98 replies to this topic

[pbiggz]

ScrapIron Prime, on 01 April 2022 - 09:46 AM, said:

Well nobody NEEDS the Piranha with 14 or 15 energy hard points either, not when you have an Arctic Cheetah with 7, right? =P

Clans have microlasers. Apples and oranges.

[ScrapIron Prime]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 09:55 AM, said:

Clans have microlasers. Apples and oranges.

Maybe so, but now we can buy a whole crate of oranges. =)

And we all know that 14 SPL deal better damage over time than 7 MPL.

[1453 R]

ScrapIron Prime, on 01 April 2022 - 09:37 AM, said:

Yeah, we can always use one of the other IS mechs with 14 energy hard points.

Oh wait... there aren't any.

As an experiment: CRD-6T Custom Mockup
Accounting for the presence of hands and elbows in a Crusader's arms that demands two additional slots per arm, this is at 78/78 slots. It's also the heaviest halfway practical armament I can think of that will feasibly fit on the whole 14E layout. You could do 6MPL/6SPL in the Stank Fists and ignore the torso energy, or shove a couple extra SPL in the torso for the memes. Either change requires trading Endo for LFF due to slot restrictions, with the best-ish result I can sort out looking like this: CRD-6T Custom Mockup 2

The first one, with large lasers, MPLs, and small lasers, will be disastrously hot with only 15DHS to accomodate a volcanic laser load, but there's actually factually no additional room to shove heat sinks into the machine. If you want to use all fourteen hardpoints, there's no room in the arms for even a single extra DHS, and using two-slot energy weapons in the torso also means you have room for exactly two DHS per shoulder with the light engines you'd be looking at. The 'Mech is a symphony of "two slots left here" - both legs and the CT obviously, but also both arms and both shoulders. Even downgrading to a STD 250 leaves you high and dry - there's no physical room for six external DHS, and no weight for it either unless you downgrade the torso beams. Larger XL engines can accomodate more heat sinks, but good luck convincing anyone to run anything other than a STD or LFE.

The Stank Fister does slightly better, with 17DHS due to gaining room in each shoulder for the extra sink, but it's also a slow energy brawler with only mediocre cooling. Two of its lasers are pointless memes in the chest that don't follow the rest of the weapons at all unless you're one of those terrible awful no good very bad players that insists on Always On Arm Lock Forever. Its range is also donkey; you can deal semi-minor damage out to 'bout 300m and that's pretty much it. Maybe 330 with a lot of range nodes nobody takes on brawlers anyways.

The Sphere simply doesn't have a good way to use 14 energy hardpoints. Its DHS are too damn fat, you can't pack in both the scads of lasers and also the sort of cooling you need to use the scads of lasers. I stripped more armor than is good for it off of my STK-7D to shove in every last possible DHS I could cram in under the (remaining) armor, on a 'Mech with twenty more tons to work with, four additional slots from its lack of hands and elbows, and energy hardpoints in very slot-efficient locations in the CT and head. I managed to cram 20 DHS into it to support nine beams, and it's still uncomfortably hot.

Half again the hardpoint count on a twenty tons lighter 'Mech that sacrifices four slots to extranous actuators? There's simply no good way to use it all. There's lulzy memey ways that will catch people by surprise and lead to YouTube montages, for sure. But no good way. Not that I can figure out, at any rate.

Edited by 1453 R, 01 April 2022 - 10:36 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

My theory crafting has it using 12 ERSL, 2 SNPPC, and a 325 light engine. I'm sure that will change when they announce quirks.

[1453 R]

ScrapIron Prime, on 01 April 2022 - 10:37 AM, said:

My theory crafting has it using 12 ERSL, 2 SNPPC, and a 325 light engine. I'm sure that will change when they announce quirks.

Tried that too. The amount of armor you have to pull off of it to get that seventeenth heat sink in there is not nice. You're missing nearly two full tons of plating at that point, you can't thin legs alone that much. Gotta pull points off the everywhere-else some, too. It's why I gave up the 325-rated engine as a bad job in my theorycrafting; unless the thing gets stupid armor quirks - and it won't, with that much firepower and potential mobility going for it - it simply doesn't have the wherewithal to run that much engine and maintain maximum cooling. Sphere stuff is cooler than Clan stuff, but it ain't that much cooler.

[martian]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 08:16 AM, said:

It wont be anything new

There are some interesting variants:

• CRD-CRAEL will bring 10 ballistic hardpoints. There is no IS heavy 'Mech with 10 ballistic hardpoints.
  
• CRD-6T will bring 14 energy hardpoints on a jump-capable platform. There is no IS heavy 'Mech with 14 energy hardpoints, not to talk about JJs on the same 'Mech.
  
• CRD-7L will bring ECM, 2 energy and 6 missile hardpoints and jump jets. There is no IS heavy 'Mech with ECM, 2 energy and 6 missile hardpoints and JJs.
  
• CRD-5M offers the option to carry a pair of AMS. There are some rare IS heavies that can do that, sure, So it is not entirely new. But I see nothing wrong with having this option on Crusader too. After all, you do not have to use them, if you do not want to.

