63 replies to this topic

[D o z e r]

Some of you may remember my recent post about lights being OP. There were some great ideas shared in the thread. One of them by Captain Caveman DE:

Captain Caveman DE, on 24 February 2022 - 03:58 AM, said:

here's two easy cents:

if those lights are that broken - run them for a month.
Jarls is a place with open numbers, and numbers don't lie.

everybody can see just how much better you'll do in a light than the months before in non-lights,
and we all will be humbled and have to apologize and so on.

... right?
..
.

his was a great idea - if Lights really are OP, the numbers should reflect that, right? So I committed to a month of lights-only (March) as an experiment. I kept everything as similar as possible (time of day I played, group play frequency, coffee intake) and played my best for the team, as I usually do.

Some important notes on this. Firstly, I did not only play "OP Chassis" like Lynx or Piranha. I played a wide variety of mechs/builds which included S-Srm Kitfox (which ended up being my favorite), JennerIIC, Flea, LPL Incubus, Firestarter, Javelin, Commando, Urbanmech, Wolfhound... and my second favorite, an MPL/HMG Locust with Max Cap ability (which was a blast on conquest maps and still tanky/nasty dps).

You can see the results here:

https://leaderboard....rch?u=D+O+Z+E+R


I had a really strong performance, way better than the last 6 months which has had a lot of game-balancing patches and is the period I started feeling Lights were OP.

What did I conclude considering metrics and also experience?


1. "Lights are OP" is a great oversimplification. In general, they are not. Make fun of me if you want for being wrong about this, but at least I can admit it.

2. One of the main reasons "lights in general" are not OP is that Streak SRMs are absolutely devastating. Of course, streaks suck for pretty much everything else, but if you are willing to play a specific anti-light role then your team's piranha problems are solved. If not for running into streakboats every 4th or 5th match, my performance would have been way better.

3. Light play is very easy to screw up. Like any other mech, we are easily overwhelmed by 3 or more enemies. But the awesome speed and maneuverability makes it very easy to accidentally over-extend, or rush the wrong mech (see 2.) in a light. If I lost situational awareness for even a few seconds (and no, my Troll friends this doesn't mean I suck, it means I'm playing a game and sometimes life happens) I could very quickly get in the wrong place and get wiped. So the agility/mobility of lights is definitely a double edged sword. If I didn't screw up in this way every so often, my performance would have been higher.

4. There ARE two valid points underlying a lot of the complaints about lights being OP. Firstly, a certain number of lights bring out the game's hardpoint imbalance. How can it be that it is only a large number of lights that have the strongest hardpoint combos in the game? It don't think machine guns or small pulse lasers are OP - their range sucks and on a slower mech the need to close distance would make this matter even more. But a number of lights have more hardpoints than you seen in any other weight classes, and that is an imbalance. Playing around in the mech lab, the only thing I could get close to that sweet close range DPS outside of lights was a storm crow omni-mech and an Executioner A... and they still didn't really come close when testing. This fact does make me excited for the Crusader variants with lots of hardpoints, which seems to be evidence of action around this problem.

5. Secondly, the Armour Skill Tree disparity causes Assault Mechs especially to be relatively soft considering their role, hitbox size and mobility. The number of times over this month I happily corner brawled TWO assaults, and out traded them by juking around, avoiding and spreading hits all while out-DPSing them, was ridiculous. I realize this is a specific scenario, but it still matters. The reality is assaults have a hitbox AND agility disadvantage, and DO NOT deserve to have a nerfed armour skill tree considering their role on the battlefield. I used to pilot assaults because I love tanking for the team and the vital role that plays... But over this month any time I would see an Awesome, Annie, Mauler or Corsair without SSrms and/or at least two other mechs around it, I would think "cookie time!" That is wrong. I should not feel tankier in a 25 ton mech than in an Annihilator, but that is absolutely how I feel especially after this month.



