63 replies to this topic

[RefrigeratorRaider2]

YueFei, on 27 February 2022 - 04:14 PM, said:

I touched on this a bit in another thread, but I think what might be happening is people having very different experiences depending on what chassis they're in. Assuming that they're arguing in good faith, this colors their perceptions and creates a disconnect between what they're experiencing and what the good players (or players that are at least "in-the-know") are experiencing.

I generally enjoy brawling as a playstyle over any other, and find that it's quite viable. I've often argued against people who said brawling is dead, and I've been among those who say brawling is effective. But I'm generally driving mechs that are suited for this, like Shadowhawks, Wolverines, Centurions. This month I dusted off my long-forgotten Hunchback-4SP (1st mech I ever played). Holy crap is it a chore trying to get anything done in the HBK-4SP. Despite that it has, on-paper, very very generous armor and structure quirks, this thing is much more fragile in practice. The lack of shield arms makes all the difference. Even though it has a total of an extra 26 hitpoints in each shoulder, compare that with the total shield arm health on a Centurion of 88 hitpoints.

In practical terms, this means that if you can effectively utilize the shield arm on a Centurion, that's an extra 88 hitpoints (and that's before the skill tree). You can tank a couple salvos as you close in.

Compare that with the Hunchback-4SP. It has a terrible profile for blocking shots with the arms. The weapon mounting locations require a lot of exposure, both profile-wise and in terms of duration of exposure. Take a couple hits on the way in and a shoulder is already ripped open, and if you're unlucky one of the ASRM6s has been crit out already.

By the time you've lost those 88 hitpoints in a Centurion's left arm (possibly more, if you took points in Survival Tree), the Hunchback has already lost those 52 extra hitpoints in both shoulders and an extra 36 points on top of that, meaning a shoulder is about to be opened up.

So now put yourself in the shoes of a casual player who just picks his mech based on the fact that he thinks they look cool. He doesn't read the patch notes. He tries to brawl in a mech that looks like that's what it is supposed to be doing, and you can imagine the kind of frustration he is having at getting smacked down left and right. You can imagine how this can lead to people having very different experiences and end up "talking past" each other.

Now like I said in the other thread, the Cauldron is trying to make every mech viable, so this problem will slowly go away, but it's still very much a work in progress.

Yep, and that ahs been my XP too; before the Wep Pass I lasted more, now I get shreded like at least +50% faster, yes, that much faster, as I think the Wep Pass Intention was, OK they wanted to give people more Firepower to make it more fun, but whatever Armor Pass, was before it, it was completely neutralized; therefore more armor, skills and even random skill picking is a defense against so much Firepower, which keeps on piling up, I don't know why? I think PGI should stop the Armor Passes

[YueFei]

Ghost of Kyiv2, on 27 February 2022 - 04:29 PM, said:

Yep, and that ahs been my XP too; before the Wep Pass I lasted more, now I get shreded like at least +50% faster, yes, that much faster, as I think the Wep Pass Intention was, OK they wanted to give people more Firepower to make it more fun, but whatever Armor Pass, was before it, it was completely neutralized; therefore more armor, skills and even random skill picking is a defense against so much Firepower, which keeps on piling up, I don't know why? I think PGI should stop the Armor Passes

The problem will get solved as more mechs get quirked up. Meanwhile, we can all help out by providing feedback to the Cauldron on mechs which are struggling and way too fragile.

Until then, I recommend driving mechs that are more durable (either with geometry or those that have already received their quirk passes). Mechs with good peeking profiles and effective shield arms can last a lot longer under fire.

[Extra Guac]

Vxheous, on 26 February 2022 - 07:47 PM, said:

No.

1. Weapons pass was meant to bring the bad weapons on par with the good ones, now pretty much every single playstyle is viable as long as you play that style well. Increasing survival will make it so everyone and their grandmother can just close distance at will (again), and turn every match into the 200m engagement range (MPL spam fest) that existed prior to cauldron changes.

2. The skill tree is balanced to 91 points, adding another 15 pts would almost make it possible to take every single point that's useful, with no drawbacks.

If you still played the game, you would know that playstyles aren't even close to balanced, it's all snipe.

And are you really arguing that close-range builds dominated the game prior to the Cauldron's changes? This was not reflected in QP, FP, or comp. When have the world championships ever been dominated by brawling teams? Has anyone ever used SRM's at all in the world championship finals?

Part of the imbalance is due to reduced time to kill, which favors high alphas and long-range builds over high DPS builds.

There's also a massive disparity in favor of the IS side right now. And it's not due to the weapons themselves, it's due to the superior mounts of Battlemasters & Stalkers combined with the higher ghost heat limit for IS. 6ERLL's will outtrade 4ERLL's every time.

[John Bronco]

Extra Guac, on 27 February 2022 - 06:59 PM, said:

If you still played the game, you would know that playstyles aren't even close to balanced, it's all snipe.

