23 replies to this topic

[EPJ]

I originally posted this on the steam discussions for mwo, re-posting it here in the hopes of getting more involved in the topic. that and it looks like only a had full of people are ever on steam Discussions for mwo.

This was my first idea for changing the game mode, at the bottom I will have the newest idea that I had for the game mode.

Ok, so I think this game mode can be a lot more enjoyable with these changes in mind.

.1: Change the pre-game game mode/map select. Have it so the game mode is picked first, then the map. have it so that not all maps are available for this game mode.

.2: Change it so only medium/smaller size maps can be used with this game mode. This is for 2 reasons one you will see later in the list (check 3). I don't know if you have had this happen but I have had games were one team won but the last mech alive was already on the slow side and legged, and now has to walk all the way over to tickle the base one time to win. They can even take some of the large maps like Polar Highlands and cut it into smaller peaces, turn one map into 2 to 3 smaller ones.

.3: Add repair bays to the base like in mechwarrior 5. can fix armor but not internal structure. (so if your missing a leg or arm your not getting it back.) To keep this from being over used there will be 1 or 2. and maybe around a 5 min cool down before they can be used again. and maybe make it so it needs a power cell to use again even after the 5 min cool down. and with a smaller map this will give even assault mechs a possible chance to make use of this repair bay.

.4: Replace the base attack drop ship with artillery. They will fire ether at the other base or mechs, will prioritize other mechs over base. will only fire at base when no other mechs are left. as for how it works it will need a power cell, it will be just like a strike with smoke for mechs to see so they know its about to fire at that spot but maybe change the color from red smoke to yellow.( does not have to be that color.) It runs for 2 mins firing a total of 2 times 1 each min. so once at the start and once again 1 min later. with maybe a 1-3 min cool down before it can be used again.

.5: change the match score. from what i can tell there is no c-bills that you can get from attacking the base, no bonus for taking out the radar. there should be something for taking out each of these key base functions.

This is what I thought of, any and all ideas/criticisms are welcome but please try to share in detail why you don't agree with one or more parts to the changes I listed. I'm just trying to think of ways they can make this game mode more enjoyable.

The New idea.

I just had an idea! What if... there was only one base- in the middle of the map. 2 repair bays on each side, one radar, one jamming tower. NO power cells needed, instead, have a cap point by each of these that, when taken, will give them access to what ever its next to, eg repair bay,radar, ect.

and maybe just no artillery or attack drop ship. but there could be turrets, that have to be turned on by capping a generator. to keep them from being to OP. maybe one can have just one large laser and the others can have like 2 small lasers or normal smg. maybe around like 4-6 turrets. after maybe like 8-10 mins they will be fixed and can be turned on again? or would that be to much?

no cap points like in Conquest. one team wins when one side has capped everything or the other team is all dead or the time runs out and the side that has more mechs + base caps wins.

How about that?

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[martian]

EPJ, on 30 March 2022 - 08:49 AM, said:

This is what I thought of, any and all ideas/criticisms are welcome but please try to share in detail why you don't agree with one or more parts to the changes I listed.

I read your post and there are one or two things that I would like to ask about ...

Now to those main points:
1. I always select the game mode first, since I vote for Incursion (if available) and Conquest whenever they are offered. Map is a secondary concern for me.



2. The situation that you described can happen, but in my experience it is not too common thing. Usually once one team starts snowballing and wipes out the enemy team, at least three or four victorious 'Mechs survive. Some of them are in sufficiently good shape to hit the enemy base.

Essentially, this is a rare situation in already rarely played game mode.

I tested that a 'Mech moving some 30 km/h can move from the center of the Polar Highlands map to the map edge in about 3-4 minutes. No big fun, but I think it is tolerable once a week or two or once a month.

3. What if some not-so-smart player (that type that goes capping the remotest base in the slowest Assault 'Mech in Conquest) visits the repair base to repair one insignificant laser scratch and effectively blocks the base for the rest of his team?

