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8 Years And Still No Aff Mirror


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#21 Abisha

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Posted 12 September 2022 - 11:06 AM

View PostNightbird, on 12 September 2022 - 10:33 AM, said:


The internet is full of free information. Look up the role of CPU and GPU in video games.

The CPU processes what is in a scene, where all the players and objects are. The GPU turns that scene into pixels.

If a scene has 95% of pixels on your monitor from one camera pointing forwards and 5% of pixels from a rear camera, it still processes 100% of all pixels. However the CPU has to process 100% of all objects that belong to the front, and 100% of objects that belongs to the back.

ain't that the idea of Unreal engine to only process what the PoV of the player is?. that's how to gain performance out of the engine in the first place.

to proccess the polygon face only not behind it

Edited by Abisha, 12 September 2022 - 11:08 AM.


#22 Nightbird

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Posted 12 September 2022 - 11:18 AM

View PostAbisha, on 12 September 2022 - 11:06 AM, said:

ain't that the idea of Unreal engine to only process what the PoV of the player is?. that's how to gain performance out of the engine in the first place.

to proccess the polygon face only not behind it


How do you know where that polygon face is? The CPU has to process it first. The GPU can choose to not render it if it not in view, but the location is not determined magically.

Edited by Nightbird, 12 September 2022 - 11:18 AM.


#23 Pixel Hunter

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Posted 12 September 2022 - 06:56 PM

I actually don't mind the lack of rear camera. it rewards situational awareness and punishes bad movement

#24 LordNothing

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Posted 12 September 2022 - 09:30 PM

View PostNightbird, on 12 September 2022 - 10:33 AM, said:


The internet is full of free information. Look up the role of CPU and GPU in video games.

The CPU processes what is in a scene, where all the players and objects are. The GPU turns that scene into pixels.

If a scene has 95% of pixels on your monitor from one camera pointing forwards and 5% of pixels from a rear camera, it still processes 100% of all pixels. However the CPU has to process 100% of all objects that belong to the front, and 100% of objects that belongs to the back.


first of all a lot of that info is grossly out of date. you're talking about the painters algorithm, where you had to waste a lot of time sorting things. then we figured out you can throw memory at the problem, and the z buffer was born. you store the depth of the last pixel you rendered and if you render another pixel in that spot, it checks the depth and if its closer you can replace the pixel. we have long since figured you could throw memory at other problems. in the old days of gpu rendering you only had enough memory for the frame buffer, and so you had to do a lot of stuff cpu side. you really had to micromanage things back then. but now you have several gigabytes of bloody fast vram.

speed comes from having everything ready to go at render time. every pixel, every polygon is sitting in some pre-defined object ready to go. the cpu doesn't have to deal with that stuff. it just tells the gpu the what and where, without having to move any big data. and whats more, you can cache that as an object, send it to gpu and have it take care of it. if you are micro managing privatives (lines, polygons, quads, etc) like in the olen days. or you do a lot of redundant things, like do the whole scene setup twice then its going to be slow. but you dont have to do it that way.

the models, the textures, the worldspace transform for each instance, are there ready to go. you queue up the commands for putting the whole scene into world space, store it in a command list and send it to the gpu. you setup the main viewport and run the list. then you change to the rearview viewpoint, change the pointer from the frame buffer to the render target, and simply run the list a second time. if you instead do the whole process of setting up the scene twice, rather than queue up the redundant bits (and thus only have to do it once), its going to be a performance hit. thats just not the way its done anymore.

View PostNightbird, on 12 September 2022 - 11:18 AM, said:


How do you know where that polygon face is? The CPU has to process it first. The GPU can choose to not render it if it not in view, but the location is not determined magically.


if your cpu has to touch every single polygon (other than packaging and shipping to the gpu at load time), you are doing it wrong. when you want to move rotate and scale an object in the scene, you do it by setting a 4x4 matrix (at least that was the opengl way) and the graphics pipeline does the rest. that puts it in world space. put the data through another matrix to put it into screen space and apply perspective. you just have to say what (with a pointer to a vbo), and where, by specifying a matrix.

the graphics pipeline handles frustum cull and backface cull on the fly. you dont need the cpu to figure that out. if you for some reason need to tweak the polygon data, you are better doing it in the vertex shader.

if were talking physics, you generally use a different data set for that, like privatives like spheres and boxes (aabbs and oriented), convex hulls, etc. a lot less detail. and i believe that in this game that is all handled server side. but rtt is not a physics problem, its a rendering problem.

