59 replies to this topic

[R Valentine]

DPS is only good in prolonged engagements, but prolonging any confrontation is almost universally bad unless it's a 1v1. Staying out in the open to continue firing means other enemies can shoot you even if the guy you're focusing on can't due to heat. The only way to make DPS good is to lower the number of mechs in any given area, which means less mechs on the map in general or give people a reason to spread out across the map. Unfortunately, MWO players near universally hate objectives, which is why they always vote for skirmish, assault, or domination. "I just want to shoot mechs!" is fine, you just have to live with the consequences of your actions, which is that high alpha, long range mechs can dig in and never move and there is nothing you can do about it.

[Mahpsy]

VeeOt Dragon, on 16 May 2022 - 03:04 AM, said:

you know i always say **** meta and just have fun. as for bracket builds and mixed weapons they can work and work well though try to stick to two such as LRMs with some MLs (or mrm/srm if you are running one of the rare mechs with only missile hardpoints.). hell MRMs pair nicely with AC/10s and with some lasers as backup. i never use a build that is purely ammo dependent. even my Catapult has a pair of MLs for backup.

now it is always advisable that your two weapon types have some overlap in effective range such as say the LRM and ML example (ER MLs are better but have more heat and longer cycle time.). 3 weapon types can be managed in the right mix (like my Stalker-3FB that runs 2 ER-LLs, 2 MLs, and 2 LRM-15.) but they must have overlap. take my Stalker build i use the LLs when i have direct sight and am waiting for a lock or the mech is outside my targeting range due to radar dep and ECM. when things get closer and a bit more dicey for an LRM mech i cycle in the MLs for a bit of add punch. oh i could strip the MLs out lower the engine and run larger missile launchers or switch to say ER-MLs in all energy slots (i think that Stalker has 6 but not sure off hand) and again larger launchers but i like it as it is. for me its more fun as is while still effective. i used to run that mech with MRM-30s and ER-LLs but switch to LRM when the mech got some quirk love.

honestly in a match i don't care what my teammates' builds are as long as they are doing decent (or trying at least). hell i love seeing odd builds on the field. it adds spice to the boredom of same 3 builds on the same 4 mechs over and over again. i think if more people just made fun builds instead of caring about the damn meta the game would a Lot more interesting. (hell i have an assault that runs RAC/5s paired with AC/2s and ML backup that does really well. i have hand tremors so i rarely use the AC/2s at their max effective range but i do sometimes. its a fun build not a meta one)

so yeah just have fun, though i recommend not having any more than than 4 fire groups, 3 is better (i often push for 2 main groups and then maybe a 3rd that is one of those set to chain fire for when things get toasty but i can't withdraw to cool right away) for an example using the Stalker mentioned above the LLS are on 1, the MLs on 2 and the LRM on 4 (group 4 is easier to press on my mouse than 3 as both are side buttons) the big trouble is range management and having fewer things you have to concentrate on.

above all its a game so have fun

as much as i love the lore and the lore builds (in lore many mechs have rear facing weapons or the ability to flip their arms 180 to shoot behind them. PGI moved the dedicated rear hardpoints to front facing and eliminated the arm flip when making their version for ease of play and programing. the only mech in the game that can shoot behind itself is the Urbie but that is because they kept the full 360 torso rotation the mech had in Lore.) sadly many just don't work well in the FPS environment of MWO.

Honestly a lot of it comes down to how MW:O was made, LRM's don't even fill their rolls as a long range weapon because of the ECM/Radar dep. Information warfare is still non-existent out side of " Enemy Spotted". Id even argue that some lasers and other weapons need steeper damage fall off past their max damage range to promote more use out of say the LBX 2/ac2/UAC2-5's. Auto cannons(mostly 5's &10's tbh) should have a random spread at say 50-75% inside of their optimal damage to try and get way from pin point mixed builds(e.x. LPL/AC10 ).

We just need to fix the problem instead of the symptoms.

For example everyone always tried to run Gauss PPC. Then the changes came in. Only difference now is it's now Gauss ER LL. More or less the same thing but with more face time required, so this really changed nothing in the grand scheme of things.

All I'm really trying to say is that if weapons where changed and potentially even had more mechanics introduced, bracket builds would likely become more popular. I'm not saying that a Laser Vom shouldn't exist(because I love my Nova Prime with 8 er mediums targeting comp) but still being able to deal damage at 800m with a 1 ton weapon is a bit unnecessary for example. But brawlers and skirmishers would likely also see an uptick which I know people miss at the moment and will choose small maps just to play them (please stop picking Solaris, I know you want to brawl but that map is baaad xD).

