44 replies to this topic

[feeWAIVER]

Brizna, on 20 September 2022 - 04:46 AM, said:

That said powering down disables override, remember to press it again.

You can manually shut down and then override to power back on, so you don't forget.

[Brizna]

@1453

If you like your Marauder build and have fun driving it you are free to do it. But you shouldn't come here and tell everybody it's the best build ever, you didn't. Conversely if you don't like override because to you it is more dangerous than enemy mechs (*) then don't use it but don't come here and tell everybody override sucks. You do things your way, no one is stopping you, but if you provide bad advice according to the vast majority of players you are going to be refuted.

Anyway, this is above all a game, so please have fun any way you like.

(*) Do note that the notion of override being more dangerous than enemy mechs might have some merit in T5 and T4 matches, but I guarantee you that shutting down in a bad spot in T1 and T2 is a recipe for "YOU'VE BEEN DESTROYED" screen.

Edited by Brizna, 20 September 2022 - 05:48 AM.

[1453 R]

Sure. I just feel like maybe occasionally once in a teensy tiny little while, the meta Folks can withstand a challenge or two. And the sheer number of absolute slope-headed smoothbrain nitwits I see commiting Heat Seppuku in my games tells me Override is a 'tool' whose most frequent use is getting its user killed. Games where I don't see some brain-deficient numbskull going "[BrainDeficientNumbskull] has killed [BrainDeficientNumbskull]" are legitimately outnumbered by games where I do see it. People are murdering themselves with Override left, right, sideways and cattywompus, and justifying it by saying "If I get one kill while overriden it was all worth it!"

No. No, you wrinkly-fingered dunderheads, it is not worth it! LIVE THROUGH THE FIGHT, and if you're constantly Override-And-Die blaze-of-(not so)glorying yourself? Stop getting into dumb fights! QUIT FRICKIN' DEPRIVING THE TEAM OF YOUR FUTURE AID BY HEAT SEPPUKU-ING AGAINST THE FIRST GORRAM THING YOU SEE! Even if you're an unarmed stick, you know what an unarmed stick is? A body that can block, and a kill counter the enemy doesn't have. Being alive means the enemy thinks they're doing less well than they are, and that can influence whether they get brave, stop chickendicking and push on you, or whether your team eventually wins the War of Chickenry and carries the day.

Edited by 1453 R, 20 September 2022 - 06:01 AM.

[sosegado]

Seeing all the different responses and reasonings really drives home for me how monumentally steep the learning curve is for this game.

It's like 3D chess except all the pieces move independent of anything resembling centralized cohesive thinking!

Edited by Stab Wound, 20 September 2022 - 06:13 AM.

[Nightbird]

If you have trigger discipline and can control when you go over 100% (when you need to) then always override.

If you don't have trigger discipline then don't override.

Easy...

[Curccu]

Stab Wound, on 19 September 2022 - 01:09 PM, said:

Ok, so let me paint you the scenario for my question:

I'm in a bloodrage in my Dire Wolf. Just in the zone where nothing else matters but attacking my next target. Planning is an afterthought that I barely recognize.

I get a kill but I shutdown due to overheating. I swear out loud to myself that as soon as my mech comes back online I'm hitting override.

It comes back online and I don't hit override. I was in a safe spot somehow because nobody got a shot on me.

I target the next closest mech and kill it and shutdown in overheat just as they die. Same promise, same lack of follow through. Same blind luck shutting down in a safe spot!

This goes on for 5 kills, I wouldn't put the number up but I would love some math wizard to explain to me how much damage I did to my CT having 5 overheat shutdowns versus the damage I could have done by using override constantly(probably ending in suicide)? And does it affect the rear CT when you overheat shutdown also?

I feel very confident that if I didn't overheat and shutdown every time, and instead I used override that I would have kept attacking until I blew up my own mech.

So how does the community feel about override versus overheat?

Do you 'always' use it?

Is it situational?

Is it mech specific for you?

Thoughts?

Always override on.

You can always smash that powerdown button if you see you are going over a lot and you see that it is safe/safer than burning up with heat.

