21 replies to this topic

[Fu Sun]

I think the last event, similar to faction play and where in one scenario you had to use only one type of mech, is a good idea. I don't know if one-on-one Solaris type stuff is ever coming back, but I think new stuff like challenging players to use only certain mechs or deal with limitations makes play more interesting.

The only complaint I really heard about that is those games did not count toward Tier level. I think a lot of people love trying to improve their tier, so any future similar event should give people a tier bonus if they perform above average.

Variety is the spice of life.

[pbiggz]

I expect there are technical reasons for PSR not being recorded in event queues, but I couldn't say that for certain. I've been away for a bit but event queues seem like almost exactly what the game needed.

As to your other point, this is why I don't like tier being visible. You are making a mistake that everything about the PSR system seems designed to trick you into making. Tiers are not a reward, they're a metric for finding you matches where you have a fighting chance and are not certain to be completely trashed. That's it.

The problem is not only can you see Tiers, but they make T5 a blue badge. They make T1 a GOLD badge! Gold is nice. I want gold! I'm in T3, my badge isbrown. Gross! Everything about the presentation makes your tier look like a reward. But here's the kicker. Its not a reward; and if you find a way to surge above your appropriate tier, if anything it becomes a punishment.

If you are legitimately a t5 player, you don't want to be in Tier 1. Your matches will be absolute trash. A legitimate t5 player belongs in t5. The matches will go at their pace. They will have fun there. They will be able to compete and experiment to their heart's content without being plastered by people who are way better at clicking bad robots and way better at winning the mechlab game. But, as long as its visible, people treat it like a reward, and often talk about how reductions in PSR make them feel as though they are being punished.

Functionally, PSR is really not bad, it could stand to have maybe 7 tiers instead of 5, but granularity comes at the cost of slower match times. The main issues with PSR are entirely centered around presentation; chiefly, that it's presented to the end user at all, and that in presenting it to the end user, it's presented like a reward.

Edited by pbiggz, 03 October 2022 - 07:43 AM.

[I am a Robot]

pbiggz, on 03 October 2022 - 07:43 AM, said:

I expect there are technical reasons for PSR not being recorded in event queues, but I couldn't say that for certain. I've been away for a bit but event queues seem like almost exactly what the game needed.

As to your other point, this is why I don't like tier being visible. You are making a mistake that everything about the PSR system seems designed to trick you into making. Tiers are not a reward, they're a metric for finding you matches where you have a fighting chance and are not certain to be completely trashed. That's it.

The problem is not only can you see Tiers, but they make T5 a blue badge. They make T1 a GOLD badge! Gold is nice. I want gold! I'm in T3, my badge isbrown. Gross! Everything about the presentation makes your tier look like a reward. But here's the kicker. Its not a reward; and if you find a way to surge above your appropriate tier, if anything it becomes a punishment.

If you are legitimately a t5 player, you don't want to be in Tier 1. Your matches will be absolute trash. A legitimate t5 player belongs in t5. The matches will go at their pace. They will have fun there. They will be able to compete and experiment to their heart's content without being plastered by people who are way better at clicking bad robots and way better at winning the mechlab game. But, as long as its visible, people treat it like a reward, and often talk about how reductions in PSR make them feel as though they are being punished.

Functionally, PSR is really not bad, it could stand to have maybe 7 tiers instead of 5, but granularity comes at the cost of slower match times. The main issues with PSR are entirely centered around presentation; chiefly, that it's presented to the end user at all, and that in presenting it to the end user, it's presented like a reward.

Well said

It is human nature for players to see the Tier system as the carrot on the stick. The thing in the game to grind toward. Myself, I ignore it and just play to play for fun.

[martian]

pbiggz, on 03 October 2022 - 07:43 AM, said:

I don't like tier being visible.

If someone gives me some advice regarding 'Mech loadout, tactics, spending MCs or C-Bills, what to do or what to avoid in the game, etc.,
for me it is good to know if that advice comes from somebody with badge or with badge.

[pbiggz]

martian, on 03 October 2022 - 09:09 AM, said:

If someone gives me some advice regarding 'Mech loadout, tactics, spending MCs or C-Bills, what to do or what to avoid in the game, etc.,
for me it is good to know if that advice comes from somebody with badge or with badge.