To conclude, before you Trolls attack me personally as stupid, bad, selfish... I spent a month of my time doing this to get some (somewhat) meaningful data and earnestly seek the truth. I have played MW since the late 1990s (MechWarrior 2) and the builds/balancing is what makes this game different, and great. And if you really think this is all motivated by the fact that I am a terrible player, let me know when you might be in Solars and I'll be there! Hard enough to get a match these days anyways :-D

See you on the battlefield,

Edited by D O Z E R, 01 April 2022 - 12:35 PM.

[Nightbird]

You did a little worse than 3 of your seasons playing all assaults, so seems like we're right?

Edited by Nightbird, 01 April 2022 - 12:39 PM.

[An6ryMan69]

Great post.

Your point about hardpoints is strikes me as significant. It's not that lights have godly-great hardpoints, its just that so many other mechs have inexplicably awful hardpoints. Lights generally have lots of weapons and they are typically intelligently located on the chassis. Not so for many other mechs, unfortunately. Look at the Centurion for example; NOBODY would design a mech like that with so few hardpoints, the thing absolutely screams out for about six more energy hardpoints, preferably located high in the torsos for peeking. Seems to me that IS mechs are generally more beat up on by crap hardpoints than Clan mechs overall. Look at a Clan Hunchback IIC and you'll see a weapons layout that the Centurion should have had, and the IS Atlas could take a hardpoint lesson from the Clan Blood Asp for sure. If the same mentality that was in play in putting together light mechs was used across the board for all mech classes, the game would improve I think.

Lights are definitely feast or famine, I have also jumped on a fresh Kodiak and tore it a new one with a Flea. I've also been one-shotted first thing by a double ERPPC and my match ended with literally the first shot fired by anyone.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 01 April 2022 - 12:49 PM.

[chaosshade2638]

Notable hardpoint disparity is the 20-ton Piranha. It has an incredibly high top speed and more hardpoints per mounting location than any other mech (only matched by cobbled omnis). People are also inexcusably bad about protecting their assaults at times. I killed a FRESH Kodiak in full view of his team by simply face-humping him and chewing his legs off. I took no return fire until I switched targets.

Edited by chaosshade2638, 01 April 2022 - 12:56 PM.

[Curccu]

GJ playing lights only season, it would do good to loads of lights are OP crowd to see that lights can do extremely good but they can just as easily say kaboom from 1st enemy shooting 1st alpha once.
I would guess that this 1 shot risk becomes greater higher tier you are playing as opponents are better at aiming also.

Yep many chassis could use a lot more hardpoints, but then again those hardpoints on bigger mechs can take bigger guns and it sometimes balances that stuff (like HBK-IIC with twin LB20x or UAC20s I don't feel a bit undergunned), but then again there are big mechs with huge amount of hardpoints gar-d, also not easiest thing to balance weapons with this amount of hardpoints difference.

Edited by Curccu, 02 April 2022 - 02:06 AM.

[Curccu]

chaosshade2638, on 01 April 2022 - 12:55 PM, said:

Notable hardpoint disparity is the 20-ton Piranha. It has an incredibly high top speed and more hardpoints per mounting location than any other mech (only matched by cobbled omnis). People are also inexcusably bad about protecting their assaults at times. I killed a FRESH Kodiak in full view of his team by simply face-humping him and chewing his legs off. I took no return fire until I switched targets.

Can't really blame lights for 11 people being ignorant and bad?
Personally I don't play piranhas almost at all anymore because every 2nd came is so frustrating where enemy deathballs and is very aware of enemies trying to get angle on some of them, getting into kniferange against those opponents is usually just suicidal.

[chaosshade2638]

Curccu, on 01 April 2022 - 01:08 PM, said:

Can't really blame lights for 11 people being ignorant and bad?
Personally I don't play piranhas almost at all anymore because every 2nd came is so frustrating where enemy deathballs and is very aware of enemies trying to get angle on some of them, getting into kniferange against those opponents is usually just suicidal.

I'm sure he was calling for help while I was chewing his legs off, he yelled at me in the chat after he was dead.