[Mahpsy]

Kiran Yagami, on 16 May 2022 - 12:43 PM, said:

DPS is only good in prolonged engagements, but prolonging any confrontation is almost universally bad unless it's a 1v1. Staying out in the open to continue firing means other enemies can shoot you even if the guy you're focusing on can't due to heat. The only way to make DPS good is to lower the number of mechs in any given area, which means less mechs on the map in general or give people a reason to spread out across the map. Unfortunately, MWO players near universally hate objectives, which is why they always vote for skirmish, assault, or domination. "I just want to shoot mechs!" is fine, you just have to live with the consequences of your actions, which is that high alpha, long range mechs can dig in and never move and there is nothing you can do about it.

It's more that the objectives of the game just don't work because in the end they are just skirmish with extra steps. Now if we say had a conquest mode, with players able to drop in other mechs they own or even just respawn in the same mech and removing the "if you kill them all you win" It definitely would spice things up a bit.

[feeWAIVER]

Mahpsy, on 16 May 2022 - 01:18 PM, said:

It's more that the objectives of the game just don't work because in the end they are just skirmish with extra steps. Now if we say had a conquest mode, with players able to drop in other mechs they own or even just respawn in the same mech and removing the "if you kill them all you win" It definitely would spice things up a bit.

You can have that in faction play, and yes, it's better than quickplay.

[Mahpsy]

feeWAIVER, on 16 May 2022 - 04:25 PM, said:

You can have that in faction play, and yes, it's better than quickplay.

I'm aware it's in FP. I was implying that PGI could take elements from FP and incorporate it into QP to actually give alternate game modes something more than the 95% of the game is still skirmish with extra steps.

The thing with FP is it's very meta oriented. Even more so than Quick play, every single time I've played it the entire game is just sniper V sniper with the occasional suicide brawler charges. Even then FP has a drop limit, so once you run out of mechs you're out.

[Nightbird]

when the match maker puts bad players with bad players...

[kalashnikity]

Direwhale with 4xlrm20, 4xspl, 1xlbx-10, tag, narc.

Does pretty good in most games.

Those spl are a real surprise.

[The6thMessenger]

Actually, thinking about it, I think it would also work to just halve the armor values of all mechs. See, it was doubled to compensate for the pin-point nature of the game, as a result it became the game of alphas to quickly strip off armor.

If we halve it back, yeah people die faster, but it is also overkill that you don't exactly have to do it. That means the weapons that would typically be just glancing blows are comparatively heavier. This means that weapons are now stronger individually.

Pair that with something like doubled cooldown, then the way to maximize damage is to maximize the amount of weapons.

[Curccu]

kalashnikity, on 16 May 2022 - 07:16 PM, said:

Direwhale with 4xlrm20, 4xspl, 1xlbx-10, tag, narc.
Does pretty good in most games.
Those spl are a real surprise.

That is a lurm boat with backup weapons, I don't really think that build counts as bracket build... 30 tons of your weapons can do dmg at 1000 meters and 4 tons just 300 meters...

With a bit of same spirit as your build, This is something I consider bracket build. And yes still might work because LOADS of weapons that somewhat overlap.

The6thMessenger, on 16 May 2022 - 11:56 PM, said:

Actually, thinking about it, I think it would also work to just halve the armor values of all mechs.

1st thing that came into my mind after "Nothing" was having very small number or hitpoints. Not sure if halving would be enough.
And even in those situations high alpha builds would wreck so much harder... Supernova-1 with 6xERLL or HGN-IIC-A with 4xERPPC vs OPs build with quarter of health we got now which one would be better at any range?

[Scout Derek]

I don't think you'll be ever be able to make this happen unless you completely restrict customization entirely, which in turn is half of this game in a nutshell.

Even though MW5 butchered it, there are still mechs that still fits the meta of what kills the fastest, etc etc, hell, in one of the DLCs they put in a hero KGC stock with Quad UAC/5 and LRM15s(?) and it just mega farms everything, quite stupid honestly.

[The6thMessenger]

Scout Derek, on 17 May 2022 - 03:26 AM, said:

I don't think you'll be ever be able to make this happen unless you completely restrict customization entirely, which in turn is half of this game in a nutshell.

Even though MW5 butchered it, there are still mechs that still fits the meta of what kills the fastest, etc etc, hell, in one of the DLCs they put in a hero KGC stock with Quad UAC/5 and LRM15s(?) and it just mega farms everything, quite stupid honestly.

