7 replies to this topic

[Ghoja]

Missile health needs to be dropped back to where it used to be.

Originally it was changed to counter the Corsair with 4 AMS... Ok, so you made every other mech that can mount only 1 or 2 AMS useless because of 1 mech...

Also, when this was done, did it take into account of the mechs that boat 10 LRM10/15?

If the Corsair was causing the problem, nerf the Corsair, don't buff all missiles to the point of making the singular or dual mounted AMS useless even when combined with the dmg increase skills.

That change dropped AMS effectiveness to 25% of what it was. I know, because when I run Kitfox-C, Jester (when I had dual ams on it), and the vindicator I bought just for dual AMS, I always check how many missiles I shot down. It's about 25% of what it was... AMS never was all that effective against missile boats before the increased missile health (because of the massive boating on some mechs) but now unless you run the Kitfox-C stock with it's quirks and skills, or the Corsair A, AMS is just wasted tonnage.

The balance between AMS and LRM boats has always been spotty, right now the sway is in the missile boats favor.

Possible solutions:
-Reduce missile health back to what it was and nerf AMS boats.

-Give all single and dual AMS mechs quirks to make it worth adding hitbox enlargement and tonnage needed to mount them.

-Nerf the missile boats. Increase heat cost of missile weapons (minus SRMs) by a at least 10-20%, or set a maximum number of LRMs mountable, not by ghost heat that can be gotten around by chain fire, but a hard cap.

Edited by Ghoja, 01 February 2022 - 09:46 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

I actually tested AMS not long ago live on stream.

Your claim that AMS is 75% less effective is simply untrue. I would suggest you get into a private lobby and test yourself.


The result of the testing was that 3-4 AMS nukes volleys upto LRM40 without any drama at all a significant portion of the volleys is taken out.

After 3 x LRM40 volleys approx 48-50dmg was getting through out of 120dmg potential. This was against a 3 x AMS Kitfox. Proving AMS is strong and not nearly weak as you are claiming.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 02 February 2022 - 07:57 PM.

[Ghoja]

Try that with 1 AMS. Or 2. I was saying you NEED 3 or 4 AMS to make it actually useful. How many mechs can mount 3-4 AMS?

What I was saying is that the missile health buff basically made single and dual mount AMS worthless. Note, I also suggested nerfing the AMS boat mechs along with reverting the missile health.

The point was AMS is useless when stuck with only a single or dual mount AMS. It's just wasted tonnage. It wasn't always like that. I'm attempting to make it worth mounting singular or dual AMS again. AMS also now targets SRMs and MRMs (which they didn't before the buff) that also splits their fire away from LRMs even more. Given that there is no control over what missiles any AMS targets, they will target the nearest missile volley. Testing 1 on 1 is well and good, but throw in 1 more person on both sides, AMS boat targeted by LRM boat and have the other mech with the LRM boat fire an MRM or SRM at the other mech on the AMS side, you'll find that those AMS will target the SRM or MRM before the LRM and you will take a LOT more dmg.

Please note, I am happy they finally made AMS target SRM and MRM, it didn't make sense for them not too, and I actually tried getting that done. Combining it with increased missile health made it useless though for the vast majority of the mechs that can mount AMS. Even with the AMS dmg skills.

Also, I'm not trying to reduce ALL missile health, just LRMs. Those are boated most often and easily. ATMs needed the health buff because it was too easy to knock them all down.

You said you used a Kitfox, the Kitfox C has ROF and range quirks for AMS. One reason it's actually as good or better than a Corsair A for AMS coverage. I know both triple AMS Kitfoxes and quad AMS Corsairs are able to stop LRMs. The change was made because of that stopping ability.

I'm saying that instead of buffing all missiles with more health, they should have just nerfed the few mechs that boat AMS. There are far more missile boat mechs than AMS boat mechs. That buff just made single and dual mount AMS a waste of tonnage.

Edited by Ghoja, 04 February 2022 - 07:59 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

I just explained that 3-4 AMS is, if anything, overpowered.

2 AMS is probably the balance point of reasonable. Also look at the Mechs and quirks, often single or dual AMS mechs have some quirks which bring them up quite nicely.

