98 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

KaptinOrk, on 28 March 2022 - 09:24 AM, said:

Why is there so much salt in this thread? We're getting a completely new 'mech for the first time in years, why are you so mad about it?

I wouldn't describe it as anger. It's not like anybody is saying "How DARE you add a new mech to the game! I never wanted more mechs! Curse you!!!"

It's more a sense of underwhelmingness. Depending on which variants are chosen and how the quirks are dialed, its long-term effect on the game might either be significant or entirely nil.

Another factor is the potential for revenue. The reason PGI stopped making mech packs was because most of them never even broke even in terms of paying back what they cost to produce. The Crusader might wind up the same way, which would make any subsequent releases even less likely. It makes sense to go for the gold in terms of which mechs would sell the most units so that PGI has incentive to keep doing more of it. The Crusader does have mechdad nostalgia in its favor, but there have been a lot of mechdad picks that didn't sell very well.

All of this being said, I'll happily eat my words if we get the 14-laser variant because that would actually add something truly novel and unique to the Inner Sphere side (whether or not it's comp-meta compliant is another story). Most of the other variants though...not very inspiring. However, I'm not going to place my bets on that kind of outlier variant (at least not until a future booster pack or loyalty reward?).

[FLG 01]

FupDup, on 28 March 2022 - 01:03 PM, said:

The Crusader does have mechdad nostalgia in its favor, but there have been a lot of mechdad picks that didn't sell very well.

It is all subjective, of course, but I would not be surprised if the nostalgia for the Crusader is stronger than that for the Assassin and Dervish combined. It is closer to Marauder, Warhammer, and Rifleman levels, though arguably not quite there, and those did sell very well apparently.

The Crusader is late to the party so it may not become the success it could have been earlier in MWO's life cycle. But I struggle to think of a Mech that could outperform it in sales.

(It is easy to think of Mechs which potentially outperform it in game, and Mechs which bring greater novelty, but that is an entirely different discussion).
_

Edited by FLG 01, 28 March 2022 - 01:19 PM.

[FupDup]

FLG 01, on 28 March 2022 - 01:18 PM, said:

-snip-
But I struggle to think of a Mech that could outperform it in sales.
-snip-

Unironically, Urbanmech IIC.

It has a rare intersection of mechdads, memes, and meta all in one. Russ did also once comment that the Urbanmech sold way more than anything else. I wouldn't expect Urbie IIC to be as profitable as its IS counterpart, but it would probably do well enough.

EDIT: The Bane is another likely profitable choice (and meta), but we already have plenty of dakka assaults.

Edited by FupDup, 28 March 2022 - 01:24 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Any variant without missiles would be awesome thanks.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Nomad Tech, on 29 March 2022 - 06:00 AM, said:

Any variant without missiles would be awesome thanks.

There ARE two canonical variants without missiles. We'll see what we get.

[PocketYoda]

ScrapIron Prime, on 29 March 2022 - 06:02 AM, said:

There ARE two canonical variants without missiles. We'll see what we get.

I know hence my ask.

[martian]

Lockheed_, on 29 March 2022 - 06:36 AM, said:

including the laser vomit and the HG variant is gonna be the only way to make the Crusader not flop like the Dervish for example with its almost interchangeable variants. I fear that those will be locked in a reinforcements pack though and they'd want us to spend 20 bucks to unlock those and another 15 to get them.

Do not fear! Just wait patiently to see what is in the upcoming 'Mech Pack.

[ScrapIron Prime]

wait... patiently... This is a Crusader, man. These two words do not go together!

[LordNothing]

resounding meh.

i mean its nice they are making mech packs again. but these aren't the droids im looking for.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 March 2022 - 07:52 AM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

the concept art is awesome, but I'll have to see it with ingame-graphics.
if it's as awesome there, there'll be a preorder



p.s.: Now, the long wait for the UrbieIIC begins.

[TheArisen]

I'd ask for a few mechs ahead of the Crusader but I think it's a decent pick for nostalgia. The 14 energy 6T variant should make the cut though and the 6D would be nice as a fast missile bomber.

Nostalgia picks are a potentially good way to bring people back and as Fup said the Urbie IIc is probably one of the few mechs that has both meme, nostalgia and even in game potential. I'd bring up the Dragon Fire or Men Shen as my top picks personally but Argus has nostalgia and could be quite good although it does depend on it's arms a lot.