[martian]

D O Z E R, on 01 April 2022 - 12:26 PM, said:

So I committed to a month of lights-only (March) as an experiment.... I spent a month of my time doing this to get some (somewhat) meaningful data and earnestly seek the truth.

Congratulations!

I wish more players followed your example.

[Meep Meep]

As per the op.

1) I agree. Lights can be situationally very powerful but as soon as you get two or more mechs tracking you its gtfo time.

2) Streaks can be nasty to face but I just don't see them all that often. When they do show up I avoid them like the plague unless I am running long range weapons like er meds.

3) Agree. Lose your focus and you tend to end up scrapped pretty quick. It's not a lazy mans mech for sure.

4) The thing with the clan lights with lots of hardpoints is that they can basically only use them to boat very short ranged kneecapping weapons like micro pulse and mg. Try to stick on enough weapons with some actual range on them and you quickly find yourself out of heat bar since clan energy runs hot. Thats the balancing factor. High dps from lots of hardpoints but high risk because your mech is made of tissue paper and spit and any solid hits are going to wipe you out.

5) Balancing out assault survivability vs their damage output has been a back and forth struggle since the game launched. Some are really good with the hitboxes and some are not. Not much to do about it past piling on armor quirks but you can only push that so far. Personally I think assaults as a class should get a pretty stout critical resistance bonus across the board since most have good structure but once opened then mg lights and other high crit weapons can quickly eat them up. This would mean getting caught out by an mg light would be far less painful and give time for backup to arrive or simply get in a lucky alpha and obliterate the annoyance.

Summary? Lights are extremely annoying to face when you get isolated but die in a fire vs group play.

Moral? Don't lag behind the group or if you like to play cliff sniper with the blue lazorz don't get mad when a light or two comes to collect you?

Curccu, on 01 April 2022 - 01:08 PM, said:

Can't really blame lights for 11 people being ignorant and bad?
Personally I don't play piranhas almost at all anymore because every 2nd came is so frustrating where enemy deathballs and is very aware of enemies trying to get angle on some of them, getting into kniferange against those opponents is usually just suicidal.

The only pir I play anymore is the pir-a due to its nice armor and ammo quirks. 8x hmg and some micro lasers make for a nice shredder that can take a hit before it pops.

But my go to mech anymore is this one.

FleaFlicker

Goes 175kph with a 444m optimal. Great heat management so you can just pew away with no worries even on a hot map and can do so from within the ecm bubble. I love playing this mech on the new map and have won several matches as the last mech standing by running away and sniping open components.

[Weeny Machine]

@Dozer: You forgot one thing: in this sniper / laser spam meta most assaults, and most likely those you were cornering, had loadouts for sniping/ERLL spam while your mech for sure was geared for close range (well, most lights have not much choice anyway). Try that against a brawler assault and things go most likely quite differently

The worst thing is, though, when two passive teams face each other and both camp one spot opposite one another and trade shots. Then you can wait for an eternity to engage or try it which is quite risky ZzzZZzzzzZZz

Hardpoints...seriously, if you want to advocate that heavies and assaults get even more hardpoints then this game becomes entirely unplayable because most builds will include a very good close range weaponry on top of long range laser spam (negating the last weakness of those builds) or a lol-alpha-target-goes-boom meta will rise.
The reasons why many hardpoints on light mechs is only sometimes a problem is that only low-weight weaponry can be boated. Now, you would you like to have an assault with 20 energy hardpoints round the corner in front of you? Power creep at its finest imo

Edited by Weeny Machine, 01 April 2022 - 02:13 PM.

[Kanil]

Props to you for going through with it, and coming out with a greater appreciation of both the advantages and struggles of light 'mech piloting.

[Corbantu]

Fascinating results. What I find especially interesting is the disparity between February and March. It's clear that when you first switched to lights you struggled, but there is an obvious turn around as your playstyle and familiarity adapted to piloting a light.

