44 replies to this topic

[Reverend Flashback]

The only type that does not are Mrms. Those are fine.
But the other ones are so bad compared to basically anything else, it's not funny anymore.

By type:

Srms:

- Crappy range. Watch your volley hit an enemy at 271 meters and go "Poof".

- Terrible velocity. One of the worst in the whole game. Only beaten by other missile weapons. Try hitting any fast mech and cry.

- Play the waiting game for half the match, before you are even able to deal damage. Exciting...

- Awful spread. Try applying damge to a specific location and cry again.

- Affected by ams. How would you feel in any other game if the enemy picked your shotgun bullets out of the air? You would say "shotguns suck" and take an assault rifle instead...

Lrms:

- Feast or famine. In 9 out of 10 games it's famine. Have fun dealing with triple ams kit foxes and corsairs in the middle of the blob all day long. Send 2000 missiles towards your target while having line of sight and go home with 300 dmg. Also have fun with teams that stick together (as they should) and are kitted out with single ams and ecm. You got rendered useless pretty hard.

- Radar derp cancels target decay to 100%. Balance? Lol...

- Spreads damage all over the enemy. Great.

- Minimum range. Every decent player hugs you in a 1 on 1. I know I do.

- Stare weapon because of locks. No boom and twist.

- You can't often even get a lock if parts of the enemy mech are hidden by terrain. Like legs behind a rock, everything else clearly visible. Nope. No dorito.

- Tag makes you a prime target for everyone on the enemy team. Also, why can't we just switch that thing on and of at least? Pretty annoying to give up one of your mouse buttons to use it effectively.

Atms:

- Same problems as lrms but can't even fire indirectly to counter hill peeking. But well, with everyone (me included) having radar derp on any mech, those can't do this any longer anyway.

- Also terrible velocity. Downright awful. Like the next contender...

Streaks:

- Kings of spreading damage all over a mech. Same problems as other lock on weapons.
At least Streaks work well together with a bap. But that's the only good thing to say about those.

- Light counter? Nope. I play lights regularly and streaks ain't a thing I worry about. Lasers are WAY more dangerous for every decent light pilot because those ARE going to hit you.

Rocket Launchers:

- One shot gimmick weapon not worth the tonnage almost all the time.


Honestly, whenever I choose to bring one of my missile boats to the fight, I regret it.
Except for mrms (as mentioned above) they are all terrible.
To make some of them even usable, buffs alone would not be enough. All lock on weapons beasically need a complete rework imo.
Srms on the other hand -- those could use some serious buffs to give them a place in the long range meta we got now.

Edited by Reverend Flashback, 04 June 2022 - 03:03 AM.

[Seelenlos]

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

Srms:

- Crappy range. Watch your volley hit an enemy at 271 meters and go "Poof".
- Terrible velocity. One of the worst in the whole game. Only beaten by other missile weapons. Try hitting any fast mech and cry.
- Play the waiting game for half the match, before you are even able to deal damage. Exciting...
- Awful spread. Try applying damge to a specific location and cry again.
- Affected by ams. How would you feel in any other game if the enemy picked your shotgun bullets out of the air? You would say "shotguns suck" and take an assault rifle instead...

Range can bei extended with Skill-Points.

It is good they are this way, else no one would need MRM

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

Lrms:

- Feast or famine. In 9 out of 10 games it's famine. Have fun dealing with triple ams kit foxes and corsairs in the middle of the blob all day long. Send 2000 missiles towards your target while having line of sight and go home with 300 dmg. Also have fun with teams that stick together (as they should) and are kitted out with single ams and ecm. You got rendered useless pretty hard.
- Radar derp cancels target decay to 100%. Balance? Lol...
- Spreads damage all over the enemy. Great.
- Minimum range. Every decent player hugs you in a 1 on 1. I know I do.
- Stare weapon because of locks. No boom and twist.
- You can't often even get a lock if parts of the enemy mech are hidden by terrain. Like legs behind a rock, everything else clearly visible. Nope. No dorito.
- Tag makes you a prime target for everyone on the enemy team. Also, why can't we just switch that thing on and of at least? Pretty annoying to give up one of your mouse buttons to use it effectively.