Lets face it, they don't care about mech balance there. Mods handles everything.

[Scout Derek]

The6thMessenger, on 17 May 2022 - 03:42 AM, said:

Lets face it, they don't care about mech balance there. Mods handles everything.

Naturally when they half bake the product to begin with. Nothing more than a sandbox with half baked campaign implementation with logic that makes you furrow your brow with stress and concern for how this was passable.

[Mahpsy]

Scout Derek, on 17 May 2022 - 03:26 AM, said:

I don't think you'll be ever be able to make this happen unless you completely restrict customization entirely, which in turn is half of this game in a nutshell.

You don't have to restrict customization, that's just bad overall *cough* GHOST HEAT *cough*, over the years people seem to be at the consensus that pinpoint at any range is the main issue with just about any weapon that isn't LB or LRM/MRM. But this is just something in general that's hard to balance because people WILL go back to say 4 gauss or 4 PPC one click kill builds( Maybe revert the PPC velocity severely or adding longer burn times for all ER LL for example so the player being shot at can reasonably avoid getting one clicked by any 1 weapon system stacking). .TBH I don't know why PGI cant simply add the spread mechanic from LB's to normal AC's past a particular range instead of the almost irrelevant weapon arc that is more or less non-existent from quirks/skill tree velocity changes.

Edited by Mahpsy, 17 May 2022 - 07:20 AM.

[KaptinOrk]

Kiran Yagami, on 16 May 2022 - 12:43 PM, said:

DPS is only good in prolonged engagements, but prolonging any confrontation is almost universally bad unless it's a 1v1. Staying out in the open to continue firing means other enemies can shoot you even if the guy you're focusing on can't due to heat. The only way to make DPS good is to lower the number of mechs in any given area, which means less mechs on the map in general or give people a reason to spread out across the map. Unfortunately, MWO players near universally hate objectives, which is why they always vote for skirmish, assault, or domination. "I just want to shoot mechs!" is fine, you just have to live with the consequences of your actions, which is that high alpha, long range mechs can dig in and never move and there is nothing you can do about it.

This is one of the reasons I loved 8v8, it allowed more build variety since you didn't get immediately vaporized the second you exposed.

[Weeny Machine]

The6thMessenger, on 16 May 2022 - 11:56 PM, said:

Actually, thinking about it, I think it would also work to just halve the armor values of all mechs. See, it was doubled to compensate for the pin-point nature of the game, as a result it became the game of alphas to quickly strip off armor.

If we halve it back, yeah people die faster, but it is also overkill that you don't exactly have to do it. That means the weapons that would typically be just glancing blows are comparatively heavier. This means that weapons are now stronger individually.

Pair that with something like doubled cooldown, then the way to maximize damage is to maximize the amount of weapons.

Then a meta Hellbringer sitting in ECM somewhere which you oversaw will one-shot you. Then we can actually go and play a random online shooter

[YueFei]

You'd have to change up the numbers so that DPS typically catches up with and outpaces alpha-strike-oriented builds.

A simple thought experiment shows this should be possible. Whether or not it'd be desirable is another story.

For example, as a thought experiment, if:

• Mechs had significantly more armor (e.g., triple what we have now).
  
• Mechs had much more accel/decel, so you can spread incoming packets of fire whilst still staring at your opponents.
  
• DPS-oriented weapons were granted even higher DPS.
  
• Alpha-strike oriented weapons were given increased heat and/or longer cooldowns.

Then, alpha-strike-oriented mech builds would pretty much always run out of steam (overheat) before they could put mechs into the ground. They wouldn't be able to kill enemies before they got pushed on by DPS-oriented mechs. The DPS-oriented mechs could spread incoming fire just by stutter-stepping whilst staring down and hosing down enemies with fire.

Would this be good for the game? I doubt it. It'd be "fun" at first but ultimately feel very shallow and stale.

[Weeny Machine]

YueFei, on 17 May 2022 - 09:06 AM, said:

You'd have to change up the numbers so that DPS typically catches up with and outpaces alpha-strike-oriented builds.

A simple thought experiment shows this should be possible. Whether or not it'd be desirable is another story.

For example, as a thought experiment, if:

• Mechs had significantly more armor (e.g., triple what we have now).
  
• Mechs had much more accel/decel, so you can spread incoming packets of fire whilst still staring at your opponents.
  
• DPS-oriented weapons were granted even higher DPS.
  
• Alpha-strike oriented weapons were given increased heat and/or longer cooldowns.