[EPJ]

Im a little sad to not see the adder listed, is one of my all time fav light mechs. I would like to recommend this build for one.
Mech build: AX2D<8Z0pN0UQ7|iB|SR|URqN0SQ7|SR|iB|iRrH0[I7|gB|SRs50ME7|iBtI0FE7uI0GE7v>0HE7w202020
Mech skills: a050307cc01ce58b1b1efefffff6210183073000000000070a5db90820103
Also, this is a rather cool thing you did here, making use of the Jarl's list. I would say as someone that tends to mostly play lights. that they can be extremely scary when in the right hands. But even a good pilot can go down easy if they get the legs. always go for the legs on lights.

[LordNothing]

EPJ, on 01 April 2022 - 05:41 PM, said:

Im a little sad to not see the adder listed, is one of my all time fav light mechs. I would like to recommend this build for one.
Mech build: AX2D<8Z0pN0UQ7|iB|SR|URqN0SQ7|SR|iB|iRrH0[I7|gB|SRs50ME7|iBtI0FE7uI0GE7v>0HE7w202020
Mech skills: a050307cc01ce58b1b1efefffff6210183073000000000070a5db90820103
Also, this is a rather cool thing you did here, making use of the Jarl's list. I would say as someone that tends to mostly play lights. that they can be extremely scary when in the right hands. But even a good pilot can go down easy if they get the legs. always go for the legs on lights.

i like running a cinder with a uac10 in the side torso and some heavy medium lasers. ive face tanked assaults in that thing and won.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 April 2022 - 08:42 PM.

[EPJ]

LordNothing, on 01 April 2022 - 08:41 PM, said:

i like running a cinder with a uac10 in the side torso and some heavy medium lasers. ive face tanked assaults in that thing and won.

Same, its a tanky light mech and i love it. had a game with my friend both of us are running that build I posted and we took down 2 dire wales. we where both hyped and freaking out. also idk if you had a chance to look at the build, but it gets a lot of crazy perks from each omnipod on it. x2 ammo -35 ultra jam chance and a few other perks.

Edited by EPJ, 01 April 2022 - 09:57 PM.

[LordNothing]

EPJ, on 01 April 2022 - 09:50 PM, said:

Same, its a tanky light mech and i love it. had a game with my friend both of us are running that build I posted and we took down 2 dire wales. we where both hyped and freaking out. also idk if you had a chance to look at the build, but it gets a lot of crazy perks from each omnipod on it. x2 ammo -35 ultra jam chance and a few other perks.

im going to have to modernize the loadout.

adr-cn

35% jam chance
30% cooldown
200% uac20 ammo (4 tons equivalent)
20% mg rof (not sure if it applies to heavies. if it doesn't i can use std mgs and add more ammo)
lower arm actuator on the uac20
more useful than a troll raven

Edited by LordNothing, 01 April 2022 - 10:07 PM.

[YueFei]

Weeny Machine, on 01 April 2022 - 02:08 PM, said:

@Dozer: You forgot one thing: in this sniper / laser spam meta most assaults, and most likely those you were cornering, had loadouts for sniping/ERLL spam while your mech for sure was geared for close range (well, most lights have not much choice anyway). Try that against a brawler assault and things go most likely quite differently

It's all part of the balance of the game between different mech weights and roles. It's not the job of a knife-fighting Light to brawl a dedicated Brawler Assault, or any brawler in a heavier weight class. On the other hand, that Brawler Assault is vulnerable to getting kited and out-ranged, so he depends on his own team's support and overwatch to pin enemies in place or at least deny them wider angles to out-flank+out-range the Brawler Assault.

I tend to play a slow Medium brawler so my purpose is to try to close in for close combat against mid-range or long-range enemy mechs that are roughly my speed or slower. Fast-moving mid-range or long-range mechs are a pretty hard counter against me. For example, a Shadowcat would perma-kite me to death, unless teammates can either pin him, cut off his escape vector, or at least put ranged pressure to force him to path in such a way that I might be able to use a pursuit angle that lets me catch up to him. And obviously, I don't intentionally look for fights with other brawlers that are heavier than me (a Brawler Heavy or Brawler Assault will probably rip my face open).