Of course there is Black Python which is a mech that could break the game with it's meta-ness but aside from Urbie IIc you could mention Shadow Hawk IIc for a nostalgia + decent in game mech for the Clans

[martian]

Lockheed_, on 29 March 2022 - 08:45 AM, said:

I am in no hurry. I've never asked for a Crusader. I want to like it because we are finally getting a new mech but it's kinda meh, I just don't want to see them screw up again and release something that only the mechdads will buy and the release overall will be a fail.

I understand your feelings, but try to see it from the different perspective: It could be unwise to release a new 'Mech that would be unattractive for "mechdads", i.e. for a significant part of the remaining playerbase/customer base.

[martian]

Lockheed_, on 29 March 2022 - 09:25 AM, said:

I totally understand that they have to release mechs that are attractive to mechdads, BUT they need to make the mech also attractive for the rest of the player base as well, or they will end up where they left off; mech packs barely breaking even.

I do not have access to the PGI's sales data, but my impression is that for example Marauder, Warhammer, Archer or Rifleman or other classical 'Mech Packs sold well. The MWO players knew those 'Mechs from BattleTech Technical Readouts, BattleTech novels, BattleTech games, BattleTech scenario books, etc.

I thought that the problem arose with some of the later 'Mech Packs containing some obscure or weak 'Mechs: Hellfire, Incubus, Champion, etc. - this kind of 'Mechs.

Edited by martian, 29 March 2022 - 09:36 AM.

[1453 R]

Nobody's arguing that, Martian. Fup put it quite well, really: all people are really doing is lamenting the fact that while the Crusader is the clear and present Obvious Best Choice for appealing to 'Mech Dads, completionists, TT purists and lore hounds, it doesn't really bring anything worthwhile to the game itself other than its name. It's simply an underwhelming chassis from a purely mechanical/MWO-Player standpoint.

Even the much-hyped 14e variant is not likely to do much. The Sphere doesn't have micro lasers to pad out ganged hardpoints with, and Sphere small beams tend to stink. Super high energy count Clan 'Mechs like the Executioner use a combination of large pulse lasers and micro lasers to do a bracket build that doesn't significantly compromise the original cLPL armament whilst adding some helpful extra punch in a close-quarters brawl. A 65-ton Sphere heavy 'Mech cannot do this - it doesn't have the tonnage for three-plus large pulse lasers and 10+ small lasers, nor does it really have the room for adequate heat sinking to cool such a build. The 85-ton STK-7D with its nine energy hardpoints is a monster, yes, but it also tends to struggle to find adequate cooling for its already beefy energy array Giving a 'Mech twenty tons lighter half again the hardpoint count means just about the only thing you can do with all 14 slots is ghost heatless small laser spam. Plus, of course, the vast majority of the 6T's mess of hardpoints are in arms with elbows and hands, which means exactly eight slots for six hardpoints in each limb.

What you'll see from the 6T is almost certainly two snub PPCs or large pulse lasers in the torso mounts as main guns, backed by twelve basic/ER small lasers in the arms as a 'backup' armament. It'll be able to poke like a smallish medium from midrange whilst trying to angle for a close-range laser strike. Something like this: CRD-6T is about the best I can do, and I had to pull mor armor off the legs than I'm remotely comfortable with just to fit the engine large enough for the extra heat sink. Elsewise you have a light 300 with a half-ton to spare and nothing good to use it, with four tons left to spend and seven different locations with two-slot openings too small to shove an additional over-fat Sphere DHS into. Nor can you drop to a STD engine and shove the DHS in there, because you run out of slots overall. Drop Endo for LFF and a STD 275, like so, and you can get two extra heat sinks at the cost of a significant speed deficit that doesn't really help something with an effective range of "Junk Punch."

And this is the most unique* variant ofd the 'Mech. The others are all bog-standard missile chunkers going 4/6 like three quarters of all Succession wars-era BattleMechs ever built.

Nobody's saying the Crusader is a bad 'Mech, or a rotten choice, or anything like that. All some folks are saying is that it's unfortunate the final 'Mech Dad collector's piece the game needs is kinda boring. By all means, collect the piece! Enjoy! Just...now that you've got your final piece, in the vanishingly unlikely scenario we get a second new 'Mech, can it be something that actually does something within hailing distance of new and cool?

