Hello everyone, I had a question or two about missiles, or specifically, Long Range Missiles.
See, I've been playing for a while now, and I understand how LRMS work; target a mech that is either being targeted by a team mate, or in your direct line of sight, and let them fly at the target once you got a solid lock. You get a couple things that help you speed up locks, and keep your target locked for a few seconds after it breaks line of sight, either yours or your team mate's, but here's the crux of my question: Why am I still getting LRMs knocking me around, even if I pop up for just a second?
See, it's been bugging me for a while now, but whenever I poke out for a mere moment, it seems the enemy LRM boat has my number in a fraction of a second, and I get that inglorious warning message telling me I'm about to have a rainy day, but I can't understand the how or why.
I get that there are things like tag, narc, and skill nodes that help, but we're talking 1 second to 2 seconds of being in an enemy's line of sight, not specifically the LRM mech on the enemy team's line of sight, then retreating behind cover only to get LRMs coming towards me some 2 to 3 seconds later, well after I've been behind cover.
I know, I know, "You're probably being tracked by a different enemy mech you don't see, or you weren't as well hidden as you thought you were," But we're talking a single enemy mech that sees me, and my entire mech is being hidden behind a wall or mountain, here.
So, really, what I want to know is: Does something like lag/server latency affect how long you stay locked on radar?
Because I am telling you, whenever I try to get a lock on an enemy mech, even with all the bells and whistles needed, it still takes me a good 3 or 4 seconds without direct line of sight, tag, or narc.
The only thing that makes sense is that maybe my ping is causing my information to be delayed, and the game still thinks I'm in line of sight. Or something.
My ping is around 50 to 60 regularly, so I wouldn't think that was the case, but I honestly don't know anymore.
I'm not even mad, just so confused as to why this happens to me.
Any insights you could share would be appreciated. Have a wonderful day, Mech Warriors!
2
11 replies to this topic
#2
-
-
- Ace Of Spades
- 7,880 posts
Member
Posted 19 November 2022 - 07:50 PM
Banders, on 19 November 2022 - 04:07 PM, said:
I know, I know, "You're probably being tracked by a different enemy mech you don't see, or you weren't as well hidden as you thought you were," But we're talking a single enemy mech that sees me, and my entire mech is being hidden behind a wall or mountain, here.
You're probably being tracked by a different enemy mech you don't see, or you weren't as well hidden as you thought you were.
Banders, on 19 November 2022 - 04:07 PM, said:
Because I am telling you, whenever I try to get a lock on an enemy mech, even with all the bells and whistles needed, it still takes me a good 3 or 4 seconds without direct line of sight, tag, or narc.
Maybe some players are better with LRMs than you are.
#3
-
- Bad Company
- 9 posts
Rookie
Posted 19 November 2022 - 09:12 PM
I am aware of this, I know I'm not great at the game, but that's not the issue I'm talking about here, my guy.
I'm looking for some insight into an issue that's been bothering me for some time, now.
I'm looking for some insight into an issue that's been bothering me for some time, now.
#4
-
-
- Ace Of Spades
- 7,880 posts
Member
Posted 19 November 2022 - 10:05 PM
Banders, on 19 November 2022 - 09:12 PM, said:
I am aware of this, I know I'm not great at the game, but that's not the issue I'm talking about here, my guy.
You have explicitly excluded all "natural" game explanations:
Banders, on 19 November 2022 - 04:07 PM, said:
See, I've been playing for a while now, and I understand how LRMS work; target a mech that is either being targeted by a team mate, or in your direct line of sight, and let them fly at the target once you got a solid lock. You get a couple things that help you speed up locks, and keep your target locked for a few seconds after it breaks line of sight, either yours or your team mate's
...
I get that there are things like tag, narc, and skill nodes that help
...
I know, I know, "You're probably being tracked by a different enemy mech you don't see, or you weren't as well hidden as you thought you were," But we're talking a single enemy mech that sees me, and my entire mech is being hidden behind a wall or mountain, here.
...
I get that there are things like tag, narc, and skill nodes that help
...
I know, I know, "You're probably being tracked by a different enemy mech you don't see, or you weren't as well hidden as you thought you were," But we're talking a single enemy mech that sees me, and my entire mech is being hidden behind a wall or mountain, here.
So after you eliminated TAG, NARC, BAP, UAV, Skill nodes, direct targeting, enemy spotters for indirect fire, not being as covered as you think, etc. as possible explanations ...