[PurplePuke]

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 05:59 AM, said:

Sure. I just feel like maybe occasionally once in a teensy tiny little while, the meta Folks can withstand a challenge or two. And the sheer number of absolute slope-headed smoothbrain nitwits I see commiting Heat Seppuku in my games tells me Override is a 'tool' whose most frequent use is getting its user killed. Games where I don't see some brain-deficient numbskull going "[BrainDeficientNumbskull] has killed [BrainDeficientNumbskull]" are legitimately outnumbered by games where I do see it. People are murdering themselves with Override left, right, sideways and cattywompus, and justifying it by saying "If I get one kill while overriden it was all worth it!"

No. No, you wrinkly-fingered dunderheads, it is not worth it! LIVE THROUGH THE FIGHT, and if you're constantly Override-And-Die blaze-of-(not so)glorying yourself? Stop getting into dumb fights! QUIT FRICKIN' DEPRIVING THE TEAM OF YOUR FUTURE AID BY HEAT SEPPUKU-ING AGAINST THE FIRST GORRAM THING YOU SEE! Even if you're an unarmed stick, you know what an unarmed stick is? A body that can block, and a kill counter the enemy doesn't have. Being alive means the enemy thinks they're doing less well than they are, and that can influence whether they get brave, stop chickendicking and push on you, or whether your team eventually wins the War of Chickenry and carries the day.

Good Lord are you ever full of yourself.

[Heavy Money]

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 05:59 AM, said:

Sure. I just feel like maybe occasionally once in a teensy tiny little while, the meta Folks can withstand a challenge or two. And the sheer number of absolute slope-headed smoothbrain nitwits I see commiting Heat Seppuku in my games tells me Override is a 'tool' whose most frequent use is getting its user killed. Games where I don't see some brain-deficient numbskull going "[BrainDeficientNumbskull] has killed [BrainDeficientNumbskull]" are legitimately outnumbered by games where I do see it. People are murdering themselves with Override left, right, sideways and cattywompus, and justifying it by saying "If I get one kill while overriden it was all worth it!"

No. No, you wrinkly-fingered dunderheads, it is not worth it! LIVE THROUGH THE FIGHT, and if you're constantly Override-And-Die blaze-of-(not so)glorying yourself? Stop getting into dumb fights! QUIT FRICKIN' DEPRIVING THE TEAM OF YOUR FUTURE AID BY HEAT SEPPUKU-ING AGAINST THE FIRST GORRAM THING YOU SEE! Even if you're an unarmed stick, you know what an unarmed stick is? A body that can block, and a kill counter the enemy doesn't have. Being alive means the enemy thinks they're doing less well than they are, and that can influence whether they get brave, stop chickendicking and push on you, or whether your team eventually wins the War of Chickenry and carries the day.

Most of those instances of heat suicide you see are people who would have died anyway who chose to go nuclear to get another volley or two off first. Which is the correct choice to make.

If people are killing themselves with heat when they are not check mated, then sure that's dumb. But that's not that common. If you get pushed and you're going down, get a couple of extra volleys in so that your team mates can finish the job. That's better than maybe wandering around as a stick.

Also, I suggest you try a MAD-5M build like one of these as similar playstyle to what you've posted, but better:
https://mwo.nav-alph...713c150d_MAD-5M
https://mwo.nav-alph...b0572afa_MAD-5M

Edited by Heavy Money, 20 September 2022 - 08:47 AM.

[1453 R]

Perhaps. Perhaps I simply enjoy a bombastic presentation. And perhaps people should realize that Override is a nasty double-edged blade that cuts the user every single time it's used. Every single time you go over 100% heat using Override, you take damage you didn't have to. Everybody remembers those games where their primary armament is cherry-red, hanging on by a thread, and yet they manage to score a kill with guns that by all rights should've been blowen off. Had they overriden from the start and taken a bunch of random chip damage they didn't need to, those guns would've died instead.

