66 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Wow, thanks! I'm glad my self-therapy in "Cowardice Timidity Is Not a Tactic" helped you out (someone with mod powers didn't like it, so they illegally stealth-modded it to Kratakoa and I had to change the name to bring it back. ) Fat4Eyes' guide is actually Still Stickied up in the Guides forum.

[sosegado]

Void Angel, on 02 September 2022 - 05:39 PM, said:

Wow, thanks! I'm glad my self-therapy in "Cowardice Timidity Is Not a Tactic" helped you out (someone with mod powers didn't like it, so they illegally stealth-modded it to Kratakoa and I had to change the name to bring it back. ) Fat4Eyes' guide is actually Still Stickied up in the Guides forum.

I didn't just identify with the assaults in your guides and fat4eyes's illustrations, I thought you guys owed ME copyrights for literally writing about my experiences as an assault pilot!

[RockmachinE]

I don't know how the game plays in lower tiers, but in Tier 1 I constantly find myself asking "wtf are you people doing". Even at T1 there's still no basic competence and players do stupid stuff despite having more experience.

I think you'd have to find a group for that. Public queue is always reta*ded regardless of tier.

Having said all of that I think a lot of quality players left in the last two years. People play significantly worse than they used to.

[Chados]

You know, the “escort the assaults” thing is how I changed from running mostly Catapults and doing tactical LRMs to more often running lights like the R5K Flea and mediums like the Uziel 3S when I played MWO before. I worked my way from T5 to T1 and was in the top ten on the Uziel 3S(S) leaderboard when it first was released. It’s the right way to go.

Then I put the game away for a couple years, and came back recently, and though solo and group queues are merged now the game isn’t too different. Dakka is stil king, there’s still plenty of gauss/PPC sniping, and LRMboats are still light food. Though I’m back in T5 again. And that’s okay-I’m pretty rusty. Though I did get the UZL-3S(S) out again last night for old times’ sake.

[sosegado]

So is, or maybe more importantly, Can, Tier progression also be tied to completing certain achievements? Preferably the kind that help the team?

[Hunka Junk]

Stab Wound, on 02 September 2022 - 08:41 AM, said:

I'm Tier 4. I drop in my assault and the team takes off.

So you're asking what tier has the 'better people' who will escort your assault mech?

If you die because the team leaves your assault mech behind, then you need to shop around for a mech that's a better fit for you as opposed to looking for a team of internet randos that's going to help.

I think you're trying to make the game adapt to you rather than you adapting to the game.

[Hunka Junk]

Stab Wound, on 04 September 2022 - 12:37 AM, said:

So is, or maybe more importantly, Can, Tier progression also be tied to completing certain achievements? Preferably the kind that help the team?

It already is. The achievements happen every match. Lance in formation is the one related to this topic. Scouting, spot assist, savior kills, kill most damage, component destroyed, capping the objective, etc...

Your match score is significantly affected by those as well as damage, kills, and assists.

There was a time, when going up in tiers was just about how much experience you logged.

[Brizna]

If your team starts nascaring and you are in a slow mech don't try to follow. Instead lay low in a corner, allow the enemy team to nascar past you, wait for the inevitable engagement to begin and only then poke out.

It's not that difficult really, you just need to turn off your lemming mind set and hide patiently.

[Void Angel]

... I... guess that might work? But if you're too slow to keep up with the team, you're going to be absent until many fights are already decided.

My experience with piloting an Assault is that generally people don't just get left behind. Yes, I know an Assault can't keep up with faster mechs if those 'mechs are in motion, but generally if you pick an optimal path to where you know the team is going to go, it works out. I have lost track of the number of times I've had players on my team start screaming about "NASCAR," and "don't leave the Assault" while I'm up WITH the team - piloting my brawling Atlas.

This is not to say that Assault pilots are always at fault if they get left. That's happened to me, too. But most often I've been able to stay with the team, because most PuGs will invariably stop and try to fight wherever they're first attacked - an error usually also committed by those Assault pilots who were "left behind to die."

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Void Angel, on 04 September 2022 - 07:55 AM, said:

... I... guess that might work? But if you're too slow to keep up with the team, you're going to be absent until many fights are already decided.

He is correct, if lights are nipping at your heels, it is better to turn around and fight than continue running and dying without doing any damage. Often lesser light pilots will thank twice when an assault is facing them that when you are running to keep up. The best option is if you know the team is going to over rotate, deviate from the race track. Force the enemy team to have squirrel for you. This means they have further to travel to catch back up giving your team time to catch up with the tail of the snake.

The number of times I've seen mechs running from danger and end up never doing damage (not just assaults, this happens to a lot of mechs) when they should've just turned and fought to at least do some damage is numerous.