4. If this attack is strong, the players will prioritize it. If it is weak, the players will ignore it.

Plus, what if one team gets assigned by the matchmaker one or two fast 'Mech that can bring fuel cell(s) quickly and start the enemy base bombardment, while the other team has no such 'Mechs?

5. In my experience in the majority of Incursion games the players go after the enemy base after they wiped out the enemy team. Typically one single player will not attack the enemy base alone, and some greater group of players will raze the enemy base outright, if they are already there. Offering C-Bill bonus for the destruction of a Radar tower is possible, but a bit pointless.

EPJ, on 30 March 2022 - 08:49 AM, said:

I'm just trying to think of ways they can make this game mode more enjoyable.

Very commendable effort.

[TheCaptainJZ]

The problem with Incursion, like every game mode, is that the best way to win is to kill all the enemies. There are also no respawns in MWO so we are limited in what kinds of objectives work in MWO.

Incursion was an attempt to add depth to a simple game mode, but it landed with a thud. I think the main reason is because MWO is not designed around objective-based gameplay nor are the maps. Incursion would do better if it were played on FP maps, but then you'd have asymmetrical gameplay which is not likely to play fairly.

A game mode where strategic structures can be captured and trade hands over the duration of a match could be a fun game mode. I'm thinking of MechCommander-type missions.

[Saved By The Bell]

Radar+ecm bonus should cover almost all map for 1-2 min.

That support air control have to do something.

Base defense should be around 10 times stronger.

[EPJ]

martian, on 30 March 2022 - 09:45 AM, said:

I read your post and there are one or two things that I would like to ask about ...

oh man, you have no idea how refreshing it is to get a comment like this. I kid you not, this post that I made on steam has 85 comments on it. and about 60 of them are from 2 people having a pissing contest and mostly off topic. was really annoying.

martian, on 30 March 2022 - 09:45 AM, said:

2. The situation that you described can happen, but in my experience it is not too common thing. Usually once one team starts snowballing and wipes out the enemy team, at least three or four victorious 'Mechs survive. Some of them are in sufficiently good shape to hit the enemy base.

Essentially, this is a rare situation in already rarely played game mode.

I tested that a 'Mech moving some 30 km/h can move from the center of the Polar Highlands map to the map edge in about 3-4 minutes. No big fun, but I think it is tolerable once a week or two or once a month.

Ya, your right. It's a rare thing, and I guess its not that big of a deal. but this was also why I posted the second idea of only having one base in the middle of the map. everyone tends to go to the middle of most maps to battle so moving it there helps keep it useful.

martian, on 30 March 2022 - 09:45 AM, said:

3. What if some not-so-smart player (that type that goes capping the remotest base in the slowest Assault 'Mech in Conquest) visits the repair base to repair one insignificant laser scratch and effectively blocks the base for the rest of his team?

I was thinking about that as well. was talking with my brother who also plays the game about that. He suggested that there be a minimal damage needed to use the repair bay, like you have to be around 75% or lower to use it. It should not take long to use but also not just give full armor back. like maybe 25%-30% of your armor back.

martian, on 30 March 2022 - 09:45 AM, said:

4. If this attack is strong, the players will prioritize it. If it is weak, the players will ignore it.

EPJ, on 30 March 2022 - 08:49 AM, said:

and maybe just no artillery or attack drop ship. but there could be turrets, that have to be turned on by capping a generator. to keep them from being to OP. maybe one can have just one large laser and the others can have like 2 small lasers or normal smg. maybe around like 4-6 turrets. after maybe like 8-10 mins they will be fixed and can be turned on again? or would that be to much?

In the new idea, i just decided it would be better to scrap the idea of arty or attack drop ship all together and try turrets, not sure if this is a better idea or not.

martian, on 30 March 2022 - 09:45 AM, said:

Plus, what if one team gets assigned by the matchmaker one or two fast 'Mech that can bring fuel cell(s) quickly and start the enemy base bombardment, while the other team has no such 'Mechs?