The Missile would dominate the Battlefield without Counter! AND I HAVE MISSILES IN ALL MECHS!

RADAR-DERP is another issue.
PGI made a mistake here.
This PERK should be viveversa the other PERK:
Either you can have someone longer in lock and yourself too, or you can be unlocked faster but you can not lock too.

So this is a DESIGN-D....ness, if you like in RL, give the designer all rights, without no "REVISION"...
Standard Human Error Behavior!

Maybe they correct that !?!

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

Atms:
- Same problems as lrms but can't even fire indirectly to counter hill peeking. But well, with everyone (me included) having radar derp on any mech, those can't do this any longer anyway.
- Also terrible velocity. Downright awful. Like the next contender...

ATMs should not be changes at all.
They are now in a good state. Not too powerfull, not to underestimate, and for that you must take the risk to expose yourself!
This is a full-balanced reward-vs-risk weapon.

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

Streaks:
- Kings of spreading damage all over a mech. Same problems as other lock on weapons.
At least Streaks work well together with a bap. But that's the only good thing to say about those.
- Light counter? Nope. I play lights regularly and streaks ain't a thing I worry about. Lasers are WAY more dangerous for every decent light pilot because those ARE going to hit you.

Steaks are a little too heavy for their porpoises, but thats the canon... maybe ok ....

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

Rocket Launchers:
- One shot gimmick weapon not worth the tonnage almost all the time.

Last resort weapon, if you don't want to use Ammo-Tonnage, cause you go Laser/AC
I don't use at all

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

Honestly, whenever I choose to bring one of my missile boats to the fight, I regret it.
Except for mrms (as mentioned above) they are all terrible.
To make some of them even usable, buffs alone would not be enough. All lock on weapons beasically need a complete rework imo.
Srms on the other hand -- those could use some serious buffs to give them a place in the long range meta we got now.

I would only correct that the IS-Missile always get a 50-40-10 spread on all Mechs when in indirect fire and 30-40-30 in direct fire...

Would that be programmable?

Edited by Seelenlos, 04 June 2022 - 04:13 AM.

[katoult]

Just pointing out a few things

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

Srms:
- Crappy range. Watch your volley hit an enemy at 271 meters and go "Poof".

SRMs (IS) are range-synced to standard medium lasers and AC20s. Perfectly usable, especially in combination.

That brawling is dead in MWO in higher tiers has nothing to do with weapon ranges.

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

Lrms:
- Stare weapon because of locks. No boom and twist.

You do have arm actuators, you know.

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

Atms:
- Same problems as lrms

Actually ATMs only have one problem: Their low health vs AMS, which would need to be at least doubled to make it a weapon system one could use again.

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

but can't even fire indirectly to counter hill peeking.

Like said above, arm actuators? Flicking ATMs to loop their flight path is a standard tactic. Or at least it was when they were more widely used.

Seelenlos, on 04 June 2022 - 03:48 AM, said:

It is good they are this way, else no one would need MRM

No one needs MRMs. They were made obsolescent by turning them into snapshot weapons and removing their sole individual benefit of being able to correct aim while shooting. Their range envelope, weapon weight, cloud spread and AMS susceptibility yields no advantages over dumbfired LRMs.

[Seelenlos]

katoult, on 04 June 2022 - 07:14 AM, said:

No one needs MRMs. They were made obsolescent by turning them into snapshot weapons and removing their sole individual benefit of being able to correct aim while shooting. Their range envelope, weapon weight, cloud spread and AMS susceptibility yields no advantages over dumbfired LRMs.

Good to know their perverted that...

[FindersWeepers]

I think missile balance is ok where it is.

[YouKnowNothing]

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

- Radar derp cancels target decay to 100%. Balance? Lol...

Wait, you think ******** magic tracking past LoS is a balanced mechanic? LOL! LMAO!

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

- Stare weapon because of locks. No boom and twist.

RACs are the same. U/AC2s are the same. I don't see complaints about them.

Reverend Flashback, on 04 June 2022 - 03:00 AM, said:

- Tag makes you a prime target for everyone on the enemy team. Also, why can't we just switch that thing on and of at least? Pretty annoying to give up one of your mouse buttons to use it effectively.