So I think that Crusader will bring something new.

[pbiggz]

martian, on 01 April 2022 - 11:40 AM, said:

• CRD-CRAEL will bring 10 ballistic hardpoints. There is no IS heavy 'Mech with 10 ballistic hardpoints.
  
• CRD-6T will bring 14 energy hardpoints on a jump-capable platform. There is no IS heavy 'Mech with 14 energy hardpoints, not to talk about JJs on the same 'Mech.
  
• CRD-7L will bring ECM, 2 energy and 6 missile hardpoints and jump jets. There is no IS heavy 'Mech with ECM, 2 energy and 6 missile hardpoints and JJs.
  
• CRD-5M offers the option to carry a pair of AMS. There are some rare IS heavies that can do that, sure, So it is not entirely new. But I see nothing wrong with having this option on Crusader too. After all, you do not have to use them, if you do not want to.

So I think that Crusader will bring something new.

The Crael will be a good brawler, but short of SRMs and machine guns on a 65 tonner i doubt you'll see too much.

As we've discussed, the 6T's14 energy hardpoints is too many to effectively use.

2 energy on the 7L is quite low. it wont be bad but its utility will be limited.

The 5M will be alright.



Im not hating on it, its just gonna be sort of samey. Its not a big deal.

[martian]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 11:45 AM, said:

The Crael will be a good brawler, but short of SRMs and machine guns on a 65 tonner i doubt you'll see too much.

The problem is that "Crael" debuts in the moment when the MWO meta shifts towards the ranged combat and sniping.

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 11:45 AM, said:

As we've discussed, the 6T's14 energy hardpoints is too many to effectively use.

It depends. There are one or two loadouts that I would like to try. After all, one does not have use every single hardpoint.

On top of that, quirks have really helped some 'Mechs. It seems to me that PGI and Cauldron have been attempting to make viable as many 'Mechs as possible.

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 11:45 AM, said:

2 energy on the 7L is quite low. it wont be bad but its utility will be limited.

I think that those energy weapons will be mostly used just to supplement missiles.

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 11:45 AM, said:

The 5M will be alright.

Twin AMS can be useful during weekend events, especially if those events call for LRM damage.

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 11:45 AM, said:

Im not hating on it, its just gonna be sort of samey. Its not a big deal.

MWO has dozens of various 'Mechs. It is almost inevitable that some 'Mechs will be similar.

[ScrapIron Prime]

1453 R, on 01 April 2022 - 11:38 AM, said:

Tried that too. The amount of armor you have to pull off of it to get that seventeenth heat sink in there is not nice. You're missing nearly two full tons of plating at that point, you can't thin legs alone that much. Gotta pull points off the everywhere-else some, too. It's why I gave up the 325-rated engine as a bad job in my theorycrafting; unless the thing gets stupid armor quirks - and it won't, with that much firepower and potential mobility going for it - it simply doesn't have the wherewithal to run that much engine and maintain maximum cooling. Sphere stuff is cooler than Clan stuff, but it ain't that much cooler.

Yeah, you're right. Dropping back to smalls instead of ER smalls and lowering the engine a touch to a 315 is about the best I can do. https://mwo.nav-alph...d56788ac_CUSTOM

Again, it will all change once we see quirks...

[FLG 01]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 11:45 AM, said:

As we've discussed, the 6T's14 energy hardpoints is too many to effectively use.

I would not be too sure. There is a reason why a number of experienced and capable players is looking forward to this. Be it the one-two-punch with 12xML (330LFE, 19DHS or lower engine for more DHS), 6xML+8xERSL, 4xLL+10SL...
How well those work remains to be seen, and while some will run hot, it is not set in stone that they would run too hot.

Please, keep in mind: We never had anything like it before. This is totally new territory, so there will be a lot of trial and error.

I for one look forward to those experiments rather than dismissing them summarily.

[pbiggz]

oh no,

Im not here to poopoo it. The art is good, its got pretty good (if potentially redundant) hardpoints. Quirks will make or break it as always. I look forward to seeing it in game.

[FLG 01]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 12:38 PM, said:

Im not here to poopoo it.

I did not think you would.

I am just a little sceptical about that "too many energy hardpoints to use"-thing. This needs to be tested, I know quite a few good players who see potential in it. I do, too. Even if we only use 12 or just 10, the Crusader would still be unique and worth it.

And if it does not work out... then the Crusader is still an icon that pays the bills and keeps the servers running.

(I was never much of a Crusader-fan myself and I have a list of a dozen Mechs I would prefer but none of them appeal to the playerbase as much as the Crusader. So here we are.)

[martian]

FLG 01, on 01 April 2022 - 12:28 PM, said:

I would not be too sure. There is a reason why a number of experienced and capable players is looking forward to this. Be it the one-two-punch with 12xML (330LFE, 19DHS or lower engine for more DHS), 6xML+8xERSL, 4xLL+10SL...
How well those work remains to be seen, and while some will run hot, it is not set in stone that they would run too hot.

