31 replies to this topic

[Goedmaker]

RNG is something that makes sense for a tabletop game, but makes for pretty inconsistent and frustrating moments in a PvP shooter like MWO. There are other RNG mechanics in MWO but the random chance to jam on UACs seems like the most noticeable during games. UACs are obviously still very strong but it would be nice to see them balanced more around other mechanics instead of RNG.

You could try removing the random jam chance in favor of something similar to RAC jam bar or the flamer overheat bar, or just increase UAC heat gen, any of these would make UACs have more consistent damage output. This could also make ballistic builds more viable on the lighter mechs that only have the tonnage for one or two autocannons, since they have the heat management to spare.

[VeeOt Dragon]

yeah i almost never use UACs because RNjesus hates my ***. half the time i jam up on the first trigger pull even with mechs that have a jam chance quirk. at most i can get off maybe 2 or 3 double taps with a UAC/10 before it jams on me. i see others just double tap for days without a jam while i spend half a match with my weapon jammed up.

[Fragga ONE]

Welcome to laser spam online I do like UACs but unless you have a nice peek n poke spot ur going to have these issues.

[justcallme A S H]

Cauldron/Navid had a plan to change UAC completely.

However that really needs a PTS so it's on the back burner for now.


That said I personally don't find UACs a problem. ACs and UACs now have a better place distinguished between each of them that I find myself using either in different ways which is good. RNGJesus sometimes gives me the holy spirit of free double taps and sometimes he hamstrings me for 7s... It's annoying sure, but I would not say it's unbalanced.

[Rkshz]

Goedmaker, on 24 August 2021 - 02:33 PM, said:

RNG is something that makes sense for a tabletop game, but makes for pretty inconsistent and frustrating moments in a PvP shooter like MWO. There are other RNG mechanics in MWO but the random chance to jam on UACs seems like the most noticeable during games. UACs are obviously still very strong but it would be nice to see them balanced more around other mechanics instead of RNG.

You could try removing the random jam chance in favor of something similar to RAC jam bar or the flamer overheat bar, or just increase UAC heat gen, any of these would make UACs have more consistent damage output. This could also make ballistic builds more viable on the lighter mechs that only have the tonnage for one or two autocannons, since they have the heat management to spare.

I completely agree with you
if RNGjesus favors you, you will kill quickly and a lot - but if RNGdevil curse you, and you become a failure in your eyes and a burden to the team
the optimal solution is to greatly increase heating (for double shot)

[KodiakGW]

Good luck with this Goedmaker. I've been railing against RNG based jams for a long time, with it falling of deaf ears. Even have video proof how much it sucks.

July 2017 Pre UAC "fix" - https://youtu.be/AmmMRlT9O-I
July 2017 Post UAC "fix" - https://youtu.be/MNeMPTH_cxU
January 2018 - https://youtu.be/1ZQNPJvJviI

Looks like the powers that be won't be making any change soon, if at all. At this point, I'd be happy to see the other extremely simple fix, match slot requirements between Clan UAC and ACs. So the 2, 5, 10, and 20 AC slots are the same as UAC slots. You don't have issues with the RNG jam? Fine, take the UACs. But, don't hinder me from not being able to fit a similar loadout using ACs. Besides, all IS ACs are either the same slot, or one less, requirement than their UAC counterpart. Clan's can't figure out what the IS did? Shameful.

[My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ]

UACs are still RNGJesus but if they were as bad as some people in this thread were making out you'd never see them on mechs without jam chance quirks.

Edited by My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, 25 August 2021 - 07:39 AM.

[1453 R]

I'd heard of a proposal being considered for eliminating jams on Ultra autocannons, but stretching out the "normal" cycle rate on them significantly. You get the up-front burst damage of the double-tap, but then the guns take much longer to reload normally than a standard autocannon. Basically, giving the two roughly equivalent overall DPS, or even allowing standards a slight overall DPS advantage, in exchange for Ultras having a fast double-tap burst spike.

Gotta admit, I find the notion intriguing. As it is, I find little reason to use standard autocannons at all when Ultras are available. Sure, the RNG jam could leave you high and dry, but the ability to have two autocannons for the price of one is generally too good to ignore. Especially when grouped up; multiple Ultras can still deal significant damage even when one or more of the guns lock up. There's a reason the Clan standard autocannon line is basically nonexistent with the exception of one specific Rifleman build and one specific (if unfortunately dominant) Ultraviolet build. Both of which would likely be better off with Ultras even now, after the Cauldron weapons patches that reduced the impact of jams on UAC/2s.

But give Ultras a significantly higher cycle time in exchange for that double-tap? Now there's a discussion to be had. Are you doing a peek-n-poke build that wants to shoot twice quickly then fade away? Are you making a DuraBrawler that wants to get stuck in and fight until somebody's dead? Or are you trying to strike a balance and need to figure out which way to swing? It'll be interesting to see how builds fall out, if that change ever does happen.

[FupDup]

My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, on 25 August 2021 - 07:39 AM, said:

UACs are still RNGJesus but if they were as bad as some people in this thread were making out you'd never see them on mechs without jam chance quirks.

There is indeed a difference between a design flaw and a balance flaw. UACs are strong balance-wise but aren't very well designed IMO.

