93 replies to this topic

[ScrapIron Prime]

Lajur Kas, on 17 January 2023 - 01:57 PM, said:

What part of the NGNG interview or the DevLog has caused you to start ringing the alarm bell about pay to win?

Probably the bit about Legendary Mechs. Hardpoints and "outlier quirks" are unknowns right now.

[SafeScanner]

for the legend mechs maybe a unique module instead of a quirk like the cyclops instead of sensors range its a targeting data buff or a auto tag maybe a BAP that can counter better and further away and a better masc.

aside from legendary would like to see some light mechs clan and is something like a firefly or clan locust.

[Gasboy]

Meep Meep, on 11 January 2023 - 04:18 AM, said:

Catch 22.

80% drop in revenue means very little game development because what are they going to pay the workers with and still have enough left over for keeping the servers turned on. Why do you think they resorted to volunteer cauldron for balance? Afaik none of them are getting paid. We are well and truly in maintenance mode unless cash starts to flow again. This is why I was putting forward ideas that require minimal effort to implement.

Sounds like poor planning, as if there wasn't any though put towards QoL, and plans for sequels, or what to do if they continue to secure the license to the IP.

Like how the province of Alberta has gone nearly bust a few times, after having oil-rich boom years.

Where'd the money go?

[Meep Meep]

Gasboy, on 19 January 2023 - 08:53 AM, said:

Where'd the money go?

Solaris 7? That was the huge boondoggle risk they took to try to get into the twitch esports scene and it backfired spectacularly draining off a major portion of their profits for a massive loss. Thats the point the games development took a nosedive because they got a case the 'fraidy cats on doing anything past a few new maps and mech packs since the money flow was dropping off sharply afterwards. If it wasn't for the fact we have a pretty hard core loyal base and certain devs still want it to live this game would have been shut down ~years~ ago.

This is my point in that if you still play the game then toss a little money at it each month. There isn't a single person who plays this game at this point that can't afford to drop $7 for the smallest mc pack on it in a single month. Yeah we can gripe and grumble about past mistakes and what we want in the future but ~THERE WILL BE NO FUTURE~ if they go under.

It's as simple as that.

[sycocys]

Meep Meep, on 19 January 2023 - 02:30 PM, said:

This is my point in that if you still play the game then toss a little money at it each month. There isn't a single person who plays this game at this point that can't afford to drop $7 for the smallest mc pack on it in a single month. Yeah we can gripe and grumble about past mistakes and what we want in the future but ~THERE WILL BE NO FUTURE~ if they go under.

It's as simple as that.

If they want more money from me for this game they need to develop it so I'm not dropping in the same mode every time I hit launch. I feel like I've spent far (FAR) more than enough that even without spending another dollar that shouldn't be an unreasonable request.

If they want me to consider spending that kind of money again, they need to develop network code for the MW5 core engine and shift us all over there. They have several modes and procedural maps as well as halfway decent pre-made maps already setup - YAML made this mechlab slightly better other than the complete removal of sized hardpoints to match this (and added in ammo switching).
They could straight integrate it alongside the single/co-op games and allow you to transfer things into the pvp mode for MC cost. And/or have things that are exclusive to the single player games that can be transferred/unlocked for additional use in pvp - cross promotion of your own games instead of segregation.

End of the day though your right, It's as simple as that, they haven't done much of anything to develop this game since beta. If they want to make more money on it then its time for them to put in some work to actually earn it.

Edited by sycocys, 19 January 2023 - 03:03 PM.

[Meep Meep]

sycocys, on 19 January 2023 - 03:02 PM, said:

If they want more money from me for this game they need to develop it so I'm not dropping in the same mode every time I hit launch. I feel like I've spent far (FAR) more than enough that even without spending another dollar that shouldn't be an unreasonable request.

If they want me to consider spending that kind of money again, they need to develop network code for the MW5 core engine and shift us all over there. They have several modes and procedural maps as well as halfway decent pre-made maps already setup - YAML made this mechlab slightly better other than the complete removal of sized hardpoints to match this (and added in ammo switching).
They could straight integrate it alongside the single/co-op games and allow you to transfer things into the pvp mode for MC cost. And/or have things that are exclusive to the single player games that can be transferred/unlocked for additional use in pvp - cross promotion of your own games instead of segregation.

End of the day though your right, It's as simple as that, they haven't done much of anything to develop this game since beta. If they want to make more money on it then its time for them to put in some work to actually earn it.

Yet none of that is possible if they don't get enough funding. It's the classic catch 22.