[ScrapIron Prime]

Okay then, I'll pose the question... what mech could PGI release at this point that WOULD bring something totally new to the experience? Something that no other chassis can do? (And let's count out game code things like melee or crazy things like land air mechs.)

[1453 R]

ScrapIron Prime, on 29 March 2022 - 10:11 AM, said:

Okay then, I'll pose the question... what mech could PGI release at this point that WOULD bring something totally new to the experience? Something that no other chassis can do? (And let's count out game code things like melee or crazy things like land air mechs.)

Dunno. it's why I'm not really upset about the Crusader. But I know that when the Warden pack dropped and we got jumping Dire Whales with worthwhile loadouts and ECM-capable Timberpuppies, both of those felt new and exciting to play. They got me into a Dire Whale for the first time pretty much ever- I'd sold my non-(I) Whales from the Clan drop and stripped my (I) for armor and parts.

It's possible for them to shake things up. Not easy, and perhaps not likely. And people will often claim that the thing doing the shaking is wrong/bad/broken/Ohh-Pee/PEE TWO DUBBLEYOO(!!), because the MWO fanbase hates everyone and everything including itself.

But still possible.

[martian]

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

Nobody's arguing that, Martian. Fup put it quite well, really: all people are really doing is lamenting the fact that while the Crusader is the clear and present Obvious Best Choice for appealing to 'Mech Dads, completionists, TT purists and lore hounds, it doesn't really bring anything worthwhile to the game itself other than its name. It's simply an underwhelming chassis from a purely mechanical/MWO-Player standpoint.

The problem is that almost all MWO 'Mech niches are already filled with some 'Mech(s). So name a 'Mech that would be interesting for 'mechdads' AND bring something new AND would be powerful.

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

Even the much-hyped 14e variant is not likely to do much. The Sphere doesn't have micro lasers to pad out ganged hardpoints with, and Sphere small beams tend to stink. Super high energy count Clan 'Mechs like the Executioner use a combination of large pulse lasers and micro lasers to do a bracket build that doesn't significantly compromise the original cLPL armament whilst adding some helpful extra punch in a close-quarters brawl. A 65-ton Sphere heavy 'Mech cannot do this - it doesn't have the tonnage for three-plus large pulse lasers and 10+ small lasers, nor does it really have the room for adequate heat sinking to cool such a build.

Are you seriously comparing the top-end Clan Assault OmniMech with the low-end IS BattleMech? Are you seriously complaining that this low-end BattleMech is not as powerful as that Clan Assault?

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

The 85-ton STK-7D with its nine energy hardpoints is a monster, yes, but it also tends to struggle to find adequate cooling for its already beefy energy array Giving a 'Mech twenty tons lighter half again the hardpoint count means just about the only thing you can do with all 14 slots is ghost heatless small laser spam. Plus, of course, the vast majority of the 6T's mess of hardpoints are in arms with elbows and hands, which means exactly eight slots for six hardpoints in each limb.

65-tonner such as Crusader is not in the same category as the 85-ton Stalker ....

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

What you'll see from the 6T is almost certainly two snub PPCs or large pulse lasers in the torso mounts as main guns, backed by twelve basic/ER small lasers in the arms as a 'backup' armament. It'll be able to poke like a smallish medium from midrange whilst trying to angle for a close-range laser strike. Something like this: CRD-6T is about the best I can do, and I had to pull mor armor off the legs than I'm remotely comfortable with just to fit the engine large enough for the extra heat sink. Elsewise you have a light 300 with a half-ton to spare and nothing good to use it, with four tons left to spend and seven different locations with two-slot openings too small to shove an additional over-fat Sphere DHS into. Nor can you drop to a STD engine and shove the DHS in there, because you run out of slots overall. Drop Endo for LFF and a STD 275, like so, and you can get two extra heat sinks at the cost of a significant speed deficit that doesn't really help something with an effective range of "Junk Punch."

As I have said once or twice, you do not know what variants PGI will offer, what hardpoints they will have, what stats they will have and what quirks they will have.

Would not be wiser to wait with your theories until the content of the upcoming 'Mech Pack is published?

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

And this is the most unique* variant ofd the 'Mech. The others are all bog-standard missile chunkers going 4/6 like three quarters of all Succession wars-era BattleMechs ever built.