[ThreeStooges]

I avoid rac/uac due to the lunar high jam rate. Even a 15-30% quirk doesn't do me good stacked with that 20 or so nodes to fp skill dump. Nothing is more annoying than to have that one or two guns plus ammo jam as an enemy in your face gets to whip you around and bend you over while all you see is WEAPON JAMMED.

Well no ****. It's even worse when using s med or god forbid a single uac/rac on a light. AC or bust when it comes to guns on my mechs.

[1453 R]

To be fair to PGI (which I'm rarely inclined to do, but in this specific case why not), MWO has been plagued throughout its history with an intense drive to stick as close as humanly possible to tabletop canon lore. Ultras jam - it's what they do. Since Ultras jam in TT, they hadda jam in MWO. It took Harebrained Schemes taking the TT rules as guidelines and suggestions and getting away with it - financially, since I'm morally certain 'Mech Dads were just as vicious to HBS as they usually are to Piranha over any deviation in mechanics even when it makes no god damned sense to stick to TT numbers/rules/implementations - before Piranha started bothering with anything different. And even then, mostly the damage was done.

Ultras jamming is thanks to tabletop rules and the BattleTech fanbase's vitriolic hatred of making any changes to their forty year old rulebooks, even in a completely different medium where those forty year old rulebooks actively get in the way. Blame Piranha, sure...but also blame 'Mech Dads.

[FupDup]

1453 R, on 25 August 2021 - 03:05 PM, said:

To be fair to PGI (which I'm rarely inclined to do, but in this specific case why not), MWO has been plagued throughout its history with an intense drive to stick as close as humanly possible to tabletop canon lore. Ultras jam - it's what they do. Since Ultras jam in TT, they hadda jam in MWO. It took Harebrained Schemes taking the TT rules as guidelines and suggestions and getting away with it - financially, since I'm morally certain 'Mech Dads were just as vicious to HBS as they usually are to Piranha over any deviation in mechanics even when it makes no god damned sense to stick to TT numbers/rules/implementations - before Piranha started bothering with anything different. And even then, mostly the damage was done.

Ultras jamming is thanks to tabletop rules and the BattleTech fanbase's vitriolic hatred of making any changes to their forty year old rulebooks, even in a completely different medium where those forty year old rulebooks actively get in the way. Blame Piranha, sure...but also blame 'Mech Dads.

On that note, HBS' solution was the most overpowered thing imaginable. They just do straight-up double the damage of regular ACs for no drawback other than +1 ton (and certain upgraded versions actually weigh less than regular ACs). That, combined with the huge damage buffs the sub-20 ACs got, leads to some really obnoxious things like a fully upgraded UAC/2 doing the equivalent of 14 damage per turn (35 x 2, converts to 7 x 2 in normal BT/MWO terms) for only 5 tons.

A compromise Piranha could've done was to use the "jam bar" thing that MWLL and MWO RACs use. That way they still jam but it's not RNG-based.

Edited by FupDup, 25 August 2021 - 03:14 PM.

[1453 R]

To be fair, Ultras in HBS's game also built up severe recoil penalties to their accuracy very quickly. Not that a skilled enough pilot doesn't more or less completely disregard those penalties, but still.

I'm more a fan of the idea of HBS' changes, i.e. "what works for this medium? What works for our game, instead of the tabletop?" Ultras in general don't make any damn sense at all - who wouldn't want to literally double their firepower at a cost of precisely zero tons in exchange for relatively low hits to reliability? The weapons are straight upgrades to regular autocannons, which made sense when they were rare and impossible-to-manufacture Lostech but stops working when they're just regular-*** guns. Why not fidget with their mechanics to make more sense in the game we're playing, instead of the tabletop game at least half the people here have never seen?

[LordNothing]

uacs really should only jam when you start spamming them. make the jam chance increase as you use the weapon, and then decrease while the weapon is idle. the first double tap would have a very low chance of jamming. i think jam chance peaks at about 15% so maybe 2-5% per shot, and decay about a % per second. perhaps cap the jam chance at 25%, but you would have to fire several times in rapid succession to get there.

[Phemto5]

So this not a dead thread, so I think that you can have RNG for spamming after the second tap. even a harsh RNG after the double tap. But give us the double tap. with UAC2 it will not be as bad of a punishment but jam up that uac20 and you will be hating yourself.

[Bowelhacker]

When you have all four UACs jam the first time you fire them you know it's not going to be a good day. Which happened to me today and **** that, I'm going back to regular ACs.

[Curccu]

Phemto5, on 11 April 2022 - 05:47 PM, said:

So this not a dead thread

One could claim it is if last post was 8 months ago...

[Meep Meep]

It's still an annoying issue for sure. First tap jams especially are annoying. I would understand it jamming if you double tapped but single taps should never jam.

[feeWAIVER]

Can anyone confirm that spamming left click will jam you more?
Meaning, when it's on cool down, if you're still clicking each click is a chance to jam?
Meaning, clicking appropriately on cool down will present less opportunities for jam?

[Weeny Machine]

The worst are UAC/20s...the enemy is basically in your face and suddenly your main weapon jams lolololol