33 replies to this topic

[Ekson Valdez]

This thread has been moved to Medium Mech Builds

[Der Geisterbaer]

Heavy Money, on 12 May 2022 - 12:00 PM, said:

Magrowl is correct.

I simply cannot agree with that. Magrowl and you do have some point when stating that MWO has certain uncommon traits but the conclusions you both are trying to draw are not "logical" in the sense that they ultimately don't quite add up (more on that further down) and what people try to provide as evidence doesn't truly support the respective claims either.

Heavy Money, on 12 May 2022 - 12:00 PM, said:

There's several issues going on with MWO that are not like other games. It is a special case.
[..]

What you're painting there is a picture that revolves around stipulations on two things

• a broader (non-standard) skill gap between average and top tier players
  
• the inability / unwillingness of lesser skilled players "to learn"

I will gladly agree that both aspects play a certain role in certain outcomes of this game but I do not agree that these actually prove the alleged "overpoweredness" of certain mechs ... neither in absolute nor in relative terms and I'll try to show you why:

Heavy Money, on 12 May 2022 - 12:00 PM, said:

So, with all that in mind, yes it is entirely possible that the playerbase overall is "too stupid" to flock to the "obviously overpowered" mechs. Because those mechs may not be overpowered without high enough skill and knowledge. But once you pass a certain point, they can suddenly become very powerful. Its not necessarily a linear increase in performance as skill increases.

Let's say that a player has to indeed surpass a certain "skill threshold" to actually make use of these mechs' "overpowered" potential and all players below that threshold simply can't make them work for themselves in an "overpowered" manner. This instantly raises two questions:

• Why don't we see a disproportionate use of these mechs among the top tier players ( both general QP and competitive environments) themselves? Those players do have the necessary skills and knowledge to operate those allegedly "overpowered" mechs but within their tiers (at least to my knowledge) it's still heavies and assaults that get used far more often. In competitive environments Lights and Mediums are also more of a filler next to heavies and assault and the chosen Lights and Mediums don't seem to come from the pool of those allegedly "overpowered" mechs / builds either.
  
• If your scenario is about the skilled player "deleting" lesser skilled players with those allegedly "overpowered" mechs where's the look at the same skilled players also (and even more so) "deleting" those lesser skilled players when driving their obviously more favoured heavies and assaults?

Heavy Money, on 12 May 2022 - 12:00 PM, said:

So yeah that was long winded, but yes things can be overpowered in relative terms within a tier.

So can you tell me within which particular tier the mechs in question are "overpowered" and how the pilots in these tiers fit your bill of "skilled" / "knowlegable" player?

Heavy Money, on 12 May 2022 - 12:00 PM, said:

And things can be overpowered but only in the hands of people that cross a certain breakpoint of skill/knowledge (Gauss+ERLL DWF.)

So your stipulation now becomes that once players reach a certain skill level their mech usage becomes "overpowered". Well if that's the case wouldn't that make all skillfully used mechs "overpowered" and why don't we see disproportionate numbers of these mechs being used by those skilled players either?
[edit]
Or - given the actual usage numbers on assaults - wouldn't that indicate that the skilled players are already using the actually "overpowered" mechs ?
[/edit]

Please don't try to sell me the story of "these players not wanting to exploit the lameness of these mechs and therefore challenging themselves 'more' with less 'overpowered' mechs".

TL;DR: You've provided some hypotheticals that don't necessarily line up with available statistics and experiences where certain mechs could be viewed as "overpowered" between players in relative terms with those players already being set apart by a large skill gap. => As such I'm still neither convinced that the mechs in question are indeed "overpowered" nor can I agree that the gameplay differences in MWO vs. other games do support the "special case pleading"

Anyhow, I guess I'll let it rest here, because moderation has decided to move the thread to a different forum section where this type of discussion would be misplaced.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 13 May 2022 - 05:14 AM.

[LordNothing]

dont know why anyone would not like this mech. its sitting at the top of my mech rankings spreadsheet. 2.84 brownie points. my beloved ultraviolet only gets 1.48 brownies.

Edited by LordNothing, 13 May 2022 - 02:13 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

machine guns are ridiculous, no heat cap and obscene damage and ammo limits.

[The6thMessenger]

Corvus Antaka, on 13 May 2022 - 05:19 AM, said:

machine guns are ridiculous, no heat cap and obscene damage and ammo limits.

Honestly, the main deterrence is really the range, and low hardpoint. It's not worth putting 2 to 3, and have 1 ton worth of ammo backing it. It's always the hardpoint-inflated that is able to make use of it.

I wish they just made it like an MG-array, so we can make use of hardpoint, but it's powerful as much as 3 to 4 mgs worth.