I think the stream of missiles marks you more as a target than just the TAG. But that's just my opinion.

EDITED because ****** formatting.

Edited by YouKnowNothing, 04 June 2022 - 09:49 AM.

[YouKnowNothing]

katoult, on 04 June 2022 - 07:14 AM, said:

[...] MRMs. They were made obsolescent by turning them into snapshot weapons and removing their sole individual benefit of being able to correct aim while shooting. Their range envelope, weapon weight, cloud spread and AMS susceptibility yields no advantages over dumbfired LRMs.

What the hell are you talking about? Please explain it to me like I'm 5 and slow of brainpower because I have no idea what you're on about.
Snapshot weapons? What? As opposed to what?
Removing [...] being able to correct aim while shooting? What do you mean by this? AFAIK previously they just when went where you first pointed when you fired them, like dumbfired LRMs, now you can track with the stream, so it's the opposite of what you're saying...

Edited by YouKnowNothing, 04 June 2022 - 10:47 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

YouKnowNothing, on 04 June 2022 - 09:52 AM, said:

What the hell are you talking about? Please explain it to me like I'm 5 and slow of brainpower because I have no idea what you're on about.
Snapshot weapons? What? As opposed to what?
Removing [...] being able to correct aim while shooting? What do you mean by this? AFAIK previously they just when where you first pointed when you fired them, like dumbfired LRMs, now you can track with the stream, so it's the opposite of what you're saying...

I think he's saying MRM's are shooting in too much of a cluster, not in a stream.
Which, they did that to MRM10's, but the rest of the MRM's are still vomit streams afaik.

[YouKnowNothing]

feeWAIVER, on 04 June 2022 - 10:04 AM, said:

I think he's saying MRM's are shooting in too much of a cluster, not in a stream.
Which, they did that to MRM10's, but the rest of the MRM's are still vomit streams afaik.

Hmm... and we all know short duration bad... because that's why they gave heavy lasers longer duration to balance them.

[MrMadguy]

SRMs and LRMs are ok. Lights, being immune to any missiles except may be SSRM - is different problem.

SRMs are short range by design. They're cheap and lightweight missiles for lighter 'Mechs, that have enough mobility to come closer to enemy. Yeah, it was big mistake not to provide anything to fill gap between SRMs and LRMs for Heavier 'Mechs. But this mistake is fixed now. At least for IS. IS has MRMs.

LRMs are ok, because they would be way too deadly, if they would be more powerful. Yeah, sometimes they're useless, but sometimes they kill you within seconds. But it's ok, that some teamwork is needed to both make them effective and counter them. Yeah, 100% radar derp is too much though.

SSRM are too weak. Too much boating is needed for them to be effective. I experimented with them and even SSRM18 isn't effective enough against Lights. You fire one salvo, another, third one, but this squirrel still runs with yellow armor.

ATMs are almost useless after LRM buff, i.e. direct fire bonus. I no longer use them on new 'Mechs. They should provide some advantages over LRMs in order to compensate heavier weight and higher number of slots required. They can't be compared with their IS counterpart - MRMs. MRMs are much more better.

Rocket launchers? What is it?

Edited by MrMadguy, 04 June 2022 - 11:34 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Missiles are perfectly fine..

What's so bad about rockets being a gimmick..
I'd never build a mech based around them, for serious play, but they're fun..

SRM's are not bad, SRM's bigges issue are getting the mech into a position they can use them. AMS will take missiles but with only 270 to travel, they don't kill many...


MRM's well if the map designs were more brawl friendly, I'd not use MRM's, but they are not, very brawl friendly, so I use MRM's out of need.. MRM's no longer stream, because bad players complained about how good players 'cheated' by torso twisting, which spreads the damage..( the same reason Clan players complained about their LRMS streaming, which is a balance feature.. )


LRM's well if your using them at ranges much longer than effective MRM range, you deserve to miss lots and have them taken out by AMS..

LRM's best use is at around 400 meters, the only reasons they should be used over 600, is for annoyance value, making snipers duck, or wasting AMS ammunition for when it matters..those MRM's are only getting through because the AMS is running out..