EPJ, on 30 March 2022 - 08:49 AM, said:

NO power cells needed, instead, have a cap point by each of these that, when taken, will give them access to what ever its next to, eg repair bay,radar, ect.

I changed the idea to this as a lot of people that I talked to in game about this say they disliked the idea of losing one mech, because they are stuck running back to the base to drop a power cell off.

martian, on 30 March 2022 - 09:45 AM, said:

5. In my experience in the majority of Incursion games the players go after the enemy base after they wiped out the enemy team. Typically one single player will not attack the enemy base alone, and some greater group of players will raze the enemy base outright, if they are already there. Offering C-Bill bonus for the destruction of a Radar tower is possible, but a bit pointless.

In the new idea the raydar and repair bays could all just be indestructible, so no need or point in trying to kill buildings. just go and get caps next to them to make use of them.

EPJ, on 30 March 2022 - 08:49 AM, said:

I just had an idea! What if... there was only one base- in the middle of the map. 2 repair bays on each side, one radar, one jamming tower. NO power cells needed, instead, have a cap point by each of these that, when taken, will give them access to what ever its next to, eg repair bay,radar, ect.

no cap points like in Conquest. one team wins when one side has capped everything or the other team is all dead or the time runs out and the side that has more mechs + base caps wins.

[trash compactor 3263827]

I'd like to try it with one simple change: Base must be completely destroyed to get the win. If neither base is destroyed the game is a tie. They could rename this mode assault.

[EPJ]

TheCaptainJZ, on 30 March 2022 - 09:52 AM, said:

The problem with Incursion, like every game mode, is that the best way to win is to kill all the enemies. There are also no respawns in MWO so we are limited in what kinds of objectives work in MWO.

Incursion was an attempt to add depth to a simple game mode, but it landed with a thud. I think the main reason is because MWO is not designed around objective-based gameplay nor are the maps. Incursion would do better if it were played on FP maps, but then you'd have asymmetrical gameplay which is not likely to play fairly.

A game mode where strategic structures can be captured and trade hands over the duration of a match could be a fun game mode. I'm thinking of MechCommander-type missions.

Is a fair point. maybe this should just be removed from quick play and move it over to Faction Play.

[TheCaptainJZ]

trash compactor 3263827, on 30 March 2022 - 10:34 AM, said:

I'd like to try it with one simple change: Base must be completely destroyed to get the win. If neither base is destroyed the game is a tie. They could rename this mode assault.

Assault is already in use but admittedly, that mode is not very Assault-y.

[TheCaptainJZ]

EPJ, on 30 March 2022 - 10:38 AM, said:

Is a fair point. maybe this should just be removed from quick play and move it over to Faction Play.

Instead, I'd lower the complexity of the idea for QP. If possible, have different power positions around the map, like Conquest, except each of these has an effect like radar coverage or jamming or turret control. Whoever captures the location (simple square) controls the assets until the enemy team takes control. Win condition would probably still be to kill all mechs. In addition, maps could be tweaked to support these.

A pure destruction objective, like Demolition in MW5, has potential here I think. If we were to add a game mode, I think that is a logical choice. You can make it either symmetrical or asymmetrical. You need to be sure it's not just one structure that can be shot from any angle to pull of the win too, but multiple structures. Something like a symmetrical siege mode (from FP) could work.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 30 March 2022 - 11:09 AM.

[martian]

EPJ, on 30 March 2022 - 10:32 AM, said:

Ya, your right. It's a rare thing, and I guess its not that big of a deal. but this was also why I posted the second idea of only having one base in the middle of the map. everyone tends to go to the middle of most maps to battle so moving it there helps keep it useful.

Having one base (objective) is a logical solution, just personally I do not like the idea that 95% of the map would be ignored by the players, since both teams would converge in the center of the map. Essentially, this is the problem of almost all MWO game modes.