Void Angel, on 04 September 2022 - 07:55 AM, said:

My experience with piloting an Assault is that generally people don't just get left behind. Yes, I know an Assault can't keep up with faster mechs if those 'mechs are in motion, but generally if you pick an optimal path to where you know the team is going to go, it works out. I have lost track of the number of times I've had players on my team start screaming about "NASCAR," and "don't leave the Assault" while I'm up WITH the team - piloting my brawling Atlas.

To be fair, a brawling Atlas SHOULD be faster than a good chunk of assaults. Pathing can only get you so far depending on the average speed of the rest of the team and whether you are risking getting caught out in a bad position in that transition (Canyon has some notorious spots to avoid getting caught in). Some spawn locations can be dreadful to get put in for assaults (Hibernal is particularly notorious for having some awful spawns for a slow assault to get put in).

[caravann]

brawling atlas... just get a banshee or a charger with SRM and an autocannon 80kph

[Brizna]

Obviously there's nascar and then there's NASCAAAAR. If you are in an assault and can keep up and even lead the push against the enemy please do, but if you see you can't keep up don't even try, you will just be killed miserably.

As quicksilver said, this will end sometime in you dying fighting several foes all alone, but it will not be as fast as if you were just caught in the open and you will be able to give much pain in return, between the diversion of important forces away from the main confrontation and the damage you will actually manage to do chances are your team wins even if you die.

Lastly while the broad plan is solid, I guarantee that to you, then there's execution that can go wrong, being detected too early, firing too early forcing detection, having enemy mechs where they would usually not go stumbling into you etc.

Btw to play this you are a lot better of with a medium to longish range mech preferably with ECM to make hiding a lot easier and detection by several foes a lot more difficult once you engage. An isolated brawling assault will be detected as soon as it starts firing and likely die in a glorious ball of fire, hey but you can do well over 500+ dmg, at this point you weren't dead weight for your team. PS: Don't forget the OVERRIDE and keep mashing those buttons on your mouse Leeroy!!

Edited by Brizna, 04 September 2022 - 10:36 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Unless a friendly assault mech is heading off to Timbuktu, I always try to escort them to the fight.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Void Angel]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 September 2022 - 08:38 AM, said:

The number of times I've seen mechs running from danger and end up never doing damage (not just assaults, this happens to a lot of mechs) when they should've just turned and fought to at least do some damage is numerous.

Once you're engaged, sure turn and fight - but you shouldn't be that far behind, if you're pathing properly. The only thing that had to be slower than my old-school brawling Atlas was a Dire Wolf. But what would happen is that the trailing Assault would take fire - and stop cold. They would then stand in place and try to fight two or three Lights and/or Mediums, while whatever LRMs were on the other team came raining down on them. Two or three minutes later, queue the acrimonious complaints. But the thing is, they often weren't two minutes away from the team. They weren't even ONE minute away from the team a some of the time - if they'd just kept moving.

Now, I'm not so active any more, and so maybe the meta has changed since I acquired the bulk of my playing experience - nobody had access to Light Fusion Engines back then, for example. But see, that's the thing: when the same complaints continue year after year, even when the game mechanics allow for better mobility, it's probably not just the mechanics that are involved. And even at the time, I saw a LOT of Assault pilots whose builds I know were as fast as mine (because they started in my lance and kept pace with me at first) simply get left because they weren't playing their 'mechs right.

It's like the old joke: "How do you engage the reverse gear on an Atlas? Shoot it with a Medium Laser." A lot of pilots take damage, stop, look around for the source, and then either turn back around to catch up to the team or try to drive off their attacker, depending on if they see someone. I've seen players so often pick the slowest thing in their stable, fail to take the limitation seriously, and then never learn because they blame it all on the team "leaving the assaults." It's not a single-cause problem, and it doesn't have a binary solution set. Certainly, the team should not ignore a threat to 85-100 tons of its drop weight; a significant force of fast 'mechs swarming a lagging assault is an opportunity, in fact: that swarm is probably closer to your team than they are to theirs. But that's just it, you see: the lagging assault should be protected because it's needed in the fight - just like the Assault who's hiding away from the team to prevent being picked off is needed. It doesn't matter if you did 500 damage if your absence costs the team another 'mech or two in firepower because they're engaging 11 on 12. You have to account for that risk, and it doesn't seem like an optimal decision to me.

Edited by Void Angel, 04 September 2022 - 01:02 PM.

[Escef]

Stab Wound, on 02 September 2022 - 08:41 AM, said:

I don't even bother saying anything anymore, ...

Other than starting each match by singing your own praises?

Yeah, I was in 2 matches with you this past morning. Not sure if you were joking, or...?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Void Angel, on 04 September 2022 - 12:59 PM, said:

Once you're engaged, sure turn and fight - but you shouldn't be that far behind, if you're pathing properly. The only thing that had to be slower than my old-school brawling Atlas was a Dire Wolf.