#25 MrMadguy

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Posted 12 September 2022 - 09:56 PM

View PostNightbird, on 08 September 2022 - 11:32 AM, said:

A rear mirror or camera will cut your FPS in half because the game has to render what's in the front and in the rear instead of just the front.

That been said, a button to switch the entire view to a rear camera would have been nice. It's what another game does to get around the FPS problem.

No. Advanced view - is actually picture in picture with separate rendering. No FPS drop is caused.

#26 Nightbird

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 05:39 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 12 September 2022 - 09:30 PM, said:




You're still describing the GPU pipeline. What does the CPU do? In your description, might as well remove it from the computer?

#27 Nightbird

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 06:01 AM

View PostMrMadguy, on 12 September 2022 - 09:56 PM, said:

No. Advanced view - is actually picture in picture with separate rendering. No FPS drop is caused.


Ok... since there is no FPS drop, what is processing the objects that go in that picture in picture?

#28 LordNothing

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 06:56 AM

View PostNightbird, on 13 September 2022 - 05:39 AM, said:

You're still describing the GPU pipeline. What does the CPU do? In your description, might as well remove it from the computer?


thats kind of the point. the more you can offload to the gpu the less you have to deal with on the cpu. command rate used to be a huge bottleneck. but steps have been taken to reduce the overall number of commands your cpu has to issue. you used to work with privatives and micromanage the gpu. now you work with larger more complicated objects. but thats not to say you cant queue up redundant commands and run them twice on the gpu and the cpu only has to do that once for all displays in the game.

where you used to have to build the scene on the cpu to generate primitive calls, now you can queue it up as an object and send it once. and then run it twice from different perspectives to different render targets, be it a frame buffer or texture. and its drawing it while you are simulating physics and running game code for the next frame.

and yes you do need to issue more commands to set it up, but its really a very small addition to what you already had to do, its certainly not double. and it just becomes a matter of how long it takes for the graphics pipeline to finish the job. it still takes longer to fill more pixels, but its not exactly a game breaker in most use cases.

#29 Nightbird

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 07:06 AM

I understand where you are coming from, you're not talking about how the game engine is, but how it can be ideally. Sure, we can just rebuild the MWO engine from scratch, and then we will have the rearview camera! Easy! :D Until then, this is unfortunately a CPU single-thread limited game.

#30 LordNothing

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 08:39 AM

View PostNightbird, on 13 September 2022 - 07:06 AM, said:

I understand where you are coming from, you're not talking about how the game engine is, but how it can be ideally. Sure, we can just rebuild the MWO engine from scratch, and then we will have the rearview camera! Easy! Posted Image Until then, this is unfortunately a CPU single-thread limited game.


if were really being honest here, the reason this technology is not used very much is because you need a real engine wizard to implement it correctly. most game studios that rent an engine just cannot afford a lead programmer like that. or the engine itself simply does not do it well/at all (cryengine). i doubt its a feature mwo will ever see.

#31 An6ryMan69

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 10:44 AM

I'm not buying the "twice the work" stuff.

If a functional but simple, low-resolution, 2-D rear facing camera, displayed the size of the minimap and functioning like like the minimap, was put into the cockpit, there's no way in hell it could require all the processing power of the main display, and therefore cut speeds in half. Don't forget, a rear facing camera only needs to tell the pilot just what the hell is going on right behind them - not display smoke trails from missiles 1000 meters out like the main display does.

And comments already made about these kinds of games having rear facing cameras literally twenty years ago, and that technology is exponentially more powerful now, are accurate.

Heck, a rear facing view could even be built into the existing minimap display (which is already rendering...) and could be switched from mini-map to rear facing, as an multi-function display, with the push of a button. That should require no more processing than is already going on.

Methinks somebody important who likes backstabs, just doesn't want people to have a rear facing camera. Posted Image

Edited by An6ryMan69, 13 September 2022 - 10:53 AM.


#32 Knownswift

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 01:26 PM

So I guess no one is going to ask the important obvious questions;

What is OP walking into that they can't walk out of? Have they considered exploring zimbabwe from the comfort of the training grounds?

#33 LordNothing

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 02:03 PM

i think the only reason i want one is that all the other mechwarrior games had them. mw2 even had a camera just for dfa. we dont even have dfa.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 September 2022 - 02:04 PM.


#34 Stickbender

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 03:55 PM

Solution = Situational Awareness

#35 caravann

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 10:21 PM


Initiate enhanced imaging.





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