39 replies to this topic

[Nesutizale]

Since it came up in another thread about IS Omnis, something I would like to see beeing a thing, how can IS XL engines become a thing that fits with the game?

My first idea would be to change the rule of "3 engine hits and you are out" to 4 to 5 engine hits to kill a mech with each critical hit adding aditional heat.

Speaking of the heat, don't make it a heat spike but a rising heat level, like weaponfire. Except that you don't cool off but keep a higher base level of heat. Like your weapon wouldn't stop firing.

A different approach to heat, what if you would loose in performance?
For exampel you loose speed and weapons need longer to be charged or your heat dissapation is slower.

Do you have other ideas on how to handle IS XL engines, that could be transfered to Clans too and DOES NOT involve quirking the heck out of mechs or changeing hitboxes.

Goal should be to make IS XL engines more useable and in the end allow for stuff like IS Omnis to become something that could actualy be conciderated.

[Gasboy]

How are XLs not usable? You get a decent amount of tonnage back for a moderate risk.

[martian]

Just use the Light Engine.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Yeah, not dying to a side torso hit is the whole point of the light engine. If you gave that to the XL too, you’d have to make a damaged XL run so hot that people would regret ever taking it. Just use the light.

[Sjorpha]

At this point IS quirks are balanced around their engines being much worse than cxl, so it would be a huge undertaking. It's too late to start with that now imo.

Edited by Sjorpha, 05 July 2022 - 10:14 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Someone once suggested removing death from Side Torso's and adding 50 structure to CT for standard engines, 25 for light engines.
This would also promote Clan standard engines as well.

[Knownswift]

Re-agility sync ISXL. More risk, more twist seems fair.

[Tarl Cabot]

Copy/pasted from another thread, I am with removing the Death from 1st ST destroyed to making each non-STD engine different in their non-instant death configuration baseline.

Tarl Cabot, on 16 November 2020 - 06:59 PM, said:

This +1.

PGI is utilizing only a portion of the engine crit rules and heatscale. Add that for any players running an IS trial mech or purchasing trial/champion/etc IS mechs w/isXL, even with the heat bar sitting at 0% isXL is instant death w/loss of a ST, whereas for cXL and the couple of mechs w/LFE it isn't. And it would make IS Omnimechs viable instead of players targeting a ST instead of CT/cockpit or both ST/legs to kill said mech. (CT/cockpit/both legs still needed for STD too ).

• isXL 40% Engine loss heat capacity / x% loss heat dissipation / 25% movement
  
• cXL 25-30% Engine loss heat capacity/ x% loss heat dissipation / 20% movement
  
• LFE 15-20% Engine loss heat capacity/ x% loss heat dissipation / 15% movement

[C E Dwyer]

XL engines seem very usable..
Learn your mech, Learn your hit boxes.

[ScrapIron Prime]

C E Dwyer, on 05 July 2022 - 01:39 PM, said:

XL engines seem very usable..
Learn your mech, Learn your hit boxes.

Well that’s just it. Due to geometry and agility, some mechs they’re great, a few are death traps.

[PocketYoda]

feeWAIVER, on 05 July 2022 - 10:36 AM, said:

Someone once suggested removing death from Side Torso's and adding 50 structure to CT for standard engines, 25 for light engines.
This would also promote Clan standard engines as well.

I like that idea and i assume it would be easy to implement.

I never use XL inner sphere the bonuses do not out weigh the cons.. ever.

Edited by Nomad Tech, 05 July 2022 - 04:16 PM.

[caravann]

Nomad Tech, on 05 July 2022 - 04:15 PM, said:

I like that idea and i assume it would be easy to implement.

I never use XL inner sphere the bonuses do not out weigh the cons.. ever.

Since you don't use XL engines, these changes won't affect you and why should we promote changes who has no effect.

[martian]

Nomad Tech, on 05 July 2022 - 04:15 PM, said:

I never use XL inner sphere the bonuses do not out weigh the cons.. ever.

You really should.

IS XL engines are excellent choice on many IS light 'Mechs and they often work well on many IS medium and heavy 'Mechs.

[Escef]

What most of you are missing is that this is in the context of IS omnimechs. Omnimechs have fixed engines, you can't change them. The BJ-O Blackjack, Avatar, Sunder, and Templar all mount XL engines and have sub-70 kph top speeds. Not only would that be risky in an IS battlemech, in an omni where you have no choice but to use the stock engine people will focus down a side torso for a faster kill.