For example here: "we're talking a single enemy mech that sees me"
I think that it was quite possible that there was some ECM Flea or Locust or any other tiny light 'Mech (or any other enemy 'Mech) peeking from behind some corner.
#5
-
- Bad Company
- 9 posts
Rookie
Posted 19 November 2022 - 10:33 PM
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about, so maybe you can see where I'm coming from.
So, just in recent memory of an instance of when this happened to me, I was on Hibernal Rift, over by C5 in my Shadowcat-C hiding behind the miniature volcano on the ridge-line.
I poked my head up from behind the volcano to fire my guns at a single enemy mech standing in D3, E3.
All of his friends were down in D3, C3 moving up the ramp, and fighting off my team mates that started rotating into their rear arcs.
He turns, looks at me, and as he's firing his lasers, I'm already on my way back behind the hill.
He scrapes my paint a little bit, but just barely.
The entire exchange couldn't have been more than three seconds, and he couldn't have been locked on to me for more than 2 of those.
He had no missiles, only Extra Range Mediums.
I am fully concealed, my team mates are standing next to me, at least 3 of them, with no low signals, or UAVs above us, and no one has been NARCed the whole game so far.
As I'm going passive for two second or three seconds waiting for one of my team mates to gain agro, I get the alert of incoming missiles.
I jump down to the lower plateau to make absolutely certain I broke any line of sight, but a second volley comes chasing me down.
All the while I have no enemy lights near me, and team mates right next to me who are more exposed to direct line of sight than I am.
The second volley manages to miss me, but only just barely by no more than 20 meters, so if it was a light keeping me locked, that second volley would have hit me square on.
The only thing I can think of that might explain this issue I have with latent missiles, is that my laptop's performance isn't high enough to keep up with the game, and so what I'm seeing on my end isn't what the game is seeing on the server's end.
I wanted to know if there have been any document cases of one's lag, or poor performing hardware if the case may be, that causes someone to remain locked like I seem to.
I also noticed just this last match ago using my own LRMs, that I suffered issues with frame drops that caused my lock-on-time to take longer than it should have, even with direct line of sight, and tag on the enemy target.
So, just in recent memory of an instance of when this happened to me, I was on Hibernal Rift, over by C5 in my Shadowcat-C hiding behind the miniature volcano on the ridge-line.
I poked my head up from behind the volcano to fire my guns at a single enemy mech standing in D3, E3.
All of his friends were down in D3, C3 moving up the ramp, and fighting off my team mates that started rotating into their rear arcs.
He turns, looks at me, and as he's firing his lasers, I'm already on my way back behind the hill.
He scrapes my paint a little bit, but just barely.
The entire exchange couldn't have been more than three seconds, and he couldn't have been locked on to me for more than 2 of those.
He had no missiles, only Extra Range Mediums.
I am fully concealed, my team mates are standing next to me, at least 3 of them, with no low signals, or UAVs above us, and no one has been NARCed the whole game so far.
As I'm going passive for two second or three seconds waiting for one of my team mates to gain agro, I get the alert of incoming missiles.
I jump down to the lower plateau to make absolutely certain I broke any line of sight, but a second volley comes chasing me down.
All the while I have no enemy lights near me, and team mates right next to me who are more exposed to direct line of sight than I am.
The second volley manages to miss me, but only just barely by no more than 20 meters, so if it was a light keeping me locked, that second volley would have hit me square on.
The only thing I can think of that might explain this issue I have with latent missiles, is that my laptop's performance isn't high enough to keep up with the game, and so what I'm seeing on my end isn't what the game is seeing on the server's end.
I wanted to know if there have been any document cases of one's lag, or poor performing hardware if the case may be, that causes someone to remain locked like I seem to.
I also noticed just this last match ago using my own LRMs, that I suffered issues with frame drops that caused my lock-on-time to take longer than it should have, even with direct line of sight, and tag on the enemy target.
#6
-
-
- 84 posts
Member
Posted 20 November 2022 - 12:28 AM
Let me put some info out there for your help, if you can’t be bothered than skip to TL:DR:
First, let's define:
Soft Target Lock = When you just lock onto a fresh enemy target. Here your lock breaks the instant you break LOS on the target.
Hard Target Lock = When you get full targeting info on a fresh enemy target. Here your lock breaks after about 2.5 seconds after you break LOS on the target, regardless of range excluding radar dep and target decay modifiers.