Have people also scored kills they otherwise would not have by utilizing Override to force a shot they otherwise couldn't have taken to finish off a wounded, fleeing foe? Absolutely. Do Ultracomps use Override because shutting down against an Ultracomp is a guaranteed headshot waiting to happen? Also absolutely. Do far too many Quickplay Puglandians smash the Override button at the start of the match, never think about it again, blaze away without a care in the world, melt half their own internal structure every fight, die like idiots because they did half the enemy's work for them even when they don't commit Heat Seppuku, and never properly learn how to handle their heat because all the Ultracomps always say "SMASH THAT OVERRIDE AND NEVER LOOK BACK!"

Also 'absolutely'.

Override is a sword that kills its wielder. Smart people use it sparingly, even if they say "ALWAYS OVERRIDE". They 'always Override' but do their utmost to never need to lean on it. The freakin' meme goblins in the Puglandia mosh pit do no such thing, and I'm utterly sick of watching people assume that melting fifty points off their own internals is "worth it" if it means securing a kill their teammates would've totally cleaned up for them within the next ten seconds anyways.

[Heavy Money]

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 08:45 AM, said:

Perhaps. Perhaps I simply enjoy a bombastic presentation. And perhaps people should realize that Override is a nasty double-edged blade that cuts the user every single time it's used. Every single time you go over 100% heat using Override, you take damage you didn't have to. Everybody remembers those games where their primary armament is cherry-red, hanging on by a thread, and yet they manage to score a kill with guns that by all rights should've been blowen off. Had they overriden from the start and taken a bunch of random chip damage they didn't need to, those guns would've died instead.

Have people also scored kills they otherwise would not have by utilizing Override to force a shot they otherwise couldn't have taken to finish off a wounded, fleeing foe? Absolutely. Do Ultracomps use Override because shutting down against an Ultracomp is a guaranteed headshot waiting to happen? Also absolutely. Do far too many Quickplay Puglandians smash the Override button at the start of the match, never think about it again, blaze away without a care in the world, melt half their own internal structure every fight, die like idiots because they did half the enemy's work for them even when they don't commit Heat Seppuku, and never properly learn how to handle their heat because all the Ultracomps always say "SMASH THAT OVERRIDE AND NEVER LOOK BACK!"

Also 'absolutely'.

Override is a sword that kills its wielder. Smart people use it sparingly, even if they say "ALWAYS OVERRIDE". They 'always Override' but do their utmost to never need to lean on it. The freakin' meme goblins in the Puglandia mosh pit do no such thing, and I'm utterly sick of watching people assume that melting fifty points off their own internals is "worth it" if it means securing a kill their teammates would've totally cleaned up for them within the next ten seconds anyways.

I think I probably burn off ~50% of my EBJs structure every match riding the heat line. Its a lot of extra damage. But you would probably dismiss me as an ultra comp, whatever that means.

Lower skill players mess up their overriding, sure. Instead of not using it, they should practice and learn to use it well.

Once your armor is gone, structure doesn't keep you alive that long anyway (at least, not in any matchup that matters.) Use your structure to deal more damage sooner and kill the enemy. The best defense is a good offense.

[Curccu]

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 08:45 AM, said:

Perhaps. Perhaps I simply enjoy a bombastic presentation. And perhaps people should realize that Override is a nasty double-edged blade that cuts the user every single time it's used.

Override itself doesn't do anything, going over 100% in heat does.

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 08:45 AM, said:

Every single time you go over 100% heat using Override, you take damage you didn't have to.

Nope, only way not to take damage because of overheat is not going over 100%.

If you choose not to override and go over 100% you shutdown... you are totally defenseless and helpless for a while even worst of the pilots can pick their shot and not miss that component that they are going for... That legendary flamer & SPL headshot nova build was working purely because of this, people shutdowned and their head got popped after that.
If that shot of your that heated you over 100% didn't kill the enemy, has now chance to do for example full laser burn straight into your CT, do XL check, remove your leg? That is usually many times worse damage than taking that 1 or 2 ticks of overheat while you can get into cover and roll shots that you are still taking.

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 08:45 AM, said:

Do Ultracomps use Override because shutting down against an Ultracomp is a guaranteed headshot waiting to happen? Also absolutely.

Absolutely almost never, nah headshots are super rare even in those conditions unless mechs are very close to each other. But enemy will dumb all damage to your CT and you are basically dead if not dead.

