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Formula For Balancing Weapons?


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#41 LordNothing

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 03:30 PM

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 19 January 2022 - 06:41 PM, said:



A formula could tell you all of these things.
Math, kids. I don't even....


give me a formula to explain why ppfld is better or why hlls suck despite huge damage numbers. those are the hard to quantify variables. both of these are obviously face time issues, but how do you factor that into your math? every variable is another dimension and pretty soon you need a top shelf mathematician to use high order computations to figure it out. but the problem is solvable via experimentation even at a game dev's pay grade. thats where the fudge factors i spoke of in an earlier post come into play.

you see this kind of thing in engineering too. an aerospace engineer needs to identify coefficients experimentally because they represent complexities outside of an engineer's pay grade to solve mathematically. the live game is just our wind tunnel.

#42 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 05:16 PM

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 19 January 2022 - 11:13 PM, said:

Guys, we're talking about weapon balance here. It's math. What are you going on about?
We're talking about Mechwarrior, right?


Reminds me of something about a mathematician and an engineer walking into a bar.... Posted Image My engineer professor had some good ones, the math professors simply ignored them, off in their little world...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 20 January 2022 - 05:18 PM.


#43 LordNothing

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 05:24 PM

when your only tool is a hammer...etc.
there are other tools.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 January 2022 - 05:25 PM.


#44 ScrapIron Prime

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 06:27 PM

View PostTarl Cabot, on 20 January 2022 - 05:16 PM, said:


Reminds me of something about a mathematician and an engineer walking into a bar.... Posted Image My engineer professor had some good ones, the math professors simply ignored them, off in their little world...


is that the one where each step gets them halfway closer to the cute girl at the bar? the mathematician gives up because he knows he will never get there, while the engineer keeps going because he knows he will soon be close enough for all practical purposes? Posted Image

#45 feeWAIVER

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 07:05 PM

View PostLordNothing, on 20 January 2022 - 03:30 PM, said:


give me a formula to explain why ppfld is better or why hlls suck despite huge damage numbers. those are the hard to quantify variables. both of these are obviously face time issues, but how do you factor that into your math? every variable is another dimension and pretty soon you need a top shelf mathematician to use high order computations to figure it out. but the problem is solvable via experimentation even at a game dev's pay grade. thats where the fudge factors i spoke of in an earlier post come into play.

you see this kind of thing in engineering too. an aerospace engineer needs to identify coefficients experimentally because they represent complexities outside of an engineer's pay grade to solve mathematically. the live game is just our wind tunnel.



Again, talk to someone like Nightbird that is clearly smarter than me..
But I imagine a formula explaining ppfld and hills would involve the time to fire, exposure percentage of your mech, and even your teams armor, because those are all variables that contribute to your success.

#46 justcallme A S H

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 07:05 PM

3 pages for "there must be a formula".

Surely just trolling at this point just like the other thread that got locked because of it Posted Image

View PostCurccu, on 20 January 2022 - 03:47 AM, said:

Why cSPL nerf? Those still seem to be pretty rare sight (from what I have seen) outside of light mechs.



Run a Lanner, Cheeta, Kitfox, Nova etc with bulk cSPL and/or erMicro

Monster DPS and perform super well. cSPL took an over-buff from where it was (pre mass nerfs years ago), so just a little tone down. Still really good - just that people aren't neccesarily using them/realised. Perhaps a little getting ahead of it in a way.

#47 feeWAIVER

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 07:28 PM

A Course About Game Balance - YouTube

Three Statistical Tests Every Game Developer Should Know - YouTube

Edited by feeWAIVER, 20 January 2022 - 07:37 PM.