Also

Tag..not just for you, but helps every other member of your team with targeting ECM mechs Tagged mechs killed by others still give you credits and XP..

You don't like TAG which can with skill points range out to 900 meters, because you can't twist and feel helpless and you say makes you a prime target..but you say MRM's are bad because they don't stream, but by streaming it means you can't torso twist, until they have ended and your easier to hit.

Also I don't see why you think TAG makes you instant target number one..I very much doubt your playing tip of the spear.. and from my experience of LRMing it doesn't, and I prefer to Lurm at 300-400 meters. where back up weapons can help remove weakend sections.

Streaks with a Tag or narc are very much a counter for light mechs unless of course its an Urbie.. and nothing counters an Urbie, except another Urbie..




Missiles work

Edited by C E Dwyer, 04 June 2022 - 01:54 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

If you don't like SRMs... try Artemis with them. Artemis 6 has a tight spread, and Artemis 4 is practically pinpoint damage. Doesn't help the range and velocity issues, but it does make them deadlier.

And LRMs aren't feast or famine weapons unless that's all you've got on your mech. Try Artemis LRMs and a fistful of large or ER Medium Lasers. Zap and blast, with the OPTION of indirect fire on your way to the next target for your lazors.

[Ihlrath]

Our esteemed Scrap Primus is correct.

Personally I've never understood the idea of boating just missiles on a big mech. Have something for backup. While I agree with the OP on a lot of points, missile and tracking weapons have been nerfed into the ground because a certain group of players don't like them..... but they're far from useless.

I've made people's lives hell with ATMs quite a few times. It's all in how you engage.

[Seelenlos]

But YOU all must agree to this:

Target Decay < must be mutually exclusive > Radar Deprivation

You take that, you can not take the other, as it is how the active passive sensors should work!

Exactly how Stealth fighters work!

So that will also allow a lot of game play:
Scout with Radar Deprivation, go as near as possible. LRM Boat hat that f... scout as long as possible in Target,

It would be so that the standard rate of Deprivation would be half on a skilled mech vs Standard Mech and bonus of 25% for ECM-Mechs, so that they are still not instantly vanished. >> damn it would hit me the most, as I am an ECM-Rider... but that's how things should work.

No Risk to raise the tiers!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

You effectively have three flavors of missiles:

SRMs/MRMs - Shotguns that didn't get effective ranges changed very much despite all direct fire weapons getting at least double the range (with falloff of course, but still counts as 50% of damage is better than 0). Hit registration is typically a bit funky with these weapons, but also typically are used as more brawl or push oriented weapons. They don't have the greatest synergy with most weapons either since most other direct fire weapons now have at least twice the velocity of these weapons, so largely end up being boated en masse. SRMs have taken a bit of a back seat since MRMs were introduced, partly because MRMs just have a more flexible range to play with and similar damage per ton (even if at expense of heat), and partly because they have damage output to help farm damage against the significant number of heavy mechs per match.

ATMs/LRMs - Lock-on weapons that have been hammered with nerf after nerf because of how radar/lock-on are so coupled in this game. These are probably the most in need of a complete rework along with AMS/ECM/TAG/BAP/NARCs. Tend to be very feast or famine because of this and this basically removes any sort of ranged missile option from most missile based mechs if you want to take a more viable/consistent build. Unfortunately a lot of this stems from early decisions made in closed beta (allowing LRMs indirect fire, shared radar, AMS has a rate of fire, and removal of fire and forget missiles).

Streaks - Lock-on weapons that target random sections of a mech however they take the straightest path to their targets so they can somewhat focus sections based on the angle of attack. Used to be broken back when they homed in on center mass but since that change were used as light killers/deterrents because lights did not have enough armor to really survive the damage saturation. Since ghost heat changes, are less threatening all around. Much like the lock-on weapons above, they need serious rework to be threatening to mechs other than just lights. If I'm a heavy and assault, I just laugh at helpless streakboats if we are at similar health because while their damage numbers will show a lot, unfocused damage has to be significant to overcome good aim.