AMS in single or dual config still works well enough for it's tonnage investment. If you think 1 AMS should be taking out 20 missiles in a LRM40 volley you're kinda asking for complete imbalance.

AMS ALWAYS targeted SRM and MRMs, it is not a new thing. You are incorrect there unfortunately.


I suggest you need to do some actual testing. What you are saying is simply not happening in reality. You're working of perception not fact

Edited by justcallme A S H, 04 February 2022 - 10:40 PM.

[Ghoja]

If I could actually test your way, I would. I don't have friends on here who still play or are willing to do these sorts of tests. So, in a sense, this is based on perception, but by playing both and observing the results, it's more of a practical test than what you are saying. Also, think on this... before the health buff, in a single match, my Kitfox C would shoot down over 3000 missiles. 3000. That's a massive number, enough damage to wipe a company. Since the patch the most I've seen is around 600 in a similar situation.

I do know that you are sorely mistaken about AMS targeting SRM and MRM. You must not have played that long, or just forgotten, but it was NOT always that way. I had thought streaks should be targeted because they actually track the mech, but it wasn't until MRMs came out and were doing massive dmg, with no AMS interference, that I posted here to ask why they weren't targeted by AMS. It wasn't until around the time of that missile health patch that AMS started targeting SRM and MRM volleys. Perhaps it was intended to do so and was just broken, but was not ALWAYS targeting SRM and MRM.

Also, while AMS is low tonnage investment, it also increases hitbox size where it is mounted. The increase in hitbox size is the real investment. Sniping the AMS mount on a mech that would normally be hidden in cover is not uncommon or difficult.

Based on your last post, I'm going to assume you play missile boats... and an LRM40 isn't a missile boat IMO. It's the mechs that boat 60+, or have such a short cooldown it amounts to as much. The LRM boats and AMS boats are both OP unless they are against each other. It's the only way it balances. The only reason AMS should be slightly ahead of LRMs is the fact that LRM boats hide, don't share armor with the team, and don't have to see their target to regularly get 600+ dmg, more often than not, the amount is higher than that.

You might think I'm against LRMs, but I'm really actually against mechs that boat anything. One reason I also wanted to get rid of the map selection, mechs should be built, and were intended (aside from a few) to be allrounders. LRM boats are just the most difficult to deal with because they have don't even usually have to peak to get their damage.

If mechs had a hard cap of 3 LRM/ATM systems (any more missile mounts would have to be SRM or MRM), the situation would get better without reducing missile health. At the same time, the Corsair 7A would need to be debuffed. The Kitfox C too, though to a lesser extent since its tonnage investment is a high % than the Corsair's. The balance is off by a large margin because of a few mechs on both sides.

Edited by Ghoja, 05 February 2022 - 09:11 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

AMS has been shooting down SRMs since long before MRMs were brought into the game. Streaks have also been taken down by AMS for as long as I've played. Unfortunately you are still wrong..


As for the rest - read my posts - we tested with LRM40 volleys.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Ghoja, on 05 February 2022 - 09:09 PM, said:

Also, while AMS is low tonnage investment, it also increases hitbox size where it is mounted. The increase in hitbox size is the real investment. Sniping the AMS mount on a mech that would normally be hidden in cover is not uncommon or difficult.

I think if adding a nodule to the top of your mech geometry is the difference between hiding and being cored, then your issue is the gunnery skill of the enemy sniper, not the AMS unit itself… that is NOT a large target.

And you’ll see that use of massive indirect fire LRM volleys is basically only a thing in lower tier matches. By higher tiers, the targets for such tactics have learned to make more efficient use of cover and radar deprivation, and the rewards are not as juicy for the horizon bomber style of play. It sort of self corrects.

That said, the more missiles there are on the field, the more armor savings that 1 to 1.5 ton investment provides your team. It’s always worth it. It’s not meant to provide immunity or let you move through open ground with impunity.

[Eon Graywolf]

In my Nova (2) AMS 6000 rds ammo only knocked down 432 incoming Msls Fix this!