Would it really hurt you to drop $7 a month on a game you play regularly to ensure it sticks around and gets further development? I get the emotions behind your opinion but again at this point its either pay ~something~ or watch the game get shut down much sooner than later. Sure it would be nice if they diverted some of the pve games profits to get this stuff done but I very much doubt thats going to be an option at this point no matter how much we gripe and complain.

We the loyal players are going to have to bail the game out if we want any type of future growth and not this slow slide into oblivion.

It's as simple as that.

[BLACKR0SE]

I wish groups that add multiplayer to other games would give a hand in this game Developing an existing game shouldn't be this hard.

[Meep Meep]

TAMTAMBABY, on 19 January 2023 - 03:32 PM, said:

I wish groups that add multiplayer to other games would give a hand in this game Developing an existing game shouldn't be this hard.

Cryengine wasn't exactly a new engine when the game was developed and it wasn't really even meant for what it doing here in this game. The original long gone devs who did the actual core coding had to do some fairly ingenious workarounds and shoehorns to get the engine to do what they wanted it to do. That this means is that the code base is a massive snakes nest of potential traps for anyone trying to modify it into something else because its very difficult to predict what happens due to all the custom code workarounds.

Let me show it visually.

This would be representative of the typical purpose built engine for a given game type it was designed for.

Nice and orderly and easy to modify or diagnose isssues.



This would be the code for this game engine after years of wrangling it into doing what you want it to do even though it wasn't really meant to do it.




Now imagine you are a coder they hired fresh to work on this game? Think its going to be easy?

[VeeOt Dragon]

honestly i don't like the whole Legends thing they talked about. it stinks of Pay-to-Win mechanics to me. something i love about MWO is that it isn't in any real way a Pay-to-Win game. i have never been a fan of subscription models for games and as someone who has always been low income having anything where all you have to do is pay some cash to have an edge over other players who don't pay that cash.


sadly there isn't anything i can see right now that will get me to spend any more actual cash on the game. i also don't play MWO regularly. mostly i just come back for events and such and i rarely play more than a couple hours on days i do play. not worth any subscription amount.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 19 January 2023 - 03:49 PM.

[Meep Meep]

The upside to any potential p2w is that it will quickly rise to the top tiers where people are more than skilled enough to stop even world class players like data from going on total rampages in the currently strong meta mechs. It's games with no elo progression where p2w items become problematic as they are used to farm lower skilled players. A tier 5 tater isn't going to make a p2w mech perform any more than they can make current meta builds work.

[VeeOt Dragon]

with the current MM we already have t1s going against t5s on a roughly regular basis so any p2w mechanic with just make the new player experience even worse than it already is. if it starts turning p2w i personally will abandon MWO. i'll get my big stompy robot fix from MW:5 instead. i will also stop suggesting to folks to give the game a try and instead warn them away from it.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 19 January 2023 - 04:02 PM.

[BLACKR0SE]

Meep Meep, on 19 January 2023 - 03:46 PM, said:

Cryengine wasn't exactly a new engine when the game was developed and it wasn't really even meant for what it doing here in this game. The original long gone devs who did the actual core coding had to do some fairly ingenious workarounds and shoehorns to get the engine to do what they wanted it to do. That this means is that the code base is a massive snakes nest of potential traps for anyone trying to modify it into something else because its very difficult to predict what happens due to all the custom code workarounds.

Let me show it visually.

This would be representative of the typical purpose built engine for a given game type it was designed for.

Nice and orderly and easy to modify or diagnose isssues.



This would be the code for this game engine after years of wrangling it into doing what you want it to do even though it wasn't really meant to do it.




Now imagine you are a coder they hired fresh to work on this game? Think its going to be easy?

I know cryengine. I also know your past. You don't need to give examples, the files of many online games are circulating in the market. i saw inside . i mean 5

there is a game, there are models, there are maps, it shouldn't be difficult to redesign the old new process.

Making a table from scratch shouldn't be difficult without a conditional rule.

The important things are already ready. the hard stuff is the story, the models, the maps

what remains is menu,datebase

You say it will come, no one says it should be free anyway.. people pay for such crappy games. steam is already open market. There are many markets.

already ready at the customer. ad ready.

co-op seems too easy?

[ScrapIron Prime]

TAMTAMBABY, on 19 January 2023 - 04:06 PM, said:

there is a game, there are models, there are maps, it shouldn't be difficult to redesign the old new process.

