22 replies to this topic

[Ihlrath]

Has this been changed? It doesn't seem to really make a difference anymore.

[LordNothing]

i figure ambient heat was always a placebo, or at least not very much of a difference from one map to another. some maps have hot spots, but they are not well utilized. i think terra therma is the only one still in rotation with hotspots. its a grossly underutilized feature in map design. if new maps can get hot and cold spots that can be utilized strategically, that would be a big improvement.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 May 2022 - 02:41 PM.

[martian]

Ihlrath, on 02 May 2022 - 02:08 PM, said:

Has this been changed? It doesn't seem to really make a difference anymore.

That's because many MWO maps have the ambient temperature just a few degrees up and below 0 °C, i.e. not enough to have a really significant effect on your 'Mech.

Terra Therma with its high ambient temperature and lava hot spots is a rarely played exception.

Tourmaline Desert is hotter than other maps, but not hot enough. Plus, it lacks those lava hot spots that Terra Therma has.

Almost forgot: There are days when it seems that there is only one map in MWO: Canyon Network with its pleasant 27 °C temperature.

[Meep Meep]

I can certainly tell the difference between a 'hot' map and 'cool' map when running toasty builds but its not a huge difference and skill nodes will help compensate.

[Magnus Santini]

LordNothing, on 02 May 2022 - 02:39 PM, said:

. . . some maps have hot spots, but they are not well utilized. i think terra therma is the only one still in rotation with hotspots. its a grossly underutilized feature in map design. if new maps can get hot and cold spots that can be utilized strategically, that would be a big improvement.

I agree except the map needs to have adequate visual and audible cues to alert you are near or on top of one. Otherwise it could be random minefields if we just want to troll the player.

[LordNothing]

Magnus Santini, on 04 May 2022 - 11:31 AM, said:

I agree except the map needs to have adequate visual and audible cues to alert you are near or on top of one. Otherwise it could be random minefields if we just want to troll the player.

thats a given. lava and fire are pretty good hot cues. something blue might be a good cool cue. grim portico/plexus has those ice patches (at least i think they are ice) as well as the ice on frozen city would be good examples, at least if they were used in that way. or a cool blue mist. a cryovolcano or something might also provide adequate cues. big thing is these have to be placed in strategic locations. a hard to hold location might be a good place to put a cold zone, and a sniper nest might be a good place for a hot one. and it need not limit you to only hot and cold. locations that expand sensor range or block detection could also be used.

[Rosarius]

It hasn't been changed, but heat sink capacity and dissipation has. Remember, the MORE heat sinks you have the LESS the map heat matters!

Here is a table with each map and it's respective heat dissipation modifier. Notice how Rubelite is the hottest map, NOT Terra Therma (excluding lava obviously)

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Rosarius, on 05 May 2022 - 08:12 PM, said:

It hasn't been changed, but heat sink capacity and dissipation has. Remember, the MORE heat sinks you have the LESS the map heat matters!

Here is a table with each map and it's respective heat dissipation modifier. Notice how Rubelite is the hottest map, NOT Terra Therma (excluding lava obviously)

That table doesn't seem right to me. There's one with different values on the wiki: https://wiki.mwomerc...ap_Environments

It says that rubellite is at 0.11, not 0.3

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 05 May 2022 - 09:16 PM.

[Lord Sevenous]

Well the Wiki is always old news (the heat table info is from jul 2019)

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Lord Sevenous, on 05 May 2022 - 11:28 PM, said:

Well the Wiki is always old news (the heat table info is from jul 2019)

And there have been no changes to the environment heat documented since then, so I'm inclined to believe this. We also don't know the source of Rosarius' table, which also still mentions the "caldera" on Caustic Valley, which I believe is not existing any longer.

Edited by Aidan Crenshaw, 05 May 2022 - 11:52 PM.

[Lord Sevenous]

Well MechDB uses the latest info just look there:

https://mwo.nav-alpha.com/wiki/heat

This page was last updated on 22. Apr. 2022

Of course you are right that his Info is sketchy at best but yours is so old that it doesn`t even factor in the Map changes like HPG reborn or Caustic Valley reborn...