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 08:45 AM, said:

Do far too many Quickplay Puglandians smash the Override button at the start of the match, never think about it again, blaze away without a care in the world, melt half their own internal structure every fight, die like idiots because they did half the enemy's work for them even when they don't commit Heat Seppuku, and never properly learn how to handle their heat because all the Ultracomps always say "SMASH THAT OVERRIDE AND NEVER LOOK BACK!"

Smash that override and be aware of your heatcap go over if it looks like good thing to do. But no it doesn't mean you can ignore the heat, heat awareness is one of the most important skills this game has.

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 08:45 AM, said:

Also 'absolutely'.

Override is a sword that kills its wielder. Smart people use it sparingly, even if they say "ALWAYS OVERRIDE". They 'always Override' but do their utmost to never need to lean on it. The freakin' meme goblins in the Puglandia mosh pit do no such thing, and I'm utterly sick of watching people assume that melting fifty points off their own internals is "worth it" if it means securing a kill their teammates would've totally cleaned up for them within the next ten seconds anyways.

Smart people doesn't use override sparingly they go over 100% sparingly

And hell yes if you know you are going to die in next 5-10 seconds you will smash that override (if it is not on already for some weird reason) yell to comms "WITNESS ME!" and do as much damage that is possible to enemy team before they take you down or you burn ot death... That rises rest of your teams chances to win, which I think you can agree is a good thing?

Edited by Curccu, 20 September 2022 - 10:01 AM.

[CFC Conky]

Imo, if you want to ride the heat scale effectively, you need to run in override.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[1453 R]

Sigh.

Infinite Heat Seppuku it is. Suppose I really should've known better, forum threads never change anything. Piranha may as well just eliminate the shutdown mechanic from the game, kill the Quick Ignition nodes, and just force the issue. Why bother? If the whole damn game's convinced Heat Seppuku is the move of a galaxy-brain grandmaster tactician and Kai Allard-Liao-level superpilot, just turn shutdowns off. Go MechWarrior 4 style, infinite ammo no heat. Blegh.

[Curccu]

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 10:32 AM, said:

Sigh.

Infinite Heat Seppuku it is. Suppose I really should've known better, forum threads never change anything. Piranha may as well just eliminate the shutdown mechanic from the game, kill the Quick Ignition nodes, and just force the issue. Why bother? If the whole damn game's convinced Heat Seppuku is the move of a galaxy-brain grandmaster tactician and Kai Allard-Liao-level superpilot, just turn shutdowns off. Go MechWarrior 4 style, infinite ammo no heat. Blegh.

Wrong heat seppuku is only good when you know you are dead anyways.
But override AND good heat management (sometimes it involves shutting down MANUALLY) is the best way to take least of the useless damage.

Edited by Curccu, 20 September 2022 - 10:51 AM.

[Heavy Money]

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 10:32 AM, said:

Sigh.

Infinite Heat Seppuku it is. Suppose I really should've known better, forum threads never change anything. Piranha may as well just eliminate the shutdown mechanic from the game, kill the Quick Ignition nodes, and just force the issue. Why bother? If the whole damn game's convinced Heat Seppuku is the move of a galaxy-brain grandmaster tactician and Kai Allard-Liao-level superpilot, just turn shutdowns off. Go MechWarrior 4 style, infinite ammo no heat. Blegh.

Stop acting like its a matter of Heat Seppuku vs not. Its a matter of properly using Override to get out extra damage when appropriate. Heat Seppuku is what happens when people mess that up, or know they are dead in seconds anyway and go nuclear to deal some extra damage first.

Nothing is being changed because your presentation of what is going on in wrong. The game is not a mystery. There isn't some big secret mechanical advantage to figure out. High tier players use override as I have described. This is part of the reason they are high tier.

Edited by Heavy Money, 20 September 2022 - 10:53 AM.

[1453 R]

Yes. And the more high-tier players say "always override, never shut down, taking structure damage is always better than letting a kill go", the more the braindead meme goblins in not-tier-1 will override at match start, blaze dozens of points past their heat cap, and murder themselves in seconds the first time they see a Wolfhound poking their noodle at eight hundred meters.