Please, keep in mind: We never had anything like it before. This is totally new territory, so there will be a lot of trial and error.

I for one look forward to those experiments rather than dismissing them summarily.

FLG 01, on 01 April 2022 - 12:49 PM, said:

I did not think you would.

I am just a little sceptical about that "too many energy hardpoints to use"-thing. This needs to be tested, I know quite a few good players who see potential in it. I do, too. Even if we only use 12 or just 10, the Crusader would still be unique and worth it.

And if it does not work out... then the Crusader is still an icon that pays the bills and keeps the servers running.

(I was never much of a Crusader-fan myself and I have a list of a dozen Mechs I would prefer but none of them appeal to the playerbase as much as the Crusader. So here we are.)

You are right. After all, CRD-6T is not the first energy boat with many hardpoints in MWO.

I am looking forward to test in the game.

[Bowelhacker]

pbiggz, on 01 April 2022 - 07:51 AM, said:

ladies please. You're both pretty.

Ladies, please. After this display no one* is going to want to **** either of you.


*speaking on behalf of the whole player base?

[FLG 01]

martian, on 01 April 2022 - 01:01 PM, said:

You are right. After all, CRD-6T is not the first energy boat with many hardpoints in MWO.

Indeed.

What makes it exiting is that it is the first one for the IS. The techbase changes dynamics a lot. The reason clan weaponry is so hot is due to the small DHS. (TT clan weapons are usually not hotter than their IS counterparts).

Now we get a 14 hardpoint beast with relatively cool weapons but larger DHS. Actually I suspect PGI lowered the -6T's engine cap for that very reason: it should have been 390, and 375 would have allowed for one more internal engine DHS. Now how many would have used such an engine is anyone's guess... I would have.

Anyway, the sheer number of possibilities is exiting. Fast or slow, 1-2-punch (12x ML), bracket builds (HPPC+SL), primary and secondary laser batteries (LL+SL). It also means you cannot know what kind of loadout your enemy will bring, which is exiting again.

My cavalry heart mourns for the loss of the 375 engine, but I got some nice 350+ builds in mind. No idea if they work or not.

But that is the beauty of this Mech. Other Mechs would have meant a lot less experimenting.

1453 R, on 29 March 2022 - 09:44 AM, said:

All some folks are saying is that it's unfortunate the final 'Mech Dad collector's piece the game needs is kinda boring.

Obviously that is highly subjective, but out of curiosity: what would have been your pick?

The UrbanMech IIC for example, while it probably would sell well enough, bores me to death. Again, subjective... Others would love it. And if it helps keeping the servers online, I am fine.

[martian]

FLG 01, on 03 April 2022 - 03:24 AM, said:

Indeed.

What makes it exiting is that it is the first one for the IS. The techbase changes dynamics a lot. The reason clan weaponry is so hot is due to the small DHS. (TT clan weapons are usually not hotter than their IS counterparts).

You are right.

FLG 01, on 03 April 2022 - 03:24 AM, said:

Now we get a 14 hardpoint beast with relatively cool weapons but larger DHS. Actually I suspect PGI lowered the -6T's engine cap for that very reason: it should have been 390, and 375 would have allowed for one more internal engine DHS. Now how many would have used such an engine is anyone's guess... I would have.

Well, we must do with what we have.

FLG 01, on 03 April 2022 - 03:24 AM, said:

Anyway, the sheer number of possibilities is exiting. Fast or slow, 1-2-punch (12x ML), bracket builds (HPPC+SL), primary and secondary laser batteries (LL+SL). It also means you cannot know what kind of loadout your enemy will bring, which is exiting again.

My cavalry heart mourns for the loss of the 375 engine, but I got some nice 350+ builds in mind. No idea if they work or not.

But that is the beauty of this Mech. Other Mechs would have meant a lot less experimenting.

I am pretty sure that if we can design some good loadouts for 9-hardpoint Black Knight or Hero Thunderbolt "Top Dog" or 8-hardpoint Grasshopper or Warhammer, then we will surely be able to come with some interesting loadouts for CRD-6T.

And as I said above, although the 'Mech will have 14 energy hardpoints available, we do not have to necessarily fill every single one with some weapon. We will see.

FLG 01, on 03 April 2022 - 03:24 AM, said:

The UrbanMech IIC for example, while it probably would sell well enough, bores me to death. Again, subjective... Others would love it. And if it helps keeping the servers online, I am fine.

In my opinion UrbanMech IIC's appeal is very overrated by some people.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

you two, stop nagging on my UrbieIIC ..

[martian]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 03 April 2022 - 05:57 AM, said:

you two, stop nagging on my UrbieIIC ..

[Alex Morgaine]

ScrapIron Prime, on 01 April 2022 - 12:26 PM, said:

Yeah, you're right. Dropping back to smalls instead of ER smalls and lowering the engine a touch to a 315 is about the best I can do. https://mwo.nav-alph...d56788ac_CUSTOM

Again, it will all change once we see quirks...

eh Ima looking at 150-200m with this https://mwo.nav-alph...d4141f87_CUSTOM