Edited by Lord Sevenous, 06 May 2022 - 02:01 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

I see where you are coming from and have posted this question in K2Bs discord. We'll see. I can only imagine this is a C+P error since the listed ambient temperature for rubellite is 59°C vs terra with 98°C. I fail to understand how almost twice the temperature would result in half the impact on cooling capacity.

[Rosarius]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 06 May 2022 - 02:17 AM, said:

I see where you are coming from and have posted this question in K2Bs discord. We'll see. I can only imagine this is a C+P error since the listed ambient temperature for rubellite is 59°C vs terra with 98°C. I fail to understand how almost twice the temperature would result in half the impact on cooling capacity.

Because the temperature number used in game is fluff and nothing else

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Rosarius, on 06 May 2022 - 03:14 AM, said:

Because the temperature number used in game is fluff and nothing else

It sure is, there's still some correlation apllied between fluff temperature and multiplier, don't you agree? Since we have you here, where does your table and the 0.3 value for Rubellite Oasis come from?

[Hobbles v]

Ages ago map heat mattered more. It effected both heat generation and cooling rate.
The modern iteration only effects cooling rate.

Fudging numbers for an example:
Old way:
Heat neutral map like canyon Alpha strike for 50 heat and take 10 seconds to fully cool off
Hot map like terra therma that same alpha is like 54 heat and took 13 seconds

New way:
That 50 heat alpha is 50 everywhere. But time to cool varies map.

[Lord Sevenous]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 06 May 2022 - 03:53 AM, said:

It sure is, there's still some correlation apllied between fluff temperature and multiplier, don't you agree?

No there sadly isn`t...
(as it is written on MechDB wich uses the XML documents of the game to mine it`s data)

Aidan Crenshaw, on 06 May 2022 - 02:17 AM, said:

I fail to understand how almost twice the temperature would result in half the impact on cooling capacity.

Fluffy explaining:
Something in the atmosphere interacts badly with your Heatsinks on Rubelite....

Most likely explanation:
It is easier to change the XML multiplier than the tool tip shown with the Map

Edited by Lord Sevenous, 06 May 2022 - 08:13 AM.

[Meep Meep]

Lord Sevenous, on 06 May 2022 - 08:05 AM, said:

Most likely explanation:
It is easier to change the XML multiplier than the tool tip shown with the Map

Or they just plain forgot or didn't care to change the map screen values. They should be a simple text field using a numerical font and not an actual static art asset so its just another xml change at its core.

[Rosarius]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 06 May 2022 - 03:53 AM, said:

It sure is, there's still some correlation apllied between fluff temperature and multiplier, don't you agree? Since we have you here, where does your table and the 0.3 value for Rubellite Oasis come from?

No idea, it's not my table. It's one that I stole from a JGx player that has an intricate knowledge of the game. Perhaps it comes from the game files? Or calculated through brute force trial and error? Either way, I trust it more than the average punters "me no like Terra Therma. Map too hot, mech overheat too much"

Edited by Rosarius, 06 May 2022 - 11:33 PM.

[foamyesque]

I don't buy that Rubellite is hotter than Terra Therma, and I *like* playing on Terra Therma. I'd need to see exactly where that number came from before I trust it not to be someone fatfingering a C&P or something.

[LordNothing]

Meep Meep, on 06 May 2022 - 10:38 PM, said:

Or they just plain forgot or didn't care to change the map screen values. They should be a simple text field using a numerical font and not an actual static art asset so its just another xml change at its core.

this is why you never flatten your layers. then you can change the text overlay without a major reworking of the art asset. now you could make the text overlay procedural, that would make sense. but artists are cheaper than programmers.

another place where quasi-procedural things should have been used is mech weapon models. instead of baking every possible weapon configuration into the mech, you create a system of adaptive geometry for every mech that can adjust to the loadout. the weapon models themselves can be placed in the adaptive geometry procedurally. such a system could have saved hundreds of man hours considering the civil war update alone and turned armament into another product line. sometimes being cheap in the short term has long term consequences. its too late for that system now.

Edited by LordNothing, 07 May 2022 - 11:27 AM.