And are you really arguing that close-range builds dominated the game prior to the Cauldron's changes? This was not reflected in QP, FP, or comp. When have the world championships ever been dominated by brawling teams? Has anyone ever used SRM's at all in the world championship finals?

Part of the imbalance is due to reduced time to kill, which favors high alphas and long-range builds over high DPS builds.

There's also a massive disparity in favor of the IS side right now. And it's not due to the weapons themselves, it's due to the superior mounts of Battlemasters & Stalkers combined with the higher ghost heat limit for IS. 6ERLL's will outtrade 4ERLL's every time.

The meta prior to the cauldron was the all IS MPL and clan ERPPC, so yes it was stale and boring.

Also IS is not OP.

Only DSX thinks so, and it is a ridiculous narrative considering clans currently have the best medium in the game (VGL) and the two best heavies in the game (NTG and TBR).

If you are having problems, you need to build better or play better.

[Vxheous]

Extra Guac, on 27 February 2022 - 06:59 PM, said:

If you still played the game, you would know that playstyles aren't even close to balanced, it's all snipe.

And are you really arguing that close-range builds dominated the game prior to the Cauldron's changes? This was not reflected in QP, FP, or comp. When have the world championships ever been dominated by brawling teams? Has anyone ever used SRM's at all in the world championship finals?

Part of the imbalance is due to reduced time to kill, which favors high alphas and long-range builds over high DPS builds.

There's also a massive disparity in favor of the IS side right now. And it's not due to the weapons themselves, it's due to the superior mounts of Battlemasters & Stalkers combined with the higher ghost heat limit for IS. 6ERLL's will outtrade 4ERLL's every time.

John Bronco already mentioned this, but IS MPL, CERPPC, and UAC5/10 Ballistic assaults ruled for 2 years prior to cauldron changes in Quick play and Comp (easily proven as you can go back and watch all the pusha pusha pusha 6vs6 leagues that existed from 2019-2021). I also still play this game fairly casually now, and I still dominate with whatever mech I choose to play with, and ERLL boats don't give me any more issues than ballistic boaters, or laser vom, or any other viable build, other than the fact that ERLL boats can actually be played in quick play now as opposed to prior where you'd only see them in Faction play and comp matches.

There is no actual reduced time to kill per se other than all the other weapons were brought up to what IS MPL, big ballistic builds, were able to do prior to cauldron. So prior, if one team all had IS MPL builds, and ballistic builds, and the other team had an assortment of laser vom, brawl, etc, the TTK that team 1 could produce was far better than team 2. Now if the same scenario were to happen today, both teams should realistically have the same TTK. It only seems like TTK is reduced because all the lesser functioning weapons were brought in line with the good functioning weapons, so there are far more viable playstyles (without handicapping yourself) now than compared to 2 years ago

Edited by Vxheous, 27 February 2022 - 09:50 PM.

[Extra Guac]

John Bronco, on 27 February 2022 - 09:11 PM, said:

The meta prior to the cauldron was the all IS MPL and clan ERPPC, so yes it was stale and boring.

Also IS is not OP.

Only DSX thinks so, and it is a ridiculous narrative considering clans currently have the best medium in the game (VGL) and the two best heavies in the game (NTG and TBR).

If you are having problems, you need to build better or play better.

I'm not having problems at all, but thanks for the suggestion.

IS ERLL is completely dominant in long-range situations right now. Not so much in QP, or short-range situations, but IS wins 100% of the time right now on maps like Alpine Peaks. Balance is fine on many other maps & situations.

TBR & NTG are not the best heavies by any stretch of the imagination. If anything, TBR is a sub-average heavy, and NTG is situational.

[Extra Guac]

Vxheous, on 27 February 2022 - 09:46 PM, said:

John Bronco already mentioned this, but IS MPL, CERPPC, and UAC5/10 Ballistic assaults ruled for 2 years prior to cauldron changes in Quick play and Comp (easily proven as you can go back and watch all the pusha pusha pusha 6vs6 leagues that existed from 2019-2021). I also still play this game fairly casually now, and I still dominate with whatever mech I choose to play with, and ERLL boats don't give me any more issues than ballistic boaters, or laser vom, or any other viable build, other than the fact that ERLL boats can actually be played in quick play now as opposed to prior where you'd only see them in Faction play and comp matches.

There is no actual reduced time to kill per se other than all the other weapons were brought up to what IS MPL, big ballistic builds, were able to do prior to cauldron. So prior, if one team all had IS MPL builds, and ballistic builds, and the other team had an assortment of laser vom, brawl, etc, the TTK that team 1 could produce was far better than team 2. Now if the same scenario were to happen today, both teams should realistically have the same TTK. It only seems like TTK is reduced because all the lesser functioning weapons were brought in line with the good functioning weapons, so there are far more viable playstyles (without handicapping yourself) now than compared to 2 years ago

IS MPL, CERPPC, and UAC5/10 were never overpowered though. People liked to play them, but they weren't overpowered. JGx & the other top teams still beat all those teams every year using primarily ERLL's. Pushing has never been a stronger playstyle than trading.