Second, here are some facts no one can argue against:
Missile alert stays on until the missiles that are fired at you while you are locked on ALL disappear. This means that even if lock-on missiles are fired at you, and then lock breaks 0.1 seconds later, you still get the full duration of missile alert.
Server latency plays a factor:*1
First, shots that hit you have about a 1 second lag. If you get shot just after you torso twist and you get hit in the components you are supposed to conceal, That is not because of hitbox glitches but because the server (i.e. what actually happened) picks up that you actually got shot BEFORE you twisted.
Sometimes, you get an information delay between 0 to 1.5 seconds depending on the difference between you, the host, and other players' ping.
As a whole, you could get a delay of up to 2.5 seconds AFTER the enemy actually fires their missiles. Similarly, missile alert may stay on for about 2 seconds when it should not.
ECM does nothing versus missile lock-on, after getting missile lock-on. It only disables the ability for concealed players to get locked on, assuming no PPCs, TAG, etc. and increases IDF lock-on time by double the original duration.*2
If you get TAG’d you ALWAYS stay on enemy radar for 1 second after you stop being tagged. Target decay only kicks in after the fact. So even if you expose a pixel to TAG, you might invite a cloud of missile fire.
Now here is what I know about missile lock:
Missile lock takes between 1 to 8 seconds to lock onto targets (always 1 second for direct fire as of now).
Missile lock breaks instantly if your aim is over 60 degrees off the target. Otherwise it breaks after about 2 seconds if you don’t have your crosshair directly in the target box.
It only breaks while aiming at the target, if the enemy is NOT on your radar (e.g. ECM, Terrain) or you suffer the low signal effect.
Regarding targeting (related to breaking missile locks):
If you have MAX radar dep, you instantly break target lock if its requirements are met.
This means that if you get tagged, even if you are behind cover missiles can still lock onto you 1 second after breaking LOS.
If you have NO radar dep and enemy has MAX target decay, target lock can last for up to 5.5 seconds (6.5 with quirks). So if you break LOS, you can still be subject to a whopping 6.5 seconds of missile fire, if you get tagged. Even without tag, you can be subject to 5.5 seconds of missile fire even with ECM concealment.*3
What I know about your situation:
You are fully ECM concealed, you have no enemies or UAV close to you.
You have been exposed for a long time (probably about 5 seconds) based on what you said.
Given your position on Hibernal Rift and what you said, you are likely 350 to 1000 meters away from possible enemy IDF mechs. Therefore, IDF should take between 2 to 6.5 seconds to reach you.
Given your position, it is possible that an enemy can target you normally while you were exposed. Nothing suggests that an enemy can't still tag you while you were backing off.
So:
TL:DR:
Easy. If you have no radar dep, you COULD be on enemy radar for up to 5.5 seconds after exposing for a second.
Even with radar dep and ECM, if you get tagged on even a pixel of your mech, enemies can still lock on and fire at you during the 2 second window you are on the radar (missile lock-on is ALWAYS 1 second if you are tagged). In other words you WILL be on enemy radar during this small time window.
Server lag does not affect how long you stay locked on or being targeted, but it DOES affect the TIMING of lock-on.
Server-side, you could get locked-on and fired at by missiles, but you may not get warning until after about 3 seconds. Likewise, the warning may still appear 3 seconds after it should not.
Also, take into account flight time of IDF.
And the fact that most QP players go berserk and focus fire on ECM mechs if they expose themselves and are targeted, in my experience.
Footnotes:
*1 This happens in any MMO shooter that has existed. You see the same thing in CS where you die instantly to rifles even after concealing completely, or WoWS where you may take massive damage from a single shell to the superstructure (smokestacks and stuff above your ship’s deck), because server-side you actually got citadeled.
*2 This is why I don’t get why people say ECM is a counter for LRMs.
It improves concealment, but it can be countered by TAG or NARC.
*3 And people wonder why some complain so much about IDF. Not that it can’t be avoided.
*4 You can test all my arguments in Testing Grounds or in QP. I doubt you can contradict them though; I try my best to speak from facts.
Hope this helps!
First, let's define:
Soft Target Lock = When you just lock onto a fresh enemy target. Here your lock breaks the instant you break LOS on the target.