Edited by YueFei, 01 April 2022 - 11:46 PM.

[Curccu]

Weeny Machine, on 01 April 2022 - 02:08 PM, said:

@Dozer: You forgot one thing: in this sniper / laser spam meta most assaults, and most likely those you were cornering, had loadouts for sniping/ERLL spam while your mech for sure was geared for close range (well, most lights have not much choice anyway). Try that against a brawler assault and things go most likely quite differently

PPFLD snipy stuff is still very dangerous to lights... I would think twice going against fresh MAD-4L do I wanna get dead or cripled for rest of the game with 1 connecting shot... is that player good shot or someone who won't most likely hit you... life choices of light pilot

Weeny Machine, on 01 April 2022 - 02:08 PM, said:

The worst thing is, though, when two passive teams face each other and both camp one spot opposite one another and trade shots. Then you can wait for an eternity to engage or try it which is quite risky ZzzZZzzzzZZz

This is on other hand where stuff like inc-3 becomes gold...

Edited by Curccu, 02 April 2022 - 12:02 AM.

[MrMadguy]

D O Z E R, on 01 April 2022 - 12:26 PM, said:

2. One of the main reasons "lights in general" are not OP is that Streak SRMs are absolutely devastating. Of course, streaks suck for pretty much everything else, but if you are willing to play a specific anti-light role then your team's piranha problems are solved. If not for running into streakboats every 4th or 5th match, my performance would have been way better.

I experimented with SSRMs a little bit in order to try to create anti-Light build and realized, that even SSRM12 is completely ineffective even against Lights. Problem is - boating more SSRMs would make such 'Mech too niche. That's why nobody uses them. They're dead weapons.

P.S. And you should understand one thing "average Lights are just little bit worse, than Assaults" is equal to "Lights are OP". Again. This logic of "Balance = just buff 1M CB 'Mech enough to be equal to 20M CB 'Mech" and "Solve lack of popularity problem via adding exceeding power" - is TERRIBLY FAULTY. Such design mistakes - are real reason, why this game dies.

Edited by MrMadguy, 02 April 2022 - 02:03 AM.

[Curccu]

MrMadguy, on 02 April 2022 - 02:01 AM, said:

I experimented with SSRMs a little bit in order to try to create anti-Light build and realized, that even SSRM12 is completely ineffective even against Lights. Problem is - boating more SSRMs would make such 'Mech too niche. That's why nobody uses them. They're dead weapons.

Even in tier1 I see more of SSRM light hunters than I would like to, and yeah if you run into those with light mech it's usually gonna be bad match. But yes totally unviable against anything larger than 40 tons.

MrMadguy, on 02 April 2022 - 02:01 AM, said:

P.S. And you should understand one thing "average Lights are just little bit worse, than Assaults" is equal to "Lights are OP". Again.

Average lights are way worse than average assault mech. Read what you wrote out loud... WTF?

MrMadguy, on 02 April 2022 - 02:01 AM, said:

This logic of "Balance = just buff 1M CB 'Mech enough to be equal to 20M CB 'Mech" and "Solve lack of popularity problem via adding exceeding power" - is TERRIBLY FAULTY. Such design mistakes - are real reason, why this game dies.

Such an epic brainfart.
1 mech = 1 player, your precious expensive mechs shouldn't perform better at all just because they are more expensive.

With that totally insane logic can we also have score multiplier by how many mechs we have in our mechbays and how many useless hundreds of millions CBs we have sitting in our account?

PS. How about you just mumbling this insane talk with ZERO PERCENT LIGHTS PLAYED since Aug '20, you do like D O Z E R and see how green that grass is on other side of heavies and assaults only game play of yours.
Or you can continue to QQ and talk insane stuff about things you think you know everything but in reality don't know anything at all because you have zero experience about those because you do not play lights (or mediums rly).

Edited by Curccu, 02 April 2022 - 03:37 AM.