Now, ballistics are subpar, MPL's were replaced by SPL's, ERPPC's are still good, and ERLL's are stronger than ever.

True brawl weapons like SRM's and AC20's are still completely unplayable - that's why they've never been used in the world championship finals, and they never will be.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Extra Guac, on 28 February 2022 - 07:06 AM, said:

Now, ballistics are subpar...

I take it you haven't tried AC/5 and UAC/5 after the February patch?

[Extra Guac]

ScrapIron Prime, on 28 February 2022 - 07:10 AM, said:

I take it you haven't tried AC/5 and UAC/5 after the February patch?

They're alright in QP. UAC/5 is viable in some cases. There's still not a lot of situations where you would want to use regular AC5s.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Extra Guac, on 28 February 2022 - 07:22 AM, said:

They're alright in QP. UAC/5 is viable in some cases. There's still not a lot of situations where you would want to use regular AC5s.

AC/5's still fit very nicely alongside IS PPC's. Used to be your firing pattern was PPC+AC, AC, PPC+AC... Now it's PPC+AC, AC, AC, PPC+AC. Very nice, though they fire fast enough now they're almost a face-time weapon.

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 28 February 2022 - 07:33 AM.

[RefrigeratorRaider2]

Vxheous, on 27 February 2022 - 09:46 PM, said:

John Bronco already mentioned this, but IS MPL, CERPPC, and UAC5/10 Ballistic assaults ruled for 2 years prior to cauldron changes in Quick play and Comp (easily proven as you can go back and watch all the pusha pusha pusha 6vs6 leagues that existed from 2019-2021). I also still play this game fairly casually now, and I still dominate with whatever mech I choose to play with, and ERLL boats don't give me any more issues than ballistic boaters, or laser vom, or any other viable build, other than the fact that ERLL boats can actually be played in quick play now as opposed to prior where you'd only see them in Faction play and comp matches.

There is no actual reduced time to kill per se other than all the other weapons were brought up to what IS MPL, big ballistic builds, were able to do prior to cauldron. So prior, if one team all had IS MPL builds, and ballistic builds, and the other team had an assortment of laser vom, brawl, etc, the TTK that team 1 could produce was far better than team 2. Now if the same scenario were to happen today, both teams should realistically have the same TTK. It only seems like TTK is reduced because all the lesser functioning weapons were brought in line with the good functioning weapons, so there are far more viable playstyles (without handicapping yourself) now than compared to 2 years ago

You're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[Curccu]

Ghost of Kyiv2, on 28 February 2022 - 07:39 AM, said:

You're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion.

It's awesome that player with your experience and skill knows better than players who have played since closed beta and pretty on much highest level there is.

But good constructive critics past 4? replies.

[Vxheous]

Ghost of Kyiv2, on 28 February 2022 - 07:39 AM, said:

You're wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion.

Again, my achievements in this game show that I actually understand the mechanics of this game, unlike you.

Extra Guac, on 28 February 2022 - 07:06 AM, said:

IS MPL, CERPPC, and UAC5/10 were never overpowered though. People liked to play them, but they weren't overpowered. JGx & the other top teams still beat all those teams every year using primarily ERLL's. Pushing has never been a stronger playstyle than trading.

Now, ballistics are subpar, MPL's were replaced by SPL's, ERPPC's are still good, and ERLL's are stronger than ever.

True brawl weapons like SRM's and AC20's are still completely unplayable - that's why they've never been used in the world championship finals, and they never will be.

SRMs and AC20s have been used in Comp, have you even played comp? Think about who you're talking to before you make outlandish claims about what has/hasn't happened in comp play please. If you're still confused, you can check my profile here.

Edited by Vxheous, 28 February 2022 - 12:37 PM.

[Extra Guac]

Vxheous, on 28 February 2022 - 12:34 PM, said:

Again, my achievements in this game show that I actually understand the mechanics of this game, unlike you.



SRMs and AC20s have been used in Comp, have you even played comp? Think about who you're talking to before you make outlandish claims about what has/hasn't happened in comp play please. If you're still confused, you can check my profile here.

I never said they haven't been used in comp. I know who you are, and I am not confused about anything.

[Gas Guzzler]

Extra Guac, on 27 February 2022 - 06:59 PM, said:

Part of the imbalance is due to reduced time to kill, which favors high alphas and long-range builds over high DPS builds.