PGI can adjust existing variants and even create their own variants. I would wait with the theorymongering until it is clear what is on the table.

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

Nobody's saying the Crusader is a bad 'Mech, or a rotten choice, or anything like that. All some folks are saying is that it's unfortunate the final 'Mech Dad collector's piece the game needs is kinda boring. By all means, collect the piece! Enjoy! Just...now that you've got your final piece, in the vanishingly unlikely scenario we get a second new 'Mech, can it be something that actually does something within hailing distance of new and cool?

This is what you said:
"... visibly crap hitboxes/geo ..."
" ... an indescribably mediocre pile of forgettable average ..."

[1453 R]

Martian, can you maybe not nitpick my posts to death just because I'm not soiling my panties in quivering, slobbering, uncontainable excitement over this thing? I'll do you a favor and not return the nastiness this time, but seriously dooder. Enough.

I get it, you're a 'Mech Dad, you're overjoyed to get the final piece of your collection and you don't care whatsoever if it's any good or not. Huzzah! Victory for Martian! Victory for ScrapIron! Victory for 'Mech Dads! Victory for...not much of anyone else, really? Certainly not victory for 1453-R, and given the understanding that this is the absolutel last new chassis we will ever get forever because it's a literal bleeding miracle the game recovered enough for this one last gasp to happen in the first place?

Maybe a girl has some cause to feel a bit forlorn about that, huh?

[martian]

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 10:41 AM, said:

Martian, can you maybe not nitpick my posts to death just because I'm not soiling my panties in quivering, slobbering, uncontainable excitement over this thing? I'll do you a favor and not return the nastiness this time, but seriously dooder. Enough.

I merely quoted what you said.

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 10:41 AM, said:

Victory for...not much of anyone else, really?

In one of your previous posts you pretended that you are talking for all BattleTech players and now you are doing it again - pretending that you are talking for MWO players.

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 10:41 AM, said:

I get it, you're a 'Mech Dad, you're overjoyed to get the final piece of your collection and you don't care whatsoever if it's any good or not. Huzzah! Victory for Martian! Victory for ScrapIron! Victory for 'Mech Dads! Victory for...not much of anyone else, really? Certainly not victory for 1453-R, and given the understanding that this is the absolutel last new chassis we will ever get forever because it's a literal bleeding miracle the game recovered enough for this one last gasp to happen in the first place?

I do not know if I am a 'mechdad' or not, whatever it is. But I can say that I am certainly not overjoyed. And I do care and I do think before buying something.

Actually, I have explained my position once or twice before in this very thread:

• "I am quite okay with waiting to see what variants of the Crusader 'Mech Pack PGI will offer."
  
• "I am quite okay with waiting to see what variants (and with what hardpoints) PGI will offer."
  
• "Yes, I am always ready to check a new 'Mech pack and then I decide if I will buy it or not."
  
• "As I just said, I can wait. I will check the upcoming PGI's 'Mech Pack offer and all available info and then I will make the purchase - or not."

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 10:41 AM, said:

Maybe a girl has some cause to feel a bit forlorn about that, huh?

Perhaps you should just wait to see the content of the Crusader 'Mech Pack. You could also wait for the promised Devlog that should detail some PGI's MWO plans.

Edited by martian, 29 March 2022 - 11:02 AM.

[martian]

Upcoming Crusader variants:

Piranha Games Inc. said:

Crusader Preorder will be up tomorrow.

Here are some letters and numbers to read while you wait!

• CDR-3R
  
• CDR-5K
  
• CDR-5M
  
• CDR-6T
  
• CDR-7L

Check the details:

• CRD-3R - the standard model with a pair of LRM-15, a pair of SRM-6s, a pair of MLs, a pair of MGs
  
• CRD-5K - modern Drac model with MRM-30s in arms, 2* MPLs in center torso, 1 ML in LT, 1 ML in RT, jump-capable
  
• CRD-5M - modern Marik jump-capable model
  
• CRD-6T - modern Davion model with 14 energy hardpoints, jump jets and high engine cap (325-rating default, so 390-rating max?)
  
• CRD-7L - Stealth Liao model (i.e. ECM-equipped); lower engine cap with jump jets

Unfortunately, it seems that CRD-8S with the high ballistic hardpoint did not make it.

Edited by martian, 30 March 2022 - 01:04 PM.