strategic level, not a balance level. It is less optimal in quickplay than longer range stuff not because it is weak, but because the way teams play generally means brawlers can't do their job properly. (Long range often cannot either, but at least they can plink some damage in while their team rotates to death.)

So you might say that brawling needs to be buffed to compensate. But it cannot be. If brawling was strong enough to work out even when the strategic and tactical level is wrong for it, it will just become too powerful. People who can coordinate brawlers already do very well. If they get stronger, the amount they will dominate everything is far beyond what you think is going on with long range now.

You are literally blaming problems caused by your team mates not knowing how to play well on the main people improving this game and keeping a large core of the player base engaged.

[pattonesque]

yeah what he said, I have no idea what you're talking about dude. Compare red lasers now vs. red lasers pre-cauldron. They're deadly in their chosen range

[Ihlrath]

Heavy Money, on 18 April 2022 - 10:56 AM, said:

Short range brawlers have gotten much stronger, have gotten more options and loadouts, and many more mechs are capable of running it. What are you even talking about. Your whole complaint is nonsense because the thing you say is weak isn't weak. Close range brawl assaults work just fine if used properly. If they coordinate, they are practically unstoppable.

But you can't just leeroy jenkins in. The problem is not that brawlers are weak, it is that most teams are timid and uncoordinated. Watch what coordinated groups using big brawlers can pull off. Like the Cauldron's own groups you'll run into. If people coordinate and work together properly, they smash everything. If you yolo in alone, you'll die, as you should. And this isn't some unattainable level of coordination that only comp groups can achieve. Its just basic stuff like pushing together properly, having a bit of scouting so you don't blunder into a firing line, etc.

Brawling is at a disadvantage on a strategic level, not a balance level. It is less optimal in quickplay than longer range stuff not because it is weak, but because the way teams play generally means brawlers can't do their job properly. (Long range often cannot either, but at least they can plink some damage in while their team rotates to death.)

So you might say that brawling needs to be buffed to compensate. But it cannot be. If brawling was strong enough to work out even when the strategic and tactical level is wrong for it, it will just become too powerful. People who can coordinate brawlers already do very well. If they get stronger, the amount they will dominate everything is far beyond what you think is going on with long range now.

You are literally blaming problems caused by your team mates not knowing how to play well on the main people improving this game and keeping a large core of the player base engaged.

You're not wrong. However the current set of maps heavily favor sitting back and sniping from across the map, especially the smaller (classic) maps that you can literally start pelting the enemy team from spawn to spawn. Let's not forget the sniper wet dream that is Caustic valley and literal sniper ridge that runs half way around Vale.

Solaris is the one map that brawlers should, on paper at least, have a tactical advantage. Canyons should have worked out that way but it turns into snipers hanging out at the edges of the map cracking off shots at anything that pops out of the low ground.

Brawlers are still strong, however like you said, they're tactically cornholed by these new maps.

[Heavy Money]

Ihlrath, on 18 April 2022 - 01:53 PM, said:

You're not wrong. However the current set of maps heavily favor sitting back and sniping from across the map, especially the smaller (classic) maps that you can literally start pelting the enemy team from spawn to spawn. Let's not forget the sniper wet dream that is Caustic valley and literal sniper ridge that runs half way around Vale.

Solaris is the one map that brawlers should, on paper at least, have a tactical advantage. Canyons should have worked out that way but it turns into snipers hanging out at the edges of the map cracking off shots at anything that pops out of the low ground.

Brawlers are still strong, however like you said, they're tactically cornholed by these new maps.

Certain maps do of course lean towards certain playstyles more than others. But do not mistake the fact that snipers get to do some shooting at long range for them actually being meta on these maps. There's lots of situations where snipers will wrack up some damage at long range and then get rolled over, or fail to influence the outcome of the game. They are certainly better for ensuring you deal a bit of damage even on losses. And brawling is of course more all-or-nothing. But these differences don't actually indicate a problem in and of themselves.

Think about the number of matches where you take some sniper fire early on and then your team rolls everyone and wins. And if you go snipe a lot, you'll have plenty of matches where you spend the whole time shooting and may even get a nice score, but cannot save your team (especially if they move out of where you can cover them.) Sniping is generally strategically passive and can only be as useful as the rest of the team lets it (but as said before, unlike brawlers, it tends to do better in a stalemate or messy match.) And let's not forget how often you do a couple hundred dmg sniping then get ganked by Vipers.

The question to ask is: Are there maps where, if the enemy team has X amount more snipers than you do, you cannot win if you play a proper strat? The answer is generally no. Then the next question is if the difficulty of executing this proper strat is too much greater than the difficulty of just sitting there sniping, and if the rewards on a loss are too low compared to the effort. This is where there is likely an issue overall. And its especially an issue at lower skill levels where people are less able to coordinate.

[Vellron2005]

Ihlrath, on 17 January 2022 - 02:30 PM, said:

They are a group of shadowy minute men that according to my own research (I.E. vodka fueled forum reading) that are responsible for:

3: Turning the game into a sniperfest C.O.D. clone.

On this I wholeheartedly agree. And this is evident in basically every aspect of the game.

[pattonesque]

just use cover dude lol

[Meep Meep]

Yeah the ones complaining about the 'sniper cod meta' are probably the same ones that run out into open territory in warzone and get sniped over and over and over and rage about it every time.

[pattonesque]

Meep Meep, on 19 April 2022 - 11:19 AM, said:

Yeah the ones complaining about the 'sniper cod meta' are probably the same ones that run out into open territory in warzone and get sniped over and over and over and rage about it every time.

my favorite thing is how they push out, get lit up immediately, and instead of going back into cover or twisting or doing anything to mitigate it they just keep going. dogs learn faster.