High DPS builds kill faster than low DPS high alpha builds unless you are light weight and make yourself an extremely easy target, so this isn't really an accurate statement. Also, DPS dump is boring and mind numbing. Maybe you want to hold W and MB1 but other people want to use their brains and good positioning.

Extra Guac, on 27 February 2022 - 06:59 PM, said:

There's also a massive disparity in favor of the IS side right now. And it's not due to the weapons themselves, it's due to the superior mounts of Battlemasters & Stalkers combined with the higher ghost heat limit for IS. 6ERLL's will outtrade 4ERLL's every time.

Bring a couple Gauss rifles with your 4 cERLLs then if you are having trouble.

It's funny, either faction feels OP when the other team is dominating the map, and 75% of your team is huddled in a hole somewhere where you and a couple others are the only ones trying to trade. But in the end it boils down to one team being better than the other, not so much the mechs. Not in this game at this point in time.

Extra Guac, on 28 February 2022 - 06:53 AM, said:

If anything, TBR is a sub-average heavy, and NTG is situational.

False. Certified "Misinformed" right here.

[Extra Guac]

Gas Guzzler, on 28 February 2022 - 02:05 PM, said:

Bring a couple Gauss rifles with your 4 cERLLs then if you are having trouble.

Thanks, but I am not having any trouble. There are no top-tier gauss + 4ERLL builds right now.

High-DPS builds kill faster than high-alpha builds in a 1v1 situation, but obviously that's not applicable here. You should really try to understand the game a little better before spouting off with misinformed ideas such as this.

I actually prefer sniping, so your comments about what I "want" to do are inaccurate. I was merely explaining the state of balance.

TBR is still pretty weak. NTG is pretty good in some spots.

[Vxheous]

Extra Guac, on 28 February 2022 - 01:31 PM, said:

I never said they haven't been used in comp. I know who you are, and I am not confused about anything.

Ok, just checking. In regards to JGx, JGx will always spam ERLL (or ERPPC of they're stronger) + fast wolfpack over the last 3+ years, and they come from a long history of long range spam dating back to when they were part of/affiliated with CSJx (I mean, the comp community calls a certain area on Tourmaline CSJ hill for a reason, its literally a super campy long range trade space). At this point in the game, JGx will pretty much use whatever is the "best" long range weapon to fit their strats, be it AC2s, ERLLs or ERPPC depending on how the balance shifts. ERLLs tend to get favoured the most since its the easiest weapon out of the three to use at long range on top of the fact that it helps mitigate invisible walls to an extent (hitscan area till you get hit vs shooting a single projectile that gets swallowed by invis wall)

Extra Guac, on 28 February 2022 - 02:14 PM, said:

Thanks, but I am not having any trouble. There are no top-tier gauss + 4ERLL builds right now.

High-DPS builds kill faster than high-alpha builds in a 1v1 situation, but obviously that's not applicable here. You should really try to understand the game a little better before spouting off with misinformed ideas such as this.

I actually prefer sniping, so your comments about what I "want" to do are inaccurate. I was merely explaining the state of balance.

TBR is still pretty weak. NTG is pretty good in some spots.

Gas Guzzler knows what he's talking about. Laser Vom TBR is pretty good again, I play it nowadays and it almost feels like the old TBR of 2014/2015

Edited by Vxheous, 28 February 2022 - 02:18 PM.

[Extra Guac]

That true about JGx - but, I don't think they are incapable of switching to short-range or mid-range strats. I think they continue to use long-range because it's superior to anything else.

[Vxheous]

Extra Guac, on 28 February 2022 - 02:31 PM, said:

That true about JGx - but, I don't think they are incapable of switching to short-range or mid-range strats. I think they continue to use long-range because it's superior to anything else.

Its not that long range is superior to everything else, its more JGx being able to exert map control at range while supporting their wolfpack (which is using short ranged mechs). I also forgot to comment about what you said in regards to MPL/CERPPC/UAC2/5/10 not being overpowered, and you're right. They were the best weapons in the game for a good 2 years without being overpowered, which is what led to the Cauldron doing the weapon pass to bring everything else up to the standards of the MPL/CERPPC/UAC2/5/10 mechs TTK

Edited by Vxheous, 28 February 2022 - 03:02 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Extra Guac, on 28 February 2022 - 02:14 PM, said:

Thanks, but I am not having any trouble. There are no top-tier gauss + 4ERLL builds right now.

High-DPS builds kill faster than high-alpha builds in a 1v1 situation, but obviously that's not applicable here. You should really try to understand the game a little better before spouting off with misinformed ideas such as this.

I actually prefer sniping, so your comments about what I "want" to do are inaccurate. I was merely explaining the state of balance.

TBR is still pretty weak. NTG is pretty good in some spots.

High DPS meta results in pusha pusha pusha gameplay with abysmally low TTK. Why would I be talking about 1v1s?

No top tier 4cERLL Dual Gauss builds? Define top tier..