[Corvus Antaka]

The6thMessenger, on 13 May 2022 - 05:34 AM, said:

Honestly, the main deterrence is really the range, and low hardpoint. It's not worth putting 2 to 3, and have 1 ton worth of ammo backing it. It's always the hardpoint-inflated that is able to make use of it.

I wish they just made it like an MG-array, so we can make use of hardpoint, but it's powerful as much as 3 to 4 mgs worth.

yeah the mechs with tons of hardpoints are part of the issue here.

[Weeny Machine]

KaptinOrk, on 12 May 2022 - 09:14 AM, said:

I bet that any 'mech piloted by a high skill player would be similarly lethal in it's preferred range bracket. Also consider that any short range, extreme DPS build (such as a SLas+MG boat) will absolutely mop the floor with a traditional long range build if the long range pilot allows the short range pilot to get up close, that's just PvP balance.

And that's why DATA depicts them as OP - because they can spoil the fun of sitting in the back pushing those ERLL buttons.

[Heavy Money]

Der Geisterbaer, on 13 May 2022 - 01:20 AM, said:

I simply cannot agree with that. Magrowl and you do have some point when stating that MWO has certain uncommon traits but the conclusions you both are trying to draw are not "logical" in the sense that they ultimately don't quite add up (more on that further down) and what people try to provide as evidence doesn't truly support the respective claims either.

Oh, I wasn't making any claim that a certain mech is overpowered or not. My claim was only that the power of mechs can vary greatly at different skill levels. I was agreeing with Magrowl here:

Quote

Based on the average game knowledge of the player base I’d say there’s 0 reason to base things on how much you see them in QP.

This isn't a claim that any specific thing is or isn't overpowered.

I'm not sure if there are mechs that are really "overpowered" in the hands of high vs low tier players. But there's certainly tons of examples of mechs/loadouts that are good in the hands of skilled players relative to other mechs piloted by skilled players, but that are not (relatively) good in the hands of low skilled players. And of mechs/loadouts that are relatively good in low tiers when used by low tier players, but that don't hold up later.

That said, while we do not see high tier players all running around in the same couple of mechs, we do certainly see them tending towards certain mechs and loadouts over others. "Overpowered" is a relative term though. I don't think anything right now is overpowered the way the ATM Vapor eagle was before cauldron changes. But we did see the Mist Lynx catch a nerf recently. I think you could claim it was "overpowered" before that, if "overpowered" means "better than it should be" or "significantly stronger than similar mechs to the point of almost always being chosen".

But if "overpowered" means "so good that people run only this" then nothing is overpowered right now.

[Blood Rose]

D A T A, on 12 May 2022 - 06:32 AM, said:

[irrelevant]

Threadly reminder that DATA is not only incredibly skilled, but also cherrypicks his videos to push the narrative he is after (note how often his 'test' videos put the mech DATA wants nerfed in the best position and circumstances whilst the opposition is never allowed to be an effective counter)

[ambosen]

It's real interesting isn't it. The thread starts with someone clearly being underwhelmed by the viper variant (like just about every crit hammer oriented mech it's a niche roll of the dice to some degree option with relatively low armor, so this is frankly the most common reaction I'd expect) and almost immediately someone drops in arguing it needs to be nerfed because it's "to powerful."

This sort of stuff is *exactly* why I stopped playing the game for several years now. I'm just sick of stuff constantly getting patched, and unpatched, nerfed or buffed, based entirely on subjective or preference based arguments. It's like I finally get used to a mech, figure out a config for it that works for how I like to play a mech of that type, only to have that repeatedly undone usually just to appease someone who's a helluva lot less patient then I am, and has never even played said mech, or is super weirdly emotionally invested in changing it.

When the big machine gun and balllistics buffs happened to a lot ofl ights, mediums, and some heavies awhile ago, I stopped playing specific mechs for no otherr reason then they stopped feeling like the mechs I was used to, enjoyed, knew what to expect out of them.

That's what's really killing this game. Obsessive tinkering, oft times with stuff that's just fine as is.

[Der Geisterbaer]

~damn too hard to resist~

Heavy Money, on 13 May 2022 - 04:54 PM, said:

Oh, I wasn't making any claim that a certain mech is overpowered or not.

And I didn't say you had.

Heavy Money, on 13 May 2022 - 04:54 PM, said:

My claim was only that the power of mechs can vary greatly at different skill levels.

Which prompted me to ask you for more details on that ... with an underlying interest of hearing how and where the mechs in question would come up with regards to which skill and tier levels.

Heavy Money, on 13 May 2022 - 04:54 PM, said:

I was agreeing with Magrowl here:

Quote

Based on the average game knowledge of the player base I’d say there’s 0 reason to base things on how much you see them in QP.

This isn't a claim that any specific thing is or isn't overpowered.

