161 replies to this topic

[Neutron IX]

YueFei, on 05 April 2022 - 09:05 AM, said:

Not all Assaults are meant to share armor. For some Assaults, their role is to be a massive gunboat and suppress enemies and control the map. That is, the value of their tonnage comes from their guns, not from their armor.

As long as they are contributing and not hiding, an Assault pilot doesn't have to be up front taking hits. Watch your minimap, try to understand what sectors of the map they are helping to control, and use their cover fire to advance or retreat or flank the enemy.

Keep in mind that although it is tempting from our perspective as brawlers to think of the snipers as being too far back... the corollary to that is that maybe you and I are too far forward. Or maybe it's 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Either way, communicate it, and either we gotta move back, or we gotta ask the snipers to re-position to better cover us, or a bit of both.

Oh, I totally get that, and agree for the most part. The bummer is when it's ALL the Assaults on your team playing the "not meant to share armor build" game. A Sniper or LRM-boat or two can be a real bonus to map control and added damage. Even the psychological effect it can have on an opposing player can be useful (see my first couple of posts, hehe).

But when you get a few drops where EVERY Assault is a Sniper on your team, while all or most of the opponent Assaults are up in your grill shredding your faces, it's a bit frustrating, is what I'm saying. Just as it was when it was happening that way with LRM boats.

And I truly do get it. Sniper Assaults now are getting all the same salt that LRM Assaults have been getting for years, but my point is simply that I understand that frustration well from both sides, and think there's valid points to be found in each perspective. My personal solution was to embrace LRM-ishing, which I find to be more fun anyhow. Not sure what the solution is for Sniper Assaults. Snipe-ishing?

And I tend to be an "over-communicator" in drops, so in the specific case I cited above, I assure you, communication was not the part that was lacking.

[Neutron IX]

DaZur, on 05 April 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

Actual truism that few folks can wrap their heads around...

I cannot numerate the times I find myself in a kill box getting wrecked, die shake my fist at the screen and damn my teammates for not helping me... to then realize I over extended and was outside the potential coverage umbrella.

Self assessment and recognition can be a real MF'r...

Oh, I know when I die to overextension, and I take my knocks with the best of them.

But I also know the difference between engaging at range, intelligently, and hiding out while your team is getting slaughtered, and in the case I cite above, this was much more the latter. I don't believe this scenario should be too hard to imagine for most of us, as I'm sure we can all cite examples.

And again, I'm saying this as someone who's been on both ends of the stick, and both understands the frustration some are bringing to the forums, AND is dedicated to adapting instead of just being upset about it, because I recognize that the "problem" at large is generally more about adjustment than it being a #ActualProblem.

I'm definitely down to #NotAllSnipers this situation, but I'll also be understanding to those who are struggling because just as some players are having a hard time adapting to the sniper game, some snipers are having a hard time remembering this is a team game. We live in a world where both things can be true.

*Edited to add (as another point to reinforce the "no matter how it feels right now, Snipers are not ACTUALLY OP" perspective), just as I've seen both LRM boating Assaults, and now Sniping Assaults hiding in the back while their team dies, I've probably just as often seen them sneaking off to some "nest" they think will give them control of a battlefield, totally unsupported, and then get swamped by the enemy push, or a wolf-pack/hunter-killer team, before quitting the match, sometimes even whining about "how could we let them die like that?!!".

It's a knife that cuts both ways, and again, I think should hopefully help all of us remember that these builds aren't actually "OP", even as they maybe generate some community frustration as we adjust to the rise in their prevalence. And that, as has been mentioned, and to the great points from both of you and others in this thread, the REAL OP is teamwork, communication, and situational awareness.

Edited by Neutron IX, 05 April 2022 - 10:04 AM.

[YueFei]

DaZur, on 05 April 2022 - 09:15 AM, said:

Actual truism that few folks can wrap their heads around...

I cannot numerate the times I find myself in a kill box getting wrecked, die shake my fist at the screen and damn my teammates for not helping me... to then realize I over extended and was outside the potential coverage umbrella.

Self assessment and recognition can be a real MF'r...

Yep! We all screw up (or, as one buddy who does boxing told me, "there's nobody who never gets hit").