Hard Target Lock = When you get full targeting info on a fresh enemy target. Here your lock breaks after about 2.5 seconds after you break LOS on the target, regardless of range excluding radar dep and target decay modifiers.
Second, here are some facts no one can argue against:
Missile alert stays on until the missiles that are fired at you while you are locked on ALL disappear. This means that even if lock-on missiles are fired at you, and then lock breaks 0.1 seconds later, you still get the full duration of missile alert.
Server latency plays a factor:*1
First, shots that hit you have about a 1 second lag. If you get shot just after you torso twist and you get hit in the components you are supposed to conceal, That is not because of hitbox glitches but because the server (i.e. what actually happened) picks up that you actually got shot BEFORE you twisted.
Sometimes, you get an information delay between 0 to 1.5 seconds depending on the difference between you, the host, and other players' ping.
As a whole, you could get a delay of up to 2.5 seconds AFTER the enemy actually fires their missiles. Similarly, missile alert may stay on for about 2 seconds when it should not.
ECM does nothing versus missile lock-on, after getting missile lock-on. It only disables the ability for concealed players to get locked on, assuming no PPCs, TAG, etc. and increases IDF lock-on time by double the original duration.*2
If you get TAG’d you ALWAYS stay on enemy radar for 1 second after you stop being tagged. Target decay only kicks in after the fact. So even if you expose a pixel to TAG, you might invite a cloud of missile fire.
Now here is what I know about missile lock:
Missile lock takes between 1 to 8 seconds to lock onto targets (always 1 second for direct fire as of now).
Missile lock breaks instantly if your aim is over 60 degrees off the target. Otherwise it breaks after about 2 seconds if you don’t have your crosshair directly in the target box.
It only breaks while aiming at the target, if the enemy is NOT on your radar (e.g. ECM, Terrain) or you suffer the low signal effect.
Regarding targeting (related to breaking missile locks):
If you have MAX radar dep, you instantly break target lock if its requirements are met.
This means that if you get tagged, even if you are behind cover missiles can still lock onto you 1 second after breaking LOS.
If you have NO radar dep and enemy has MAX target decay, target lock can last for up to 5.5 seconds (6.5 with quirks). So if you break LOS, you can still be subject to a whopping 6.5 seconds of missile fire, if you get tagged. Even without tag, you can be subject to 5.5 seconds of missile fire even with ECM concealment.*3
What I know about your situation:
You are fully ECM concealed, you have no enemies or UAV close to you.
You have been exposed for a long time (probably about 5 seconds) based on what you said.
Given your position on Hibernal Rift and what you said, you are likely 350 to 1000 meters away from possible enemy IDF mechs. Therefore, IDF should take between 2 to 6.5 seconds to reach you.
Given your position, it is possible that an enemy can target you normally while you were exposed. Nothing suggests that an enemy can't still tag you while you were backing off.
So:
TL:DR:
Banders, on 19 November 2022 - 04:07 PM, said:
Why am I still getting LRMs knocking me around, even if I pop up for just a second?
Easy. If you have no radar dep, you COULD be on enemy radar for up to 5.5 seconds after exposing for a second.
Even with radar dep and ECM, if you get tagged on even a pixel of your mech, enemies can still lock on and fire at you during the 2 second window you are on the radar (missile lock-on is ALWAYS 1 second if you are tagged). In other words you WILL be on enemy radar during this small time window.
Banders, on 19 November 2022 - 04:07 PM, said:
Does something like lag/server latency affect how long you stay locked on radar?
Server lag does not affect how long you stay locked on or being targeted, but it DOES affect the TIMING of lock-on.
Server-side, you could get locked-on and fired at by missiles, but you may not get warning until after about 3 seconds. Likewise, the warning may still appear 3 seconds after it should not.
Also, take into account flight time of IDF.
And the fact that most QP players go berserk and focus fire on ECM mechs if they expose themselves and are targeted, in my experience.
Footnotes:
*1 This happens in any MMO shooter that has existed. You see the same thing in CS where you die instantly to rifles even after concealing completely, or WoWS where you may take massive damage from a single shell to the superstructure (smokestacks and stuff above your ship’s deck), because server-side you actually got citadeled.
*2 This is why I don’t get why people say ECM is a counter for LRMs.
It improves concealment, but it can be countered by TAG or NARC.*3 And people wonder why some complain so much about IDF. Not that it can’t be avoided.
*4 You can test all my arguments in Testing Grounds or in QP. I doubt you can contradict them though; I try my best to speak from facts.