I get that, and don't exactly disagree, but I've seen my share of T1s who clearly don't understand why they're in t1, and t5s who are really just t1s who log in 3 times a year so they don't have enough matches to advance, so even then, its not a hard and fast rule.

Before we had listed PSR tiers on the forum, people just listened to you if you proved you had a good head on your shoulders. The cauldron guys for instance are all fairly reputable, even if you disagree with them sometimes. Public listed tier or not, you kinda know they know what they're talking about.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Fu Sun, on 03 October 2022 - 07:05 AM, said:

The only complaint I really heard about that is those games did not count toward Tier level. I think a lot of people love trying to improve their tier, so any future similar event should give people a tier bonus if they perform above average.

Event queue was specifically designed not to change PSR because the rule set within event queue could be anything. Even though an event might be serious and would be appropriate to change PSR on, it could also be crazy and wacky and wouldn't be appropriate to change PSR on. I doubt PGI will change their decision on this--it was an intentional decision when they made it.

[martian]

pbiggz, on 03 October 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

I've seen my share of T1s who clearly don't understand why they're in t1,

If they are in Tier 1, then they deserve the T1 badge. Period. This is how the Tier system works.

pbiggz, on 03 October 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

and t5s who are really just t1s

As long as they are in Tier 5, then they are T5s. Period.

No Ifs and whens, no amount of excuses and reasons can change that. No "If I would like to ...." or "If I would have the time, I could ..."

If they want to show that they are "t5s who are really just t1s", they must actually move to Tier 1.

pbiggz, on 03 October 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

who log in 3 times a year so they don't have enough matches to advance, so even then, its not a hard and fast rule.

This is not the anyone else's problem, but theirs.

I really laugh when some armchair generals with hidden Tier come to the forums and attempt to discuss the game they do not actually play.

They last played the game many months ago and that was just a few games a month, and the time when they played the game frequently (like a hundred drops a month) counts in years.

pbiggz, on 03 October 2022 - 09:56 AM, said:

Before we had listed PSR tiers on the forum, people just listened to you if you proved you had a good head on your shoulders. The cauldron guys for instance are all fairly reputable, even if you disagree with them sometimes. Public listed tier or not, you kinda know they know what they're talking about.

And you do not have to spend hours on the forums, trying to persuade people on the forums to "prove" how good understanding of the game you have. You just show your Tier badge and everyone can read your words, see your Tier and make his own conclusion. Is not that much easier?

Edited by martian, 04 October 2022 - 08:31 AM.

[ccrider]

Hahaha God, this game is dead and you are sitting here tier shaming? FFS, if anyone here were pro gamers you'd be playing a real game with actual population and skilled opponents. This is the refuge of people who read too many Michael Stackpole books or played some MW in like 1996 and figured, "**** it, I'm a robot shooter guy now, till the end of time." Lets not get into dong measuring contests, were supposed to be mature gamers, not Xbox live kids with premature gray hair. Opinions are opinions whether someone is tier 1 or 5 or who gives a **** cause ain't none of us getting a pro career out of waving blue lasers or spamming snubbies. Everyone here is just an Al Bundy, clinging to those Polk High football days and hoping people won't realize that we aren't a viable market for game companies anymore.

[pbiggz]

martian, on 03 October 2022 - 09:05 PM, said:

If they are in Tier 1, then they deserve the T1 badge. Period. This is how the Tier system works.

No not really. Skill is an abstract concept, what performance metrics are being measured are themselves abstractions.

martian, on 03 October 2022 - 09:05 PM, said:

As long as they are in Tier 5, then they are T5s. Period.

No Ifs and whens, no amount of excuses and reasons can change that. No "If I would like to ...." or "If I would have the time, I could ..."

If they want to show that they are "t5s who are really just t1s", they must actually move to Tier 1.



This is not the anyone else's problem, but theirs.

I really laugh when some armchair generals with hidden Tier come to the forums and attempt to discuss the game they do not actually play.

They last played the game many months ago and that was just a few games a month, and the time when they played the game frequently (like a hundred drops a month) counts in years.



And you do not have to spend hours on the forums, trying to persuade people on the forums to "prove" how good understanding of the game you have. You just show your Tier badge and everyone can read your words, see your Tier and make his own conclusion. Is not that much easier?

