121 replies to this topic

[JediPanther]

I can name only two builds on IS lights that can one shot an assault BUT...

1. They are one-time-one alpha-shot.
2. Require a TON of player incompetence of the enemy team to even get into their very very short range.
3. Are useless after their one-shot-alpha being pretty much a free kill.
3. Must use IS XL aka Insta-Death-Engine.

Clan lights of course don't have these lame IS problems and can easily get 40-80 alphas.

[ScrapIron Prime]

JediPanther, on 11 October 2022 - 12:35 PM, said:

I can name only two builds on IS lights that can one shot an assault BUT...

The more realistic target is doing 60 points of damage to a rear torso in under 3 seconds... 30 and 30. That will strip the side torso off a Dire Wolf or an Annihilator easily. That just takes 6 medium lasers or 8 small pulse.

[Meep Meep]

ScrapIron Prime, on 11 October 2022 - 12:51 PM, said:

The more realistic target is doing 60 points of damage to a rear torso in under 3 seconds... 30 and 30. That will strip the side torso off a Dire Wolf or an Annihilator easily. That just takes 6 medium lasers or 8 small pulse.

But dires are a clan mech so torso destruction won't kill them and most annies are running either light or standard engines. You need waaay more than 60 points to kill them with a rear ct strike especially now that most are both armor and structure boosted from skills. I know because my flea is having a bit harder time with the rear armor ct sneaky sneak kills.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Meep Meep, on 11 October 2022 - 01:06 PM, said:

But dires are a clan mech so torso destruction won't kill them and most annies are running either light or standard engines. You need waaay more than 60 points to kill them with a rear ct strike especially now that most are both armor and structure boosted from skills. I know because my flea is having a bit harder time with the rear armor ct sneaky sneak kills.

True, but when I'm piloting a light I have to have realistic goals.

Taking off a side torso slows them, partly de-fangs them, and might even shut them down from a heat spike (allowing me to take the other side next).

[Meep Meep]

ScrapIron Prime, on 11 October 2022 - 04:25 PM, said:

True, but when I'm piloting a light I have to have realistic goals.

Taking off a side torso slows them, partly de-fangs them, and might even shut them down from a heat spike (allowing me to take the other side next).

I target the rear ct because in tier 1 you don't get often more than a shot or two before the escort starts hunting you down or they spin around and go defensive so I try to make every one count. This way when they get to the direct fight when their front armor goes they are already almost dead. But of course thats vs a fresh mech and mid to late game choice of booty hunting location will depend on how beat up they are on what I target.

[pbiggz]

My brothers in Christ,

shoot the light mechs.

[Whamhammer]

I see that the whole point has been danced around....

"I am curious as to what the mindset is for the dev's to build light mechs with 12-15 hardpoints, and allow them to have lightweight, low/no heat, extreme short cycle time, with high speed and extremely small hitboxes and surface area to hit."

I drive all four weight classes, last I checked, I still had more instances of using lights over the other three classes. (have been leveling a bunch of mechs, so it may have changed). The problem that I have is with the combination of very high number of weapons points, extremely short cycle time for weapons (and little ghost heat or similar penalty), extremely small hitboxes and size of mechs to hit, and very high speed/maneuverability. There are no downsides to using them.

- Range of weapons - Speed and terrain, and small size/hitboxes help make up for this, not to forget the very short cycle time and low to no ghost heat or other penalties.
- Low damage - Large volume of weapons mounted, very short cycle times, combined with size, speed of mech, low no ghost heat or other penalties make up for this
- Low armor/structure - Very small hitboxes and size, along with speed make up for this

When there is dozen small weapons with short cycle times and no/little ghost heat penalties, the same amount of crit space all other mechs, endosteel/ferro fibrous exacts less of a penalty, especially when most of the hardpoints are in the torsos. Mechs like the Pirahna can lose both arms and still have most of it weapons and remain combat effective. At least the Crusader 6T has 12 out of 14 hard points in its arms, a real risk of losing combat effectiveness.

All I am asking is to cut back on the stupid high volume of weapons on some the mechs or have some real penalty for weapons spam (more ghost heat. lower ROF for machine guns, etc).

[PsionicMantis]

As far as I am aware, almost all the mech hardpoints are to lore specs. Piranha is a Pgi original, so thats on them for hardpoint inflation (I have been corrected, Thanks Scrap!). The only 2 downsides i can think of for such mechs, is: A. Required facetime, and B. Low armor and structure.

Edited by PsionicMantis, 12 October 2022 - 01:54 PM.

[ScrapIron Prime]

PsionicMantis, on 12 October 2022 - 01:14 PM, said:

As far as I am aware, almost all the mech hardpoints are to lore specs. Piranha is a Pgi original, so thats on them for hardpoint inflation. The only 2 downsides i can think of for such mechs, is: A. Required facetime, and B. Low armor and structure.

Incorrect. The Piranha 1, 2, and 3 are lore, from Invading Clans and 3058 Tech Readout. All those godawful numbers of hardpoints are directly from ye olde boardgame. (They're just not OP there because of rolling dice to hit.)

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Piranha

[PsionicMantis]

Oh damn, didnt know that. I suppose i have some reading to do

[Whamhammer]

PsionicMantis, on 12 October 2022 - 01:14 PM, said:

As far as I am aware, almost all the mech hardpoints are to lore specs. Piranha is a Pgi original, so thats on them for hardpoint inflation (I have been corrected, Thanks Scrap!). The only 2 downsides i can think of for such mechs, is: A. Required facetime, and B. Low armor and structure.