Then, alpha-strike-oriented mech builds would pretty much always run out of steam (overheat) before they could put mechs into the ground. They wouldn't be able to kill enemies before they got pushed on by DPS-oriented mechs. The DPS-oriented mechs could spread incoming fire just by stutter-stepping whilst staring down and hosing down enemies with fire.


Would this be good for the game? I doubt it. It'd be "fun" at first but ultimately feel very shallow and stale.

Even the overheat problem of alpha strikers got a buffer: cool shots.

[YueFei]

Weeny Machine, on 17 May 2022 - 09:25 AM, said:

Even the overheat problem of alpha strikers got a buffer: cool shots.

That doesn't change anything in my thought experiment. If need be, simply increase armor+structure until the buffer provided by heatcap/coolshots is still insufficient.

Imagine 20x armor+structure (instead of just 2x). Max DPS wouldn't matter much because you'd heat cap with enemies still at 95+% health, and then you'd be down to just sustained DPS only.

Essentially you would always be able to just face-rush people and never worry about their initial alpha strikes because it'd do piddling damage to you. Then you'd eventually close in on them and leverage your superior sustained DPS to truck them. Alpha-strike-oriented builds would be totally invalidated.

However, this would pretty much also dumb the game down to just face-rushing DPS builds stutter-stepping while hosing each other with fire.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

YueFei, on 17 May 2022 - 10:26 AM, said:

That doesn't change anything in my thought experiment. If need be, simply increase armor+structure until the buffer provided by heatcap/coolshots is still insufficient.

Imagine 20x armor+structure (instead of just 2x). Max DPS wouldn't matter much because you'd heat cap with enemies still at 95+% health, and then you'd be down to just sustained DPS only.

Essentially you would always be able to just face-rush people and never worry about their initial alpha strikes because it'd do piddling damage to you. Then you'd eventually close in on them and leverage your superior sustained DPS to truck them. Alpha-strike-oriented builds would be totally invalidated.

However, this would pretty much also dumb the game down to just face-rushing DPS builds stutter-stepping while hosing each other with fire.

not saying I disagree with the idea, but look at the other thing you can do (now and then):
you alpha, you go to cover and wait to cool down.
works now, will work then.

and before you go to the "yes, but what if they're pushing you" thing.. you're right, but: QP is either a potatoe-rotatoe, or a hide-fest. both at the worst of times.
whenever there's hiding and timid players involved, high-alpha is good. the last 5? matches I tried 2 days ago where all hide-fests.

again: not disagreeing, playing devil's advocate here.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 17 May 2022 - 01:54 PM.

[YueFei]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 17 May 2022 - 01:54 PM, said:

not saying I disagree with the idea, but look at the other thing you can do (now and then):
you alpha, you go to cover and wait to cool down.
works now, will work then.

and before you go to the "yes, but what if they're pushing you" thing.. you're right, but: QP is either a potatoe-rotatoe, or a hide-fest. both at the worst of times.
whenever there's hiding and timid players involved, high-alpha is good. the last 5? matches I tried 2 days ago where all hide-fests.

again: not disagreeing, playing devil's advocate here.

Yeah, but in theory player behavior is also influenced by the results they are getting (or at least, it should be ). Let's imagine that 20x armor+structure environment again. So, in that kind of environment, let's say a player takes a high alpha build, blast and hide, rinse and repeat. And they find that after they've fired their 10th volley into the enemy and the enemy shrugs it off like it's nothing and is now in their faces blasting them apart with high DPS weapons. This happens game after game. After awhile, they'll probably clue in on the fact that their mech build sucks in the current game environment, and switch to a high DPS build.

Now certainly it's possible they refuse to adapt and keep using the high alpha build, and keep getting run over by high DPS mechs. But I guess that's not much different from some players right now that take awful builds (not just sub-optimal but something truly awful) and just refuse to adapt and build something that's at least decently effective.

What I'm trying to get at is that it's certainly possible to tilt the balance totally in favor of DPS and away from big-alpha. Hence the thought experiment with the ridiculous example of 20x armor+structure (for sake of argument imagine ammo counts also increase to match).

Now obviously we don't want to go to such extremes as 20x armor+structure. But, it should be possible to find a sweet mid-point where big-alpha and DPS are both equally viable. The high-DPS guys would have ways to try to leverage their advantages, but they wouldn't be able to just ignore the incoming fire from big-alpha guys while moving in and "cutting off the ring". Both kinds of play styles would work and have counterplay options against each other.

Edited by YueFei, 17 May 2022 - 02:53 PM.