#48 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 08:58 PM

View Post1453 R, on 20 January 2022 - 08:46 AM, said:

Problem: all the 'Mechs were designed forty-odd years ago for a completely different system. Ship has long, long since sailed on that one.

and all mechs , not like Earthsiege , designed only under aestehical Aspects ,not for technical or modular Logical Aspects...oh, the Macross Mechs looks cool , let license us the Designs for use it ,and the Guys have not more science aspects in mind as Georg lucas

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 20 January 2022 - 07:28 PM, said:




That is why in science the individual opinion is worth nothing at all, there were also highly intelligent scientists who were convinced they could invent the perpetual motion machine, or be able to convert any substance into gold, or held the geocentric world view to be mathematically provable, and in 100 years one will often only shake one's head uncomprehendingly about our knowledge and commit new errors oneself. Mania and delusion are the constant companions of intelligence

https://www.theguard...rlying-genetics

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 20 January 2022 - 09:08 PM.


#49 Davegt27

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 09:12 PM

its hard to figure why the other thread was locked
it was useful and beneficial IMHO

there is not always an answer, maybe admitting we don't know the answer would help people

from a pinned thread made by Paul about PSR

https://mwomercs.com...ity-version-10/


we get this formula

"In short, here is the formula being used:

PSR Change = W(X) - Y + Y( C(P/A) + (1-C)(P/M) )"

so clearly the game uses formula for some things

now going back to the original question

"Formula for balancing weapons"

my answer is I don't know

another question would be --should there be a formula for balancing weapons ?

nothing wrong with asking questions

OP I am risking getting shouted down but you might find an answer in old NGNG pod casts/town halls
(try going back and reviewing these old town halls/pod cast/ Mechs Devs and beer)

maybe PGI devs have a totally different way to solve the problem

good luck

Edited by Davegt27, 21 January 2022 - 04:52 AM.


#50 justcallme A S H

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 09:41 PM

When has anyone been shouted down for asking completely fair and logical questions? I've never seen it happen on the pages of the forum.

Or are you referring to your Streak post/video from a few weeks ago? The one in which you were sure you uncovered a bug yet in the end it was pointed out you just didn't understand what you were looking at? If so there was no shouting down there. You did seem to take offense to having game mechanics explained to you though (which is a very odd reaction).

#51 MW Waldorf Statler

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 10:17 PM

https://www.quora.co...-with-Darwinism

fine anecdot to this

Quote

Q: What is the "mathematical problem" with Darwinism?
A: “The mathematical problem with Darwinism” is the invention of creationists to make the theory of evolution seem impossible. Creationists set a number on how unlikely it is that molecules and atoms can arrange themselves in a way known in a living cell – for instance 10162,22110162,221 for a modern 250,000-atom ribosome – and then say that there is not enough time for that to happen since the age of the universe.

It is often followed by an analogy of a tornado in a junkyard assembling a fully functional Boeing 747.

What they “forget” (read: ignore) is that tornados and junkyards don’t have sex, or even procreate, and neither does 747s.

But self-replicating molecules do procreate, mutate, and are selected against.


one can calculate and measure a living being and its habitat in every aspect, but why it lives, why it chooses this or that partner, or how it arose or will develop, or what it thinks or feels is not mathematically comprehensible.

You can measure an elephant's trunk, but it doesn't tell you anything about an elephant.

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 20 January 2022 - 10:26 PM.


#52 YueFei

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Posted 20 January 2022 - 11:09 PM

Bottom line is, as I said, the computability of finding game balance. It doesn't exist for a deep and well designed game, and in fact should not exist.

This is due to the solvability of a game. One of the goals of good game design is to make your game unsolvable. This is a good thing. That's because a solved game is predictable and boring. Tic Tac Toe is solved, and a very shallow and uninteresting game.

A game designer shall intentionally reduce the solvability of their game, which creates greater depth and keeps players coming back over and over again, constantly pushing the boundaries as they explore the game's decision-space. A game with a very large decision-space is one in which even the game's designer cannot fully explore on their own, and if done well, even with millions of players, the decision-space will not be exhausted. It is because the players will use techniques that even the designers did not think of, that expecting anyone to design an algorithm to determine game balance is futile.