EPJ, on 30 March 2022 - 10:32 AM, said:

I was thinking about that as well. was talking with my brother who also plays the game about that. He suggested that there be a minimal damage needed to use the repair bay, like you have to be around 75% or lower to use it. It should not take long to use but also not just give full armor back. like maybe 25%-30% of your armor back.

I think that your idea of the minimal damage threshold sounds good.

Or maybe making it the way it was in MechWarrior 3, MechWarrior 4 and MechCommander 2: If you leave the MFB early, your 'Mech will not be repaired fully.

EPJ, on 30 March 2022 - 10:32 AM, said:

In the new idea, i just decided it would be better to scrap the idea of arty or attack drop ship all together and try turrets, not sure if this is a better idea or not.

MWO used to have turrets around the bases a few years ago. Some games ended in a tie, since both teams were left with one or two battered 'Mechs that were too damaged to attack the enemy turret-protected base with one or two similarly damaged enemy 'Mechs sitting there.

EPJ, on 30 March 2022 - 10:32 AM, said:

I changed the idea to this as a lot of people that I talked to in game about this say they disliked the idea of losing one mech, because they are stuck running back to the base to drop a power cell off.

The primary problem of the Incursion game mode is that those three towers are not important enough.

PGI expected that the players will fight over those Fuel Cell sources to keep their towers powered, but once the players found out that those towers are unnecessary ... well, both those Fuel Cell sources and the towers have been usually ignored ever since.


By the way, welcome to the MWO forums!

[pbiggz]

Respawns

[Akamia Terizen]

trash compactor 3263827, on 30 March 2022 - 10:34 AM, said:

I'd like to try it with one simple change: Base must be completely destroyed to get the win. If neither base is destroyed the game is a tie. They could rename this mode assault.

IIRC, that already was the case at one point; they changed it away because nobody wanted to play it that way.

Which makes me sad. It’s my favorite gametype.

[Beastbear]

As said above, there are a few issues with the mode, but THE biggest problem with any mode other than skirmish is players TREAT it like skirmish. "you can lead a horse to water......."

[CreativeAnarchy]

I see incursion as assault with extra PVE.

I will vote for it opposite of conquest and skirmish.

We need bigger teams for this kind of game mode, maybe add a third faction on the same map and probably would be better as a separate game mode.

[pbiggz]

Beastbear, on 30 March 2022 - 11:45 PM, said:

As said above, there are a few issues with the mode, but THE biggest problem with any mode other than skirmish is players TREAT it like skirmish. "you can lead a horse to water......."

Its the responsibility of the designers to prevent players from engaging in toxic behaviour. If you can play every game mode like skirmish (we can and do), then the game modes are flawed.

CreativeAnarchy, on 31 March 2022 - 05:05 AM, said:

I see incursion as assault with extra PVE.

I will vote for it opposite of conquest and skirmish.

We need bigger teams for this kind of game mode, maybe add a third faction on the same map and probably would be better as a separate game mode.

If you vote incursion over conquest you have brain worms. Conquest is objectively the best gamemode in the game. Adding a third faction to incursion wouldn't do anything to help, and the matchmaker can't make games like that anyway.

Incursion was transparently a gamemode designed with respawns in mind. Transparently. I wonder if at some point it was meant for Faction Play, but got repurposed for quickplay instead.

[PocketYoda]

Remove voting completely..

Make incursion not a team deathmatch in the center..

[CreativeAnarchy]

pbiggz, on 31 March 2022 - 05:14 AM, said:

Its the responsibility of the designers to prevent players from engaging in toxic behaviour. If you can play every game mode like skirmish (we can and do), then the game modes are flawed.



If you vote incursion over conquest you have brain worms. Conquest is objectively the best gamemode in the game. Adding a third faction to incursion wouldn't do anything to help, and the matchmaker can't make games like that anyway.

Incursion was transparently a gamemode designed with respawns in mind. Transparently. I wonder if at some point it was meant for Faction Play, but got repurposed for quickplay instead.