Unfortunately I ignore most missile mechs and have for a long time because they just don't have options that play well currently. If I am using missiles, it is probably MRMs and maybe once in a blue moon SRMs if I think I can force a brawl well enough. Otherwise it is direct fire all the way because this games lock-on mechanics and all systems related have a screwed up relationship that makes them worthless a majority of the time in broken in the one or two matches you get where they aren't worthless.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 June 2022 - 05:05 PM.

[crazytimes]

Boated SRMs on fast mechs work fine. LRMs are mostly event weapons. Again though, boated on fast mechs where you can get your own locks they do alright. Groups can use them very effectively, but that's usually an event thing as well.

ATMs are a lot less popular after some of last years changes, but again they work alright on faster mechs that can make the most of the short range envelope.

Feels like you're after some kind of standoff pinpoint weapon. Perhaps any of the weapon families are what you're after.

[caravann]

Streak is for light and quick mechs with MASC. SRM is for mechs with tonnage and hardpoints.
MRM is for mechs with few hardpoints and relatively light on tonnage. LRM is a combined arms tool.
ATM is a cannon fodder used with LBX and ERPPC. C-LRM is a sandblaster able to fight from any range.
Artemis SRM used to reduce spread of SRM6.

Velocity of missiles is why they're not used in duels.The missiles works like LBX in direct fire.
Why use missiles when you have tonnage for LBX. Mainly because missiles are lighter.
But that weight is a reduction of velocity and the missiles are big and slow and you can evade them.

Velocity on missiles is higher valued than cool down, heat, range or tracking combined.
That's why TAG and NARC should increase the velocity.

The mech itself doesn't gain increasing firing rate but the chances to hit are significantly increased by velocity.
Velocity determine the amount of time for AMS to track missiles. Doesn't is sound like something a TAG or NARC should do since the goal with the weapons is to increase accuracy. Velocity in MWO is accuracy.

[cazeral]

YouKnowNothing, on 04 June 2022 - 09:48 AM, said:

Wait, you think ******** magic tracking past LoS is a balanced mechanic? LOL! LMAO!

Read up about the Exocet missile system used in the Falklands War. Fired at up to 43 miles from target, it sank the HMS Sheffield and caused notable damage to the SS Atlantic Conveyor and the HMS Glamorgan.

Taking a rough calculation of distance viewable horizon of square root of (13 x view height) and a mech being about 10m high, this meant that at 11.4 miles horizon, the missile could be launched at nearly 4 times your viewable range, track and destroy you.

Its not "magic tracking", it is a sad reality of modern warfare.

I guess you are living up to your name

[Reverend Flashback]

I like how there are quite a few people trying to explain some real basic stuff to me I'm well aware of. Just to clarify:
Accoriding to steam I've played this game for 1000 hours and spent at least another 700+ on mechnav theory crafting (I think it is probably way more but I obviously can't know).
I'm also sitting at T1 and do know very well how to use lrms/atms effectively IF the circumstances allow to.
No need to tell me to sling them at targets 300-500 meters away or use arm acutators (if available) to keep locks, which does btw change very little about the points I brought up.

Nothing that has been said convinced me to think different about missile boats.
It's also kinda funny reading comments like "Srms are fine but they suck in high tier gameplay". So, they are appearently not fine.

And yes, you can have good or even great games when boating missiles, but not with the same consistency as with energy/ballistic builds. Especially lrms and atms feel like a diceroll because of the reasons stated in op.

If anything, all types of missile weapons (except mrms to repeat...) are weapons of opportunity right now.
You basically NEED to mix them with lasers most of the time (or ballistics on assaults/some heavies) to make them decently work.
And at this point I'm often questioning myself: "Would I have been better of by bringing a pure energy or ballistic build?"
The answer is always the same: "Yes, I would have been."

Edited by Reverend Flashback, 05 June 2022 - 03:19 AM.

[Thorqemada]

katoult, on 04 June 2022 - 07:14 AM, said:

No one needs MRMs. They were made obsolescent by turning them into snapshot weapons and removing their sole individual benefit of being able to correct aim while shooting. Their range envelope, weapon weight, cloud spread and AMS susceptibility yields no advantages over dumbfired LRMs.

They have done what???

This is ridiculous!!!