Players will think of techniques and methods that not even the designers originally envisioned, and these may force the game designers to re-think the game's balance. More likely is that, given some time, other players will devise a way to counter that innovative new technique with yet another new technique of their own. Game designers should give players some time to see if they can come up with counter-play options, rather than knee-jerk nerfing things that rise to the top of the "meta" (the way PGI used to smash things with the nerf bat is not how you do game balance!). A game whose decision-space can be quickly exhausted is a shallow game and one that is not worth playing.

Thus, in a well-designed game with complexity and depth, you cannot exhaust the decision-space, hence you cannot determine game balance by computation alone.

If hundreds of millions of dollars and countless watts of electricity and computational power invested into research into Go has not exhausted its decision-space, then nevermind MWO with the much smaller amount of money we could expect to be invested into it.

Nah, the litmus test for game balance is much simpler:
If an opponent uses X, can I counter it by doing something other than X? If the answer is yes, then there's no problem in game balance, because a counter-play option Y is available. If the answer is no, then the question should become: how long have players had to try to come up with a counter to X? If, after months of fruitless experimentation, players still haven't found a way to defeat X besides using X themselves, then an adjustment is warranted.

Otherwise, any whining about X is just that: whining. And anybody whining about it just needs to L2P.

Edited by YueFei, 20 January 2022 - 11:11 PM.


#53 LordNothing

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Posted 21 January 2022 - 02:00 AM

View PostfeeWAIVER, on 20 January 2022 - 07:05 PM, said:



Again, talk to someone like Nightbird that is clearly smarter than me..
But I imagine a formula explaining ppfld and hills would involve the time to fire, exposure percentage of your mech, and even your teams armor, because those are all variables that contribute to your success.


nightbird is a stat math guy. he always has good analysis of data. he can look at the data and point out anything thats iffy. idk if he can derive a viable equation for face time and how that factors into a weapon's performance, only he can answer that. he certainly is the guy id want working on the match maker. this sounds more like a calculus problem though. i keep wanting to throw linear algebra at it, but thats probibly not the answer either. tweaking it until it feels right isnt really math, but its pretty damn close to science.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 January 2022 - 02:05 AM.


#54 LordNothing

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Posted 21 January 2022 - 02:10 AM

View PostDavegt27, on 20 January 2022 - 09:12 PM, said:

its hard to figure why the other thread was locked
it was useful and beneficial IMHO

there is not always an answer, maybe admitting we don't know the answer would help people

from a pinned thread made by Paul about PSR

https://mwomercs.com...ity-version-10/


we get this formula

"In short, here is the formula being used:

PSR Change = W(X) - Y + Y( C(P/A) + (1-C)(P/M) )"

so clearly the game uses formula for some things

now going back to the original question

"Formula for weapons balancing weapons"

my answer is I don't know

another question would be --should there be a formula for balancing weapons ?

nothing wrong with asking questions

OP I am risking getting shouted down but you might find an answer in old NGNG pod casts/town halls
(try going back and reviewing these old town halls/pod cast/ Mechs Devs and beer)

maybe PGI devs have a totally different way to solve the problem

good luck


lets not kid ourselves, games are giant balls of math. some of it is over my head.

i think the problem with the other threads is that they devolved into whine fests. keep it technical and civil and it should be fine.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 January 2022 - 02:12 AM.


#55 PocketYoda

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Posted 22 January 2022 - 06:13 AM

View PostScrapIron Prime, on 20 January 2022 - 09:10 AM, said:

And be thankful we don't have hardpoint SIZES like they implemented in MW5 (and multiple titles before that).


I wish they did, then Variants of mechs would be all useful.. And MW5 at least did that right until "Yet another mech lab" ruined it all... Thats one mod i always avoid..

Because you wouldn't want a game spawned from the core game to actually be similar would you... Wouldn't need ghost heat would be all this stupid boating of weapons. Balance somewhat achieved, just by following the core game..

Edited by Nomad Tech, 22 January 2022 - 06:16 AM.






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