Hope this helps!
#7
-
- Bad Company
- 9 posts
Rookie
Posted 20 November 2022 - 09:01 AM
Very informative, thank you very much.
#8
-
-
- Ace Of Spades
- 1,179 posts
Member
Posted 20 November 2022 - 11:26 AM
And dont forget u get locks faster closer to the target and in line of sight etc.
And never forget about sneaky uavs
And never forget about sneaky uavs
Edited by Ignatius Audene, 20 November 2022 - 11:27 AM.
#9
-
-
- The Marauder
- 6,616 posts
Member
- LocationParanoiaville
Posted 20 November 2022 - 01:12 PM
On a related note, I recommend at least one point in Radar Deprivation for all builds - the chirp and flash that tells you when the enemy team has lost targeting data on you is invaluable.
#10
-
-
- The Mercenary
- 4,703 posts
Member
- LocationPoland
Posted 20 November 2022 - 03:12 PM
Banders, on 19 November 2022 - 04:07 PM, said:
See, it's been bugging me for a while now, but whenever I poke out for a mere moment, it seems the enemy LRM boat has my number in a fraction of a second, and I get that inglorious warning message telling me I'm about to have a rainy day, but I can't understand the how or why.
Try putting 100% Radar Deprivation on your mech.
#11
-
-
- Star Captain
- 402 posts
Member
Posted 20 November 2022 - 04:09 PM
YUP Horseman has it right --- thing is you have seperate TARGET and the LOCK, you reman JOEs target until he targets some else.
LETS SAY HORSEMAN --- is a very good pilot, i see him on the other team, i have LRMs knowing---- he can kill anyone he wants----- if i can hit my R KEY and see his name, i can lock on-- i can keep him target, clan mechs can do that, and if anyone else R keyed him i can lock on him soon as he BREAKS COVER.
ITS just like RABBIT hunting, my dog smelled you and barked, i look wait to fire, and see you in the open, if my 3 other hunters hear and look. HOPE you understand you get TARGETED, you stay targeted, hiding helps, break cover the guys with GEAR and guns find you.
SAWK CLANNER
LETS SAY HORSEMAN --- is a very good pilot, i see him on the other team, i have LRMs knowing---- he can kill anyone he wants----- if i can hit my R KEY and see his name, i can lock on-- i can keep him target, clan mechs can do that, and if anyone else R keyed him i can lock on him soon as he BREAKS COVER.
ITS just like RABBIT hunting, my dog smelled you and barked, i look wait to fire, and see you in the open, if my 3 other hunters hear and look. HOPE you understand you get TARGETED, you stay targeted, hiding helps, break cover the guys with GEAR and guns find you.
SAWK CLANNER
#12
-
-
- The Marauder
- 6,616 posts
Member
- LocationParanoiaville
Posted 20 November 2022 - 05:20 PM
CrimsonPhantom6sg062, on 20 November 2022 - 12:28 AM, said:
Server latency plays a factor:*1
First, shots that hit you have about a 1 second lag. If you get shot just after you torso twist and you get hit in the components you are supposed to conceal, That is not because of hitbox glitches but because the server (i.e. what actually happened) picks up that you actually got shot BEFORE you twisted.
Sometimes, you get an information delay between 0 to 1.5 seconds depending on the difference between you, the host, and other players' ping.
Spoiler
I'm not sure what you mean by shots having a 1-second lag, though. When I shoot at someone, the data takes half my ping to get to the server, and half his ping to get to him - plus a few ms for server processing (not sure what MWO's processing time is likely to be.) My games vary between 95 and 160 ping; normally it's on the low end, but let's take the average of 128ms. Since I have no idea how long it takes MWO's servers to calculate hits and send client commands, I'm just assuming 20ms as a fudge factor. Then this will be the sequence of events for my shot feedback against a player of equal ping:
- Shot fired; data sent to server(64ms)
- server determines a hit(?20ms)
- data sent to target and back to me (64ms)
- Total lag: 148ms, assuming I'm guessing right about server processing time.
- Enemy shoots at me; data sent to server (125ms)
- server determines a hit(?20ms)
- Data sent to me and back to shooter (64ms)
- Total latency: 209ms
*=adding in the shooter's aiming time isn't important here, because we're only concerned with information transmission time, and movement between the time the shooter fires and target-side hit notification.
1 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users