As I said elsewhere, provided IS XL engines are not changed, the best bet for balancing such things is grant generous survival quirks and make the side torso hit boxes smaller than on other mechs of comparable size.

[Gasboy]

Escef, on 05 July 2022 - 09:11 PM, said:

What most of you are missing is that this is in the context of IS omnimechs. Omnimechs have fixed engines, you can't change them. The BJ-O Blackjack, Avatar, Sunder, and Templar all mount XL engines and have sub-70 kph top speeds. Not only would that be risky in an IS battlemech, in an omni where you have no choice but to use the stock engine people will focus down a side torso for a faster kill.

As I said elsewhere, provided IS XL engines are not changed, the best bet for balancing such things is grant generous survival quirks and make the side torso hit boxes smaller than on other mechs of comparable size.

I'm sure if IS omnis become a thing, PGI will have a brilliant solution. We'll probably have more P variants. Or maybe they'll open up engine options for all omnis.

But until they decide IS omnis will exist, this thread is just mental [redacted].

Edited by Ekson Valdez, 07 July 2022 - 03:12 AM.

[RickySpanish]

The engines right now are fine, with the exception of Clan standard which nobody uses. Want to get the max performance out of your 'Mech? Go XL. If you feel that losing a side torso won't make your 'Mech useless and it happens often by design? Try LFE. Want to zombie? Go IS STD. There's use cases for most engines right now, and I don't get why people get so hung up about IS XL specifically. The advantages in weight drop are huge, enabling IS 'Mechs with all their quirks to boat weapon loadouts similar to Clan 'Mechs.

[Nesutizale]

RickySpanish, on 06 July 2022 - 10:15 AM, said:

The engines right now are fine, with the exception of Clan standard which nobody uses. Want to get the max performance out of your 'Mech? Go XL. If you feel that losing a side torso won't make your 'Mech useless and it happens often by design? Try LFE. Want to zombie? Go IS STD. There's use cases for most engines right now, and I don't get why people get so hung up about IS XL specifically. The advantages in weight drop are huge, enabling IS 'Mechs with all their quirks to boat weapon loadouts similar to Clan 'Mechs.

Except that with IS Omnis you don't have that choice. That is if IS Omnis would work the same as Clans.
You are stuck with what you have.

[RickySpanish]

Nesutizale, on 06 July 2022 - 11:01 AM, said:

Except that with IS Omnis you don't have that choice. That is if IS Omnis would work the same as Clans.
You are stuck with what you have.

Then that would surely be a feature of that particular IS Omnimech?

[Gasboy]

Nesutizale, on 06 July 2022 - 11:01 AM, said:

Except that with IS Omnis you don't have that choice. That is if IS Omnis would work the same as Clans.
You are stuck with what you have.

So? You know up front what you're getting yourself into.

No need to force a rebalance for all the mechs just so IS omnis can be extra special.

[MyriadDigits]

Nesutizale, on 05 July 2022 - 01:18 AM, said:

Since it came up in another thread about IS Omnis, something I would like to see beeing a thing, how can IS XL engines become a thing that fits with the game?

My first idea would be to change the rule of "3 engine hits and you are out" to 4 to 5 engine hits to kill a mech with each critical hit adding aditional heat.

Speaking of the heat, don't make it a heat spike but a rising heat level, like weaponfire. Except that you don't cool off but keep a higher base level of heat. Like your weapon wouldn't stop firing.

A different approach to heat, what if you would loose in performance?
For exampel you loose speed and weapons need longer to be charged or your heat dissapation is slower.

Do you have other ideas on how to handle IS XL engines, that could be transfered to Clans too and DOES NOT involve quirking the heck out of mechs or changeing hitboxes.

Goal should be to make IS XL engines more useable and in the end allow for stuff like IS Omnis to become something that could actualy be conciderated.

I think before discussing engine balance you should have an actual understanding of how engines in MWO behave in the first place.

Engines crits don't exist. (nor should they)

Engines already lose heat capacity with side torso loss, and in fact that is why heat "spikes" when an LFE or cXL equipped mech loses a side torso.

Engines already lose speed with side torso loss.

Engines already lose dissipation with side torso loss.

While not directly increasing cooldown, the crippled state of heat dissipation and capacity dramatically lowers a mech's sustained DPS, and lowers the volume of burst damage they can achieve before being heat capped. Not to mention the mech is also likely missing about half of its firepower. Its not a mechanic that is needed.