Except for the dudes who play competitively, everyone else is just playing for fun casually. We all stress enough at work (or school) as it is, so nobody should expect to play "gud" all the time... and honestly in Quickplay we shouldn't be expecting our teammates to play "gud" all the time, either.

I think the healthiest mindset is to acknowledge our dumb moments, laugh at ourselves, and try to get better. But never rage over it, and don't get frustrated about not getting immediate improvement. For non-comp players, it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. Just to find joy in the attempt at learning, at trying new tactics or new builds, that's what I hope to get outta my gaming experience.

Neutron IX, on 05 April 2022 - 09:20 AM, said:

Oh, I totally get that, and agree for the most part. The bummer is when it's ALL the Assaults on your team playing the "not meant to share armor build" game. A Sniper or LRM-boat or two can be a real bonus to map control and added damage. Even the psychological effect it can have on an opposing player can be useful (see my first couple of posts, hehe).

But when you get a few drops where EVERY Assault is a Sniper on your team, while all or most of the opponent Assaults are up in your grill shredding your faces, it's a bit frustrating, is what I'm saying. Just as it was when it was happening that way with LRM boats.

And I truly do get it. Sniper Assaults now are getting all the same salt that LRM Assaults have been getting for years, but my point is simply that I understand that frustration well from both sides, and think there's valid points to be found in each perspective. My personal solution was to embrace LRM-ishing, which I find to be more fun anyhow. Not sure what the solution is for Sniper Assaults. Snipe-ishing?

And I tend to be an "over-communicator" in drops, so in the specific case I cited above, I assure you, communication was not the part that was lacking.

Haha, yeah sometimes that's just how the cookie crumbles in Quickplay. It's a bunch of random players and random mech builds thrown together, and sometimes it's just a "crappy hand" that your team is dealt. Like getting a team of 100% brawlers on the old Polar Highlands map, or 100% snipers on Solaris. It happens sometimes, and all you can do is see how much lemonade you can make out of the lemons. Don't sweat the end result, try not to get upset at losing in such scenarios, just see how much harder you can make the enemy team work for it, and just enjoy the moment. After all, it's not an actual battle with real stakes, it's only a video game.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

its the Problem with Special Builds <Great when the tactical Situation help your Build ,helpless when its come to the other Extreme .
When you good with Gauss and have a Peek a Boo fight ,a sniper is perfect (alpine) in each otehr Situation (Solaris ) her has not the DPS for a Fight to win it on close Quater.Without each Control over the Map and tactical situation is a Poker Game and 50/50 thats the Brawler/Sniper is useless.
The best Build for MWO is a Mix of Weapons or Weapons with
-low Heat
-high DPS
-over all Ranges
and give you Mech the fastest Speed you can with his Weapons ,and not to many Ammunition thats more is as for 10 Minutes fight

Edited by MW Waldorf Statler, 06 April 2022 - 08:13 PM.

[Horseman]

MW Waldorf Statler, on 06 April 2022 - 08:11 PM, said:

its the Problem with Special Builds <Great when the tactical Situation help your Build ,helpless when its come to the other Extreme .
When you good with Gauss and have a Peek a Boo fight ,a sniper is perfect (alpine) in each otehr Situation (Solaris ) her has not the DPS for a Fight to win it on close Quater.Without each Control over the Map and tactical situation is a Poker Game and 50/50 thats the Brawler/Sniper is useless.
The best Build for MWO is a Mix of Weapons or Weapons with
-low Heat
-high DPS
-over all Ranges
and give you Mech the fastest Speed you can with his Weapons ,and not to many Ammunition thats more is as for 10 Minutes fight

Which means, more or less, dakka builds with UAC10s and 5s. They work well in generalist roles, but will lose against more specialized opponents when engaging them in the enemy's zone of comfort.

[pbiggz]

Horseman, on 07 April 2022 - 01:47 AM, said:

Which means, more or less, dakka builds with UAC10s and 5s. They work well in generalist roles, but will lose against more specialized opponents when engaging them in the enemy's zone of comfort.

Or laser vomit, probably the most common mid-range build over all.


There's a reason people run midrange frequently. It has less risks than anything else. But if you run midrange, and you try to go toe to toe with a sniper at 1000 meters, you're gonna lose, its supposed to be like that. Don't expect to win against a specialist when you let the specialist engage at the range of their choice.