You would be the one with brain worms thinking conquest is so great. Conquest is an awful game mode.

Incursion would work better with 3 teams. I know the MM won't be able to handle it and nothing I suggested would happen anyway, same with the OP, nothing in there will happen especially with changing how the match maker works, but that is how I feel it would make it work better, otherwise I stand by it being a different assault with more PVE because it plays the same.

The different game modes don't really add much, I like assault, domination and incursion over skirmish and will vote skirmish over conquest. The only reason I don't vote skirmish as much is because of those fast mechs that want to run and hide to keep up their k/d and making the rest of us wait for the timer. At least with modes other than skirmish, there is a way to just end it. Conquest just sucks. Some like to run around and stand in the squares but I'd bet most of the player base would rather just fight.

[pbiggz]

CreativeAnarchy, on 31 March 2022 - 08:26 AM, said:

You would be the one with brain worms thinking conquest is so great. Conquest is an awful game mode.

It forces teams to split up and cover more ground, thereby reducing the chance of a nascar or a mindless skirmish. To be sure, lots of people still play it like skirmish so im not saying its perfect, its just the least ****** of the bunch.

CreativeAnarchy, on 31 March 2022 - 08:26 AM, said:

Incursion would work better with 3 teams. I know the MM won't be able to handle it and nothing I suggested would happen anyway, same with the OP, nothing in there will happen especially with changing how the match maker works, but that is how I feel it would make it work better, otherwise I stand by it being a different assault with more PVE because it plays the same.

The different game modes don't really add much, I like assault, domination and incursion over skirmish and will vote skirmish over conquest. The only reason I don't vote skirmish as much is because of those fast mechs that want to run and hide to keep up their k/d and making the rest of us wait for the timer. At least with modes other than skirmish, there is a way to just end it. Conquest just sucks. Some like to run around and stand in the squares but I'd bet most of the player base would rather just fight.

We have six different flavours of skirmish. You are right about that.

[DaZur]

pbiggz, on 30 March 2022 - 08:53 PM, said:

Respawns

Respawns =/= Faction play... Effectively.

I'd rather see like three matches linked together by a logical psudo-semi repair period between them.

Match 1: Incursion Match 2: Domination Match 3: Assault
- Between matches your mech is fundamentally repaired and re-armed. That said, you lose a limb, you don't get it back (You lose a leg, you will be limpy McLimpy). If you are on the losing side you might randomly have resupply issues and you might only get half a load of ammo... Such is the life of battlefield logistics!

The whole idea is to create a sense of prolonged conflict, cause and effect and repercussions for playing recklessly and without tactic. It also adds a dynamic impact on team strength. That dominant Direwolf in match 1 lost a leg and two large lasers... The Lurmcat that tossed all their LRMs in match 1 now only has half their ammo count... That Rifleman that managed to come out of match 1 largely unscathed is now bumped to battlefield front-line contender.

This is what MWO was SUPPOSED to be...

[pbiggz]

DaZur, on 31 March 2022 - 10:15 AM, said:

Respawns =/= Faction play... Effectively.

I'd rather see like three matches linked together by a logical psudo-semi repair period between them.

Match 1: Incursion Match 2: Domination Match 3: Assault
- Between matches your mech is fundamentally repaired and re-armed. That said, you lose a limb, you don't get it back (You lose a leg, you will be limpy McLimpy). If you are on the losing side you might randomly have resupply issues and you might only get half a load of ammo... Such is the life of battlefield logistics!

The whole idea is to create a sense of prolonged conflict, cause and effect and repercussions for playing recklessly and without tactic. It also adds a dynamic impact on team strength. That dominant Direwolf in match 1 lost a leg and two large lasers... The Lurmcat that tossed all their LRMs in match 1 now only has half their ammo count... That Rifleman that managed to come out of match 1 largely unscathed is now bumped to battlefield front-line contender.

This is what MWO was SUPPOSED to be...

Now that is a pipe dream, but it would be cool.