There are plenty of slower end assaults that are good, MKII (depends on the build though), Whale, Annihilator, Nightstars, etc.

That said, it is important to understand that keeping up can be problematic, like going through death valley on Canyon which generally means death for an assault if it isn't off the start of the game. In cases like those, you are better off sticking to a position and being an anchor/anvil. This isn't just "once engaged" it is about knowing when you are about to get jumped for being out of position and knowing when to avoid awful positions even if it means "splitting the party"

Yes, bad players complain about Nascar, I am just saying you aren't always able to be keep up and have the same advantageous spot. The answer isn't always "try to keep up" the answer isn't always "turn and face" either. It takes time to build up the experience to know when to do which. Typically though, it is some combination of how defensible the position is, how aggressive the opfor is, how wide the both rotations are, etc.

Sometimes just taking the enemy on a trip through awful positioning is worth being the squirrel, I know I've done that before.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 September 2022 - 01:36 PM.

[Bassault]

Tier 1 has people just like this. Or they're just the tier 3s mixed in the tier 1 matchmaking. Regardless, only you can change the outcome of the matches.

As for basic competence, to me at least it's
1. Knowing what parts of the map to avoid
2. Being able to hit the mech and hit the CT in close range
3. Not running away when the fight starts
4. Torso twisting and reacting to dmg when you are shot at
5. General spatial and situational awareness. (Example: being able to infer that if the enemy is not here then they are over there, or seeing gunfire from behind a wall and inferring an enemy mech is shooting from there, looking at the map.)

This basic competence is only found in players at tier one, and probably the top half of tier 1.

Edited by I LOVE ANNIHILATORS, 04 September 2022 - 01:31 PM.

[Kanil]

Void Angel, on 04 September 2022 - 07:55 AM, said:

My experience with piloting an Assault is that generally people don't just get left behind. Yes, I know an Assault can't keep up with faster mechs if those 'mechs are in motion, but generally if you pick an optimal path to where you know the team is going to go, it works out.

Yeah, it's totally not hard to lead the charge in a 55 KPH assault 'mech. Most people run off at full throttle until first contact with the enemy, at which point timidity kicks in and they stop -- this is where you catch up and get yourself involved in the game.

Anyway, with regard to the OP: others have said it already, but there's not really any point where basic competence shows up. There's also no hard break point where "I'm tier 2 now, things are different" or whatever, it's just a slow progression from "see astonishingly dumb things happen every match" to "see astonishingly dumb things happen only sometimes".

[Void Angel]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 04 September 2022 - 01:27 PM, said:

This isn't just "once engaged" it is about knowing when you are about to get jumped for being out of position and knowing when to avoid awful positions even if it means "splitting the party"

I've done that, in fact. Sometimes it's necessary to move by yourself, even with a large, lumbering vehicle. And that's kind of my point: it's not solely the team's responsibility to limp along with you while ceding tactical strong points to the enemy; there's a reason heat maps of every battlefield cluster around certain terrain features, because those features are important. The implications of the tactical situation require action from the pilot in some aspects, and from the team in others. I think we agree on that.

But when we're talking about literally hiding in a corner somewhere with your Assault because you think it is too slow to keep up, and then expecting to get to the fight in time to actually be beneficial with that same too-slow Battlemech... I am deeply skeptical that this might be the optimal solution.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Void Angel, on 04 September 2022 - 01:59 PM, said:

I've done that, in fact. Sometimes it's necessary to move by yourself, even with a large, lumbering vehicle. And that's kind of my point: it's not solely the team's responsibility to limp along with you while ceding tactical strong points to the enemy; there's a reason heat maps of every battlefield cluster around certain terrain features, because those features are important. The implications of the tactical situation require action from the pilot in some aspects, and from the team in others. I think we agree on that.

But when we're talking about literally hiding in a corner somewhere with your Assault because you think it is too slow to keep up, and then expecting to get to the fight in time to actually be beneficial with that same too-slow Battlemech... I am deeply skeptical that this might be the optimal solution.

I think there is a misunderstanding here a little bit. Nascar isn't always necessary and is often more because of lack of trust. Standing your ground doesn't always mean hiding in a corner, sometimes it means standing your ground on perfectly sound points of strong terrain. Sometimes teams unnecessarily give up control of terrain in the hopes of catching someone isolated on a flank or to avoid getting caught out themselves, sometimes both at the same time. Actually, it happens a lot, especially on maps like Canyon where teams rotate to the wrong points of the map for "reasons", typically because they are brawly and don't understand the quickest way to a brawl is to go where the enemy is headed not away from them.

I'm saying it is both at fault honestly. Sometimes you are just the sacrifice because it is the smarter choice to leave you behind, sometimes the team rotates because they are scared to fight lights that might flank.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 04 September 2022 - 04:13 PM.