Notice that not one single soul elaborated on why or how to use override until I started making a fuss; they just said "Always override, 100% of the time, there's never a good reason not to." That's all the Braindead Meme Goblins hear. They don't hear "you can't ignore your heat bar just because you're overridden", they don't hear "use override to go beyond 100% sparingly, when you need to in order to make a key kill". The only thing they hear is "never turn your override off" and assume that's because they're supposed to burn themselves into briquettes to secure a kill three-point-seven seconds faster than that kill would've otherwise happened.

Ultracomps say "well duh, obviously don't kill yourselves pointlessly!", without ever remembering that people who aren't Ultracomps have a lot of difficulty telling when they need to "go nuclear" or whether they need to be sparing. Remember last Championship tournament, that one goober who recruited everybody he could to his team and then posted a forty-minute YouTube video savaging and disparaging the Quickplay Puglandia randos he'd recruited for not knowing "common sense" structuired competitive play terminology, tactics, and methods? Yeah. Same deal. I can trust Ultracomps to know what Override is for and how to use it. I absolutely cannot trust Braindead Meme Goblins to do the same. For BMGs, there are only two choices - turn your goddamned override off or commit Heat Seppuku.

[Heavy Money]

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 11:08 AM, said:

Notice that not one single soul elaborated on why or how to use override until I started making a fuss; they just said "Always override, 100% of the time, there's never a good reason not to."

3rd post in the thread:

Heavy Money, on 19 September 2022 - 01:54 PM, said:

Always turn it on. Manually shut down when needed.

People aren't as much of a caricature as you are making out. They aren't just holding down the button until they're dead in any significant amount. They are messing up and dying, yes. But its not because they are so brain dead they just don't know. They do not need some advanced instruction or theory, they need practice.

If people are as dumb as you describe, giving detailed instructions about when exactly to go above 100% and not is not going to help them either.

The situation is very simple: Everyone should learn to make the most of Override, which means turn it on and learn to monitor your heat and shut down as needed. The process to learning that is messing up and exploding a fair amount of times. Also, if you think you can't escape anyway, then do as much damage as you can before you die.

You're just being overly hyperbolic about it all. Which I don't mind, but it isn't good advice for people, lol. You're making it seem like there is some big divide about if you should be using Override or not. And there isn't. There is complete consensus about what is most effective if people do it properly.

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 11:08 AM, said:

Ultracomps say "well duh, obviously don't kill yourselves pointlessly!", without ever remembering that people who aren't Ultracomps have a lot of difficulty telling when they need to "go nuclear" or whether they need to be sparing. Remember last Championship tournament, that one goober who recruited everybody he could to his team and then posted a forty-minute YouTube video savaging and disparaging the Quickplay Puglandia randos he'd recruited for not knowing "common sense" structuired competitive play terminology, tactics, and methods? Yeah. Same deal. I can trust Ultracomps to know what Override is for and how to use it. I absolutely cannot trust Braindead Meme Goblins to do the same. For BMGs, there are only two choices - turn your goddamned override off or commit Heat Seppuku.

That incident is an embarrassment because the person who did that doesn't understand the game all that well either. They repeatedly ignored the advice of "ultracomps" they brought in to train them and their team, taught their people alternate tactics that they theorized would be better, then lost constantly and chose to blame the people they had trained wrong instead of taking responsibility.

That person was not an "ultracomp." Which is a silly term. Tons of people manage their heat properly who do not play competitively. Lots of people mess it up in the heat of the moment and explode, but ~90% of those are people who were about to die anyway and it makes no difference. So stop insulting everyone.

"You're all too stupid to learn to play the game properly. So stop trying and leave override on" is a dumb stance to take. Its the kind of thing I'd expect to hear from some arrogant "ultracomp" who thinks they are better than everyone else.

Edited by Heavy Money, 20 September 2022 - 12:47 PM.

[1453 R]

Again: I have never once - not once - in the entire history of my playing this game seen someone choose to deliberately shut down to vent heat. Not since my recent return to the game, and not in the years I played it before then when I was higher tier and saw a wider swath of play. Not one single time, in every match I've observed, have I seen someone with their Override on decide "Okay, mission accomplished, time to preserve my 'Mech" and choose to manually shut down. It is always (Over)Ride or Die, and if they live through the liquefaction of their internals then hey - bonus.

You act like Meme Goblin Heat Seppuku is a rare and isolated incident. Maybe it is for you guys up in T1. Must be nice. I see it in six or seven games out of ten down here in the gutters. Some nights it's closer to nine games out of ten.

Yes, it'd be fantastic if I could trust everybody to use Override responsibly, but my direct observation of the game has shown me that I cannot do that. If I see someone with their Override on go above 100% heat, even just by a hair or two? The most common response, by far, is the "F@#$ IT WE'RE DOING THIS" response, i.e. all logic, reason, and heat management is thrown out the window in favor of a final berserker murder frenzy because their structure is already cooking and they've already given themselves up for dead. Even when it's not even slightly warranted. I've seen people go into WITNESS ME mode when they could've easily escaped a bad fight, or when they'd already won, but Override spooked them so they decided to throw themselves flaming balls first into the next fight and die even when they had absolutely no reason whatsoever to do that thing.

I have seen some of the most inexplicable Heat Seppuku nonsense when observing other players, and it's why I tell people that if they can't tell the north end of the heat bar from the south they're not allowed to touch their Override button until they can demonstrate basic sanity. I would vastly rather Puglandians be forced to take combat naps, and maybe slow their roll for five seconds and let their reinforcements catch up, than watch them continue to cook off like an MG cache under a napalm strike.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

the forced shutdown is nice and all while you get used to the game. seriously nothing wrong with it.

-however-
once you get into situations where you later realise
"an override might have saved my life right here"
-tinker with it. turn it off and learn to use your mechs without the safety.

more often than not, that "safety" is a deathtrap, and learning to ride the heatscale effectively (read: without safety) leads to BOTH more kills AND less lives lost.


learning to watch/read the heatbar and understanding what you can/can't do is a heck of a useful skill in mwo, and one that everybody should try to develop. it's not that hard, but rewarding.

[Heavy Money]

1453 R, on 20 September 2022 - 01:33 PM, said:

Again: I have never once - not once - in the entire history of my playing this game seen someone choose to deliberately shut down to vent heat. Not since my recent return to the game, and not in the years I played it before then when I was higher tier and saw a wider swath of play. Not one single time, in every match I've observed, have I seen someone with their Override on decide "Okay, mission accomplished, time to preserve my 'Mech" and choose to manually shut down. It is always (Over)Ride or Die, and if they live through the liquefaction of their internals then hey - bonus.

You act like Meme Goblin Heat Seppuku is a rare and isolated incident. Maybe it is for you guys up in T1. Must be nice. I see it in six or seven games out of ten down here in the gutters. Some nights it's closer to nine games out of ten.

Yes, it'd be fantastic if I could trust everybody to use Override responsibly, but my direct observation of the game has shown me that I cannot do that. If I see someone with their Override on go above 100% heat, even just by a hair or two? The most common response, by far, is the "F@#$ IT WE'RE DOING THIS" response, i.e. all logic, reason, and heat management is thrown out the window in favor of a final berserker murder frenzy because their structure is already cooking and they've already given themselves up for dead. Even when it's not even slightly warranted. I've seen people go into WITNESS ME mode when they could've easily escaped a bad fight, or when they'd already won, but Override spooked them so they decided to throw themselves flaming balls first into the next fight and die even when they had absolutely no reason whatsoever to do that thing.

I have seen some of the most inexplicable Heat Seppuku nonsense when observing other players, and it's why I tell people that if they can't tell the north end of the heat bar from the south they're not allowed to touch their Override button until they can demonstrate basic sanity. I would vastly rather Puglandians be forced to take combat naps, and maybe slow their roll for five seconds and let their reinforcements catch up, than watch them continue to cook off like an MG cache under a napalm strike.

People could do tactical shutdowns around you all the time and you wouldn't know. Or coolshot while going over 100% heat. You aren't spectating everyone all the time.

I spent plenty of time in the lower tiers, and still often see mixed matches. You are exaggerating.