If the forum badge people wear influences how you actually treat people then that's a personal problem. Listen to what people actually have to say, don't just turn your critical faculties off because they're sub-t3.

[feeWAIVER]

Fu Sun, on 03 October 2022 - 07:05 AM, said:

The only complaint I really heard about that is those games did not count toward Tier level. I think a lot of people love trying to improve their tier, so any future similar event should give people a tier bonus if they perform above average.

Variety is the spice of life.

As far as I know, they aren't matching based on Tier level either. Meaning tier 5's can be grouped with Tier 1's, and anything in between... which oddly, seems to create really fun games for all involved.

Agreed, variety is the spice of life.

[martian]

pbiggz, on 04 October 2022 - 04:49 PM, said:

No not really. Skill is an abstract concept, what performance metrics are being measured are themselves abstractions.

No.

This is not a discussion about "some abstract concept of skill", this is discussion about the Tiers how they are set in MWO.

Any T5 player (or any other Tier player) can demonstrate his level in the actual game and move to T1 if he feels that he belongs there. Any "t5s who are really just t1s who log in 3 times a year" are free to do that.

The PGI's computer is absolutely impartial.

pbiggz, on 04 October 2022 - 04:49 PM, said:

If the forum badge people wear influences how you actually treat people then that's a personal problem. Listen to what people actually have to say, don't just turn your critical faculties off because they're sub-t3.

If two players tell me what do or what to avoid in the game and both offer conflicting advices - one is a top T1 player who plays the game often, and the other one is a T5 player staying in Tier 5 or a no-Tier player who plays the game infrequently or not at all - then I can guess who is probably right and who is probably wrong.

The player who has repeatedly demonstrated his competence in the game against other top players is probably right and his advice is often worth thinking about.

[pbiggz]

martian, on 05 October 2022 - 08:25 AM, said:

No.

This is not a discussion about "some abstract concept of skill", this is discussion about the Tiers how they are set in MWO.

Any T5 player (or any other Tier player) can demonstrate his level in the actual game and move to T1 if he feels that he belongs there. Any "t5s who are really just t1s who log in 3 times a year" are free to do that.

The PGI's computer is absolutely impartial.

If you are measuring how seriously you take people based on what badge they wear on the forum then it is indeed a discussion about skill as an abstract concept.

martian, on 05 October 2022 - 08:25 AM, said:

If two players tell me what do or what to avoid in the game and both offer conflicting advices - one is a top T1 player who plays the game often, and the other one is a T5 player staying in Tier 5 or a no-Tier player who plays the game infrequently or not at all - then I can guess who is probably right and who is probably wrong.

The player who has repeatedly demonstrated his competence in the game against other top players is probably right and his advice is often worth thinking about.

And the person who is high tier isn't always going to be the person who is more competent. Tier isn't just an abstraction of skill, its also an abstraction of activity and people who are really good at clicking bad robots aren't always spending hours each day playing this game. That's a fact, not up for debate.

Edited by pbiggz, 05 October 2022 - 11:13 AM.

[martian]

pbiggz, on 05 October 2022 - 11:13 AM, said:

If you are measuring how seriously you take people based on what badge they wear on the forum then it is indeed a discussion about skill as an abstract concept.

Who has got better understanding of tactics? T5 or T1?
Who has got better situational awareness? T5 or T1?
Who has got better piloting or gunnery skills? T5 or T1?
Who has got better functional map knowledge? T5 or T1?
Who has got better knack for finding tactically relevant positions? T5 or T1?
etc.

Yes, when it comes to some discussion about some aspect of the MWO game mechanics, I consider the Tier to be a quite useful tool:

• There are some excellent T1 players on this forums who offer extremely valuable insights into the game.
  
• There are some very skilled T2 players on this forums who know how to play this game and who often make very good points.
  
• There are some very solid T3 players on this forums who come with useful remarks and findings.
  
• I am grateful for lower Tiers players when they share their perspective of the game.

If those players actually play this game, I think that everything is okay and I consider their opinion relevant, even though I do not always agree with them.

pbiggz, on 05 October 2022 - 11:13 AM, said:

And the person who is high tier isn't always going to be the person who is more competent.