[RockmachinE]

Been playing since beta in some capacity or another. This is the first meta that I really cant get behind, I cant get into it, I keep trying, but I just cant have much fun with it. I just hate the way the game plays. The only thing that was as bad was the LRM meta.

I think the game was at its peak pre-Cauldron/PPC buff patch.

[feeWAIVER]

Louis Brofist, on 07 April 2022 - 04:29 PM, said:

Been playing since beta in some capacity or another. This is the first meta that I really cant get behind, I cant get into it, I keep trying, but I just cant have much fun with it. I just hate the way the game plays. The only thing that was as bad was the LRM meta.

I think the game was at its peak pre-Cauldron/PPC buff patch.

The PPC patch that everyone complained about?
I agree! Light ppcs were doing like 7 dmg. Dmg was high, and so was the heat, and it was fun.
It's a shame they rolled that back in less than a week.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 07 April 2022 - 10:40 PM.

[pbiggz]

Louis Brofist, on 07 April 2022 - 04:29 PM, said:

Been playing since beta in some capacity or another. This is the first meta that I really cant get behind, I cant get into it, I keep trying, but I just cant have much fun with it. I just hate the way the game plays. The only thing that was as bad was the LRM meta.

I think the game was at its peak pre-Cauldron/PPC buff patch.

Broadly speaking I can't agree except for light PPCs doing 7 damage. I think slow recycle rate, high damage light PPCs made light snipers an actual threat. It was fun, and I was sad to see it go. The Cauldron decided making them an alternative to medium pulses was more interesting and frankly I don't agree with that change.

[Curccu]

pbiggz, on 08 April 2022 - 04:39 AM, said:

Broadly speaking I can't agree except for light PPCs doing 7 damage. I think slow recycle rate, high damage light PPCs made light snipers an actual threat. It was fun, and I was sad to see it go. The Cauldron decided making them an alternative to medium pulses was more interesting and frankly I don't agree with that change.

Well capable players can wreck pretty much everything LPPC light mech.

Imo not alternative weapon to MPL at all, just PPC that can be used in brawl also and fits into light mech nicely.

[pbiggz]

Curccu, on 08 April 2022 - 04:50 AM, said:

Well capable players can wreck pretty much everything LPPC light mech.

Imo not alternative weapon to MPL at all, just PPC that can be used in brawl also and fits into light mech nicely.

They're ok. I just had more fun with them when stacking 3 on a light was like giving it a punchy, ammo free AC20.

Over all, the cauldron changes have been better for the game, so if that's my only sticking point, then we did pretty well here.

[Weeny Machine]

pbiggz, on 08 April 2022 - 04:39 AM, said:

Broadly speaking I can't agree except for light PPCs doing 7 damage. I think slow recycle rate, high damage light PPCs made light snipers an actual threat. It was fun, and I was sad to see it go. The Cauldron decided making them an alternative to medium pulses was more interesting and frankly I don't agree with that change.

I like the idea that light mechs have an alternative weapon system besides lasers. Usually you can run 3 LPPCs on a light and often I feel that they lack a bit of a punch. Maybe adding a minor splash damage effect or lowering the cooldown somewhat would do the job

[Curccu]

Weeny Machine, on 08 April 2022 - 05:00 AM, said:

I like the idea that light mechs have an alternative weapon system besides lasers. Usually you can run 3 LPPCs on a light and often I feel that they lack a bit of a punch. Maybe adding a minor splash damage effect or lowering the cooldown somewhat would do the job

I personally like that lower cooldown than any? other energy weapon with similar range, I get to shoot them twice while they shoot once.

[feeWAIVER]

I feel like light Ppcs kinda suck, except for specific mechs where the weight limit / hardpoints work out just right for them.
Like I wouldn't use them on most mechs, but they are really good on the blackjack arrow for example.
Or a rifleman with AC5's can be complemented with a couple light ppcs.

But in most cases, you're better off with Er meds than light Ppcs.. 3 tons for 5.5 dmg is a steep price to pay.