And this particular claim would actually have to be proven. And I'm personally not agreeing that those differences you tried to point out actually create such a different situation that the most basic player behaviours - like "flocking to the 'overpowered' / 'flavour of the month' element - that are witnessed in other games (btw. not just FPS shooters that you predominantly used in your own comparison) suddenly no longer apply.

Heavy Money, on 13 May 2022 - 04:54 PM, said:

"Overpowered" is a relative term though.

Well, everything that tries to describe a non-quantified trait is ultimately a "relative term" but the usual connotation of "overpowered" - at least in my experience - would indicate that something "overpowered" exceeds its (non-) peers by far and not just by a noteworthy margin.

Heavy Money, on 13 May 2022 - 04:54 PM, said:

I don't think anything right now is overpowered the way the ATM Vapor eagle was before cauldron changes. But we did see the Mist Lynx catch a nerf recently.

Indeed we did ... and as a "mere player" I still wonder if that was truly necessary because somehow all the data I have access to doesn't really demonstrate that the removal of the RoF quirk on 6 HMG setups was necessary for "actual imbalance" but only on a numerical level it looked "potentially imbalanced" because it enabled the 6 HMG to get to an effective MG count of 6 x 1.5 x 1.15 = 10.35 with a higher count of armor point where the 8 HMG "only" get's an effective MG count of 8 x 1.5 = 12 with less armor. Someone would have to show me really good numbers on that "imbalance" where the 6 HMG build was (almost) always being chosen over the 8 HMG build and that build itself then being played at comparatively high numbers when compared with other Light mechs.

Heavy Money, on 13 May 2022 - 04:54 PM, said:

I think you could claim it was "overpowered" before that, if "overpowered" means "better than it should be"

Then such a claim would have to be proven by numbers. Interestingly enough part of those numbers would then ...

Heavy Money, on 13 May 2022 - 04:54 PM, said:

or "significantly stronger than similar mechs to the point of almost always being chosen".

... have to show that usage numbers of that mech actually went "through the roof"... which brings us back to the observable numbers in the various game modes.

~This time I will definitely let it rest~

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 14 May 2022 - 10:00 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Blood Rose, on 13 May 2022 - 06:17 PM, said:

Threadly reminder that DATA is not only incredibly skilled, but also cherrypicks his videos to push the narrative he is after (note how often his 'test' videos put the mech DATA wants nerfed in the best position and circumstances whilst the opposition is never allowed to be an effective counter)

Just that. And it is so painfully obvious on top of that. The problem is: if you want gamers in a council like the Cauldron, they shouldn't have agendas of their own - sure, I mean, let's be honest, everyone has a favourite mech class or mech. However, you should be able to put that aside and realize that many gamestyles should be viable to have fun. Promoting the long-range whack-a-mole all the time is just counter-productive

I am sorry, but a Viper F is an ok mech but...not the walking doom. Especially because:
1. the mech's podspace is rather limited
2. the weapons are mostly in the exposed arms
3. the 3rd energy hardpoint takes just 1 slot...that means you can field an ERML but no HML

Edited by Weeny Machine, 14 May 2022 - 06:07 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Weeny Machine, on 14 May 2022 - 05:41 AM, said:

Just that. And it is so painfully obvious on top of that. The problem is: if you want gamers in a council like the Cauldron, they shouldn't have agendas of their own - sure, I mean, let's be honest, everyone has a favourite mech class or mech. However, you should be able to put that aside and realize that many gamestyles should be viable to have fun. Promoting the long-range whack-a-mole all the time is just counter-productive

Yeah well, unfortunately that's what we got. PGI's commitment is to the playerbase that gives them money and it is in their interest to keep people playing and get new people into playing; but whoever is at the top calling the shots, their commitment seems to be only to themselves, their groups, to what they would like to see. At the end of the day, it's what they find fun.

I'm sure that the cauldron got a lot of things right, but at the back of my mind, there's always that concern that the ones calling the shots, those of high skills, the celebrities, are divas, has grown entitled, with heads a bit high up their ***. So what can you do?

But I also doubt actors as honest people for their profession is in lying, so maybe that's just me.

[kalashnikity]

The6thMessenger, on 14 May 2022 - 06:14 AM, said:

Yeah well, unfortunately that's what we got. PGI's commitment is to the playerbase that gives them money and it is in their interest to keep people playing and get new people into playing; but whoever is at the top calling the shots, their commitment seems to be only to themselves, their groups, to what they would like to see. At the end of the day, it's what they find fun.

I'm sure that the cauldron got a lot of things right, but at the back of my mind, there's always that concern that the ones calling the shots, those of high skills, the celebrities, are divas, has grown entitled, with heads a bit high up their ***. So what can you do?

But I also doubt actors as honest people for their profession is in lying, so maybe that's just me.

So.. we should turn it back over to PGI?