The Pirahna, on tabletop, is nowhere near as dangerous as it is in this game; machine guns and the lighter lasers have been boosted to an insane level. High quantity, high rate of fire/cyclic weapons have become far more dangerous than a pair of AC20's, high speed and small chassis and insanely smaller hitboxes, alongside weaker hit logic/sampling amplifies it even more so.

The Light Mechs are choosing when and just about where to engage, and when to disengage

I could see it if the cyclic rate/effective DPS was throttled down for the smaller/lighter weapons. In 9 seconds of fire, a Large IS) is capable of doing 18 damage, and 4 Small Lasers(IS) are capable of doing 45 damage, even if a mech missed a volley, the Small Lasers do 30 damage/ Five Clan MG's (plus .5T ammo) does 5 DPS for 45 damage as well, it keeps adding up, and getting worse, when 12-15 small weapons are introduced. The lack of heat penalties make it to shooting outside of optimal is rewarding as well and let's not talk about volume of fire benefits with critting.

Let's face it, the way things are set up, the incentive is to run faster, smaller, mechs with hit ROF smaller weapons.

All I want is to balance things out more, it will even make other lights, and mediums viable as well. It would also bring in more of the aspect of scouting for lighter mechs, and minimize faster murderballs that bleed off the slowest of the herd.

[a Mech Named Slickback]

Maybe lights aren't OP, perhaps certain pilots just need a buff.
Just a thought

[Meep Meep]

a Mech Named Slickback, on 12 October 2022 - 02:51 PM, said:

Maybe lights aren't OP, perhaps certain pilots just need a buff.
Just a thought

This is the real rub. Most lights I see in a match don't do very well but there is always that one that gets 500~1000 damage and multiple kills.

[Krashbox]

A good player in a light is a deadly combination. However, such a player in any size mech is deadly. If lights are so OP wouldn't we all be piloting them and knocking out Heavies and Assaults in five minutes? I've always figure it's up to the fast mediums and lights to help protect their Heavy and Assault teammates when enemy lights show up. Too often I've notice everyone runs off and leaves them behind.

I personally like using their weapons against them and cram as many micro-lasers on a Nova or Stormcrow with one or four longer range weapons to be useful. I also like using snubnose ppcs but it's a steep learning curve to hit with them.

Being a crappy player, I've learned and enjoyed spectating light pilots doing their thing.

P.S. The snubnose ppc may be OP since I seem to do well with them and I'm a really crappy player.

[sosegado]

Whamhammer, on 12 October 2022 - 12:50 PM, said:

I see that the whole point has been danced around....

"I am curious as to what the mindset is for the dev's to build light mechs with 12-15 hardpoints, and allow them to have lightweight, low/no heat, extreme short cycle time, with high speed and extremely small hitboxes and surface area to hit."

I thought it was because light mechs are required to do the same amount of damage as the other 3 classes in order to get enough match score to generate upward mobility in Tiers?

That's not why?

Edited by Stab Wound, 12 October 2022 - 05:02 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

I love threads like these.

First off this is a click bait thread, just looking at the profile of the OP proves that. however at face value, folks who post threads like this, have no idea what its like to play a light mech in this era of PPFLD.

[Curccu]

PsionicMantis, on 12 October 2022 - 01:14 PM, said:

As far as I am aware, almost all the mech hardpoints are to lore specs. Piranha is a Pgi original, so thats on them for hardpoint inflation (I have been corrected, Thanks Scrap!). The only 2 downsides i can think of for such mechs, is: A. Required facetime, and B. Low armor and structure.

Range? Cockpit field of view?

Whamhammer, on 12 October 2022 - 02:45 PM, said:

High quantity, high rate of fire/cyclic weapons have become far more dangerous than a pair of AC20's, high speed and small chassis and insanely smaller hitboxes, alongside weaker hit logic/sampling amplifies it even more so.

How do you like your chances against Boomjager in Piranha?

[Meep Meep]

Curccu, on 13 October 2022 - 12:14 AM, said:

How do you like your chances against Boomjager in Piranha?

Before the skill tree redo where it was rare to have a full armor and structure tree? If you got in close enough with a buzzsaw build you could typically rear ct core them before they could react especially if they are already distracted. Now? Suicide unless you are wolf packing.

But after the lmg changes and other balance tweaks this is working quite the charm at harassing isolated mechs to death.

SniPir

[Curccu]

Meep Meep, on 13 October 2022 - 12:51 AM, said:

Before the skill tree redo where it was rare to have a full armor and structure tree? If you got in close enough with a buzzsaw build you could typically rear ct core them before they could react especially if they are already distracted. Now? Suicide unless you are wolf packing.

But after the lmg changes and other balance tweaks this is working quite the charm at harassing isolated mechs to death.

SniPir

I'd prefer now

But yes isolated fattie with that kind of loadout is.... stupid player for being isolated? And it can be taken down with twin ERML spider or pretty much any light that has enough weapon reach so it doesn't have to come close to it with enough time.

[Meep Meep]

Curccu, on 13 October 2022 - 02:52 AM, said:

But yes isolated fattie with that kind of loadout is.... stupid player for being isolated?

Welcome to quick play?

But its also great to meld in with the murderball and pewpew away. Those 8 lmg have more dps than a rac2 with none of the drawbacks with a 400m+ optimal and fairly tight spread at that range. Basically laser hitscan.