Every MWO player is exactly in the Tier that he actually is, as indicated in his Mechlab or in his profile.

pbiggz, on 05 October 2022 - 11:13 AM, said:

Tier isn't just an abstraction of skill, its also an abstraction of activity and people who are really good at clicking bad robots aren't always spending hours each day playing this game. That's a fact, not up for debate.

Sorry, this just does not work anymore.

The great Tier reset happened in July 2020. Now we are in October 2022.

If somebody is still in some lower Tier (like that T5 that you mentioned) after more than 2 years ... then he is exactly that. A player in the lowest Tier with a few games played many months ago.

Does he want to discuss 'Mechs that he has not piloted for years or that he has never piloted or at least faced in the battle?
Does he want to discuss quirks and weapons that he has not experienced for years or maybe never?
Does he want to discuss maps that has never fought on (or maybe one or two games, if at all)?

He can do this all and I will note his opinion, but personally I will be more interested in the opinion of the players who are active in MWO and who actually play this game often enough to make it their routine experience.

[pbiggz]

martian, on 05 October 2022 - 12:32 PM, said:

Who has got better understanding of tactics? T5 or T1?
Who has got better situational awareness? T5 or T1?
Who has got better piloting or gunnery skills? T5 or T1?
Who has got better functional map knowledge? T5 or T1?
Who has got better knack for finding tactically relevant positions? T5 or T1?
etc.

You are welcome to speak in generalities if you wish, but in general, generalities are terrible.

martian, on 05 October 2022 - 12:32 PM, said:

Yes, when it comes to some discussion about some aspect of the MWO game mechanics, I consider the Tier to be a quite useful tool:

You do you boo. But every time you quibble about tier you prove me right. The badge should not be visible. Its a matchmaking tool, not an excuse for you to dismiss people cause their forum badge wasn't the right shade of yellow.

martian, on 05 October 2022 - 12:32 PM, said:

• There are some excellent T1 players on this forums who offer extremely valuable insights into the game.
  
• There are some very skilled T2 players on this forums who know how to play this game and who often make very good points.
  
• There are some very solid T3 players on this forums who come with useful remarks and findings.
  
• I am grateful for lower Tiers players when they share their perspective of the game.

If those players actually play this game, I think that everything is okay and I consider their opinion relevant, even though I do not always agree with them.

Typically people don't undermine their own argument when they're trying to convince people, but again, you do you.

martian, on 05 October 2022 - 12:32 PM, said:

Sorry, this just does not work anymore.

The great Tier reset happened in July 2020. Now we are in October 2022.

If somebody is still in some lower Tier (like that T5 that you mentioned) after more than 2 years ... then he is exactly that. A player in the lowest Tier with a few games played many months ago.

Does he want to discuss 'Mechs that he has not piloted for years or that he has never piloted or at least faced in the battle?
Does he want to discuss quirks and weapons that he has not experienced for years or maybe never?
Does he want to discuss maps that has never fought on (or maybe one or two games, if at all)?

He can do this all and I will note his opinion, but personally I will be more interested in the opinion of the players who are active in MWO and who actually play this game often enough to make it their routine experience.

I literally know people who play on and off, maybe a few games every few months at best. They are some of the best shots i've ever seen, but they burnt themselves out on comp MWO in 2013-2014 and haven't been interested in playing the game consistently since. One of the best players in my old company sits in t4 because he doesn't play more than 3 times a year.

Im not particularly interested in arguing further. I believe I've made my point. You're choosing to disregard it.

[martian]

pbiggz, on 05 October 2022 - 03:42 PM, said:

You are welcome to speak in generalities if you wish, but in general, generalities are terrible.

You have not answered those questions.

pbiggz, on 05 October 2022 - 03:42 PM, said:

You do you boo. But every time you quibble about tier you prove me right. The badge should not be visible. Its a matchmaking tool, not an excuse for you to dismiss people cause their forum badge wasn't the right shade of yellow.

One thing can have multiple uses. And for me, it is a useful tool. I have described, why.

pbiggz, on 05 October 2022 - 03:42 PM, said:

Typically people don't undermine their own argument when they're trying to convince people, but again, you do you.

Thanks for your valuable reply.

pbiggz, on 05 October 2022 - 03:42 PM, said:

I literally know people who play on and off, maybe a few games every few months at best. They are some of the best shots i've ever seen, but they burnt themselves out on comp MWO in 2013-2014 and haven't been interested in playing the game consistently since. One of the best players in my old company sits in t4 because he doesn't play more than 3 times a year.