That's where you're wrong, friend. The game engine is old. It runs on an old operating system because the new ones won't take it, and that means making all sorts of compromises. Then you have the new designers who are good with the new tools, the new operating systems. Getting someone talented to craft new dinosaur eggs is not easy.

Allow me to give you an example. I'm a computer engineer, I used to work at a major international bank you've heard of. They had a system that incorporates payroll across multiple countries and many standards, and it was OLD. It was designed to run on Windows NT 3.51. My task was to modernize it to run on Windows 2012.

To get it to do that, i had to replace part of the core of the operating system, add 16 bit libraries, and rip out Internet Information Server entirely, replacing it with a bootstrapped IIS 4.0 build that was running in 3.0 compatibility mode. I got it to work. But as a result I was the only one who understood how to FIX it if something went wrong.

The alternative, of course, was paying money to make a brand new payroll thing that used an existing Peoplesoft module... but that would have meant spending money on software... and they were already paying for me.

And THAT... is what you're talking about when you're saying to just write new stuff for a dinosaur of a platform. Let it go, make it anew.

[BLACKR0SE]

ScrapIron Prime, on 19 January 2023 - 04:45 PM, said:

That's where you're wrong, friend. The game engine is old. It runs on an old operating system because the new ones won't take it, and that means making all sorts of compromises. Then you have the new designers who are good with the new tools, the new operating systems. Getting someone talented to craft new dinosaur eggs is not easy.

Allow me to give you an example. I'm a computer engineer, I used to work at a major international bank you've heard of. They had a system that incorporates payroll across multiple countries and many standards, and it was OLD. It was designed to run on Windows NT 3.51. My task was to modernize it to run on Windows 2012.

To get it to do that, i had to replace part of the core of the operating system, add 16 bit libraries, and rip out Internet Information Server entirely, replacing it with a bootstrapped IIS 4.0 build that was running in 3.0 compatibility mode. I got it to work. But as a result I was the only one who understood how to FIX it if something went wrong.

The alternative, of course, was paying money to make a brand new payroll thing that used an existing Peoplesoft module... but that would have meant spending money on software... and they were already paying for me.

And THAT... is what you're talking about when you're saying to just write new stuff for a dinosaur of a platform. Let it go, make it anew.

I understand you.

What do people here want?

12vs12 match.

is it hard to do this? not.

Who cares about statistics.

armor 1 or 10
red or yellow
1 ton or 2 tons
10 servers or 5 servers
who cares ?


It's easy to make something from scratch. You have enough tools at your disposal. just the rules tables.

and it doesn't have to be the same
This is not a bank.

understand, man, people just want to have fun together.

We just want to see new graphics.

data doesn't matter here.

If I create a new account now and start the game from scratch, won't I get the same pleasure? what will change ?

you know popular online games a new version comes out every year. I'll take it too. Don't you think I'm enjoying it?

I think you understand me. you get what i mean.

[Meep Meep]

VeeOt Dragon, on 19 January 2023 - 04:01 PM, said:

with the current MM we already have t1s going against t5s on a roughly regular basis so any p2w mechanic with just make the new player experience even worse than it already is. if it starts turning p2w i personally will abandon MWO. i'll get my big stompy robot fix from MW:5 instead. i will also stop suggesting to folks to give the game a try and instead warn them away from it.

Got a dev quote for that because I regularly make an alt when events pop up to have some fun turboing it up to tier one and when I'm in tier 4 and 5 I don't see any tier 1 or 2 players. They don't show up till I hit tier 3 then gameplay changes drastically. Just like when you cross over to tier 2 from 3 you get matched with far more tryhards and goods. Now maybe there is some premade leakage if a top tier player lances up with lower tiers but again I don't really see that.

[BLACKR0SE]

If there is no statistic in this game, I still enjoy this game. Being in that cocpit is enough for me. Seeing those beautiful graphics is enough for me.

[sycocys]

Meep Meep, on 19 January 2023 - 03:13 PM, said:

Yet none of that is possible if they don't get enough funding. It's the classic catch 22.

Would it really hurt you to drop $7 a month on a game you play regularly to ensure it sticks around and gets further development? I get the emotions behind your opinion but again at this point its either pay ~something~ or watch the game get shut down much sooner than later. Sure it would be nice if they diverted some of the pve games profits to get this stuff done but I very much doubt thats going to be an option at this point no matter how much we gripe and complain.

We the loyal players are going to have to bail the game out if we want any type of future growth and not this slow slide into oblivion.

It's as simple as that.

Would it hurt me to toss them money for developing the game? No, but they