Edited by feeWAIVER, 08 April 2022 - 08:16 AM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

feeWAIVER, on 08 April 2022 - 08:12 AM, said:

I feel like light Ppcs kinda suck, except for specific mechs where the weight limit / hardpoints work out just right for them.
Like I wouldn't use them on most mechs, but they are really good on the blackjack arrow for example.
Or a rifleman with AC5's can be complemented with a couple light ppcs.

But in most cases, you're better off with Er meds than light Ppcs.. 3 tons for 5.5 dmg is a steep price to pay.

Light Peeps fire slightly faster, they're pinpoint damage, they disrupt ECM, and they have a longer range. Range in Battletech is where the real tax is. I'm happy with them where they are.

[pattonesque]

LPPCs are quality on a number of lighter mechs -- Spider-5D, FS9-A, PHX-1B, JR7-K, and that new loyalty Urbie. All mechs that are fast and jumpy enough to make up for the LPPC's low damage with constant pressure.

[An6ryMan69]

The real issue is not weapons, or a sniper mentality, its the maps.

The maps are the track that the race is run on, so to speak, everything occurs within the context of the map.

Maps can be set up to make any weapon seem overpowered or useless, do the same with mech weight classes, any aspect of your mech selection, or loadout or playstyle; you name it, and the map is the single biggest influencer on it.

Guys ranting about light mechs being OP, or snipers being OP, or LRMS being OP, or precision laser builds being OP, or whatever, are actually still ignoring the elephant in the room - maps. Because all of these regular irritants can be pretty much turned on or off in effect by map design.

The details inside the environment don't matter nearly as much as the environment itself, and the map is the environment.

Fix the maps, or give players the ability to simply not drop on maps they hate, and most "gripe" threads will go away and people would be better off.

[DaZur]

An6ryMan69, on 08 April 2022 - 09:08 AM, said:

Fix the maps, or give players the ability to simply not drop on maps they hate, and most "gripe" threads will go away and people would be better off.

I partially disagree...

No matter how a map is designed players will find means to maximize and exploit them. The inference that map design can mitigate this is fallacy.

The reality is there are both hard and soft counters to every playstyle regardless of how one map seems to play into one style or another.

The problem is lemming-like play mentality and refusal to adjust playstyle on the fly based on what is encountered on the battlefield. LRM'rs and snipers are countered by active harassment and hunting them down. Mid-range and brawlers are countered by sniping and LRM spotting...

Instead time after time and match after match, the playerbase waddles in the same counter clockwise direction and funnel/converge on the same damn historical engagement points. And if you try to break from the routine you are left largely by yourself to get carnally defiled.

Maps are maps... Yes, certain topology can aid/maximize a playstyle. But plodding along following the same routine exacerbates this by feeding into the very mechanism that allows them to benefit from static playstyles.

Take the same maps and move/randomize spawn points and each iteration will play differently as it forces players to use the given topology within a reasonable distance from spawn. Yes, eventually patterns will develop for each iteration... Nothing can be done to mitigate players from seeking and utilizing areas of advantage, but at least it would deviate from the mindless slog we are forced to resign to in the current design.

[ScrapIron Prime]

An6ryMan69, on 08 April 2022 - 09:08 AM, said:

Fix the maps, or give players the ability to simply not drop on maps they hate, and most "gripe" threads will go away and people would be better off.

I also partially disagree.

"I am a highly specialized mech build. I will ONLY play on maps that favor my build and my build only."

which leads to

"Why is it taking so long to get a match?"
"Why is this match 90% snipers?"

No, the real answer is to have people play on whatever map that comes along, be it totally random or the "choice of a random few" we have now. Specialization in a mech build has a cost, situations or terrain you are far less than optimal to compete in. To eliminate those drawbacks is to invite an even more ridiculous number of customized mechs at the extremes of brawl or snipe.

Better to improve the maps. Add multiple domination points and corresponding spawn points so we use MORE of any given map. Fix the major bugs in the maps, like things you trip on and invisible walls and extreme walks for slow mechs. (And I'll plug adding the old Polar Highlands back in because every fight on it other than Domination mode was in a different place, it was great variety.)

[Nightbird]

Easily solved by allowing you to bring 3 mechs for one weight class that you can select from after the map is decided.

There, no more frustration of being stuck with a brawler on sniper map or vice versa.