Im not particularly interested in arguing further. I believe I've made my point. You're choosing to disregard it.

A player, who sits in T5 or T4 and does not play the game for all practical purposes, is T5 or T4, i.e. exactly where the impartial PGI's computer placed him, based on his in-game accomplishments. He can check it in his Mechlab or in his profile. This is the fact. It is objective and independently verifiable.

Of course, you can consider him to be "t5s who are really just t1s" or "One of the best players in my old company". This is your personal opinion.

My opinion is that some non-playing player's past glories from 2013 (or any other year) count little for me when discussing the current shape of MechWarrior Online. Today many 'Mechs are different or new, 'Mech stats are different, quirks are different, many maps are different or new, etc. When it comes to discussing the game as it is now, I appreciate the opinion of players who actually play this game actively and frequently now more than the opinion of those who played it many months or years ago.

Edited by martian, 05 October 2022 - 09:14 PM.

[Curccu]

martian, on 05 October 2022 - 08:57 PM, said:

Of course, you can consider him to be "t5s who are really just t1s" or "One of the best players in my old company". This is your personal opinion.

My opinion is that some non-playing player's past glories from 2013 (or any other year) count little for me when discussing the current shape of MechWarrior Online. Today many 'Mechs are different or new, 'Mech stats are different, quirks are different, many maps are different or new, etc. When it comes to discussing the game as it is now, I appreciate the opinion of players who actually play this game actively and frequently now more than the opinion of those who played it many months or years ago.

There is also comp and FP, those who play those might not play a lot or almost any QP, but when they do they perform excellent one example of that kind of players.
https://leaderboard....d+Goes+DA+FASTA
With games after I think T4 or T3 but performs better than 99% of T1s

[Hunka Junk]

I 100% support having events where you use all the garbage mechs I bought in 3-mech mechpacks in the middle of last decade.

Edited by Hunka Junk, 05 October 2022 - 11:35 PM.

[martian]

Curccu, on 05 October 2022 - 11:31 PM, said:

There is also comp and FP, those who play those might not play a lot or almost any QP, but when they do they perform excellent one example of that kind of players.
https://leaderboard....d+Goes+DA+FASTA
With games after I think T4 or T3 but performs better than 99% of T1s

Sure, but this player actively plays the game and knows the current shape of the game. Not the same case as "t5s who are really just t1s who log in 3 times a year".

Hunka Junk, on 05 October 2022 - 11:35 PM, said:

I 100% support having events where you use all the garbage mechs I bought in 3-mech mechpacks in the middle of last decade.

Yeah, some 'Mechs are rarely seen in MWO.

But I think that having the entire day dedicated to just one 'Mech chassis is too much.

[pbiggz]

I've made my point several times, I'm not interested in listening to you nuance troll.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i think to many people consentrate on their Tier or the tiers of others. look at me, i'm a solid Tier 3 player, maybe upper Tier 3 but i couldn't give two shits. hell if i played so called "meta" builds i could very likely get to T2 but that **** is boring as all hell. people just need to play the game and have fun, don't bother even looking at your Tier number or that of anyone else. i have run into some really stupid T1 players here on the forums who think they know everything just because they have a multi thousand dollar gaming pc, use macros, and play nothing but meta but never come up with any build idea themselves and cry about how they are always dying to LRM fire (bring AMS if you don't know how to avoid it). go cry me a river and **** off. now on the flip side i have run into some actually helpful players of all tiers. the only real purpose of tier is so the MM can group hopefully equally skilled players together so that they can have more evenly matched games. what about someone like me who has a handicap (i have hand tremors so pinpoint is never going to work for me) but really enjoy the game and know a great many things about it and universe.

back to the OP though i did enjoy the event and love the new (or rather reworked old) map. as for 1v1 events hell know keep that **** in the cesspool of meta try hard crybabies that is solaris. i honestly would love to play Faction again but found it to toxic of an environment to be worth my time. going against constant comp 12 mans and getting stomped all the time is not my idea of fun. i also liked the fact that the Event que didn't count towards tier (didn't know that at all until you mentioned it). since the game mode often adds odd things like Unlimited jump juice and restrictions of mech class or even chassis.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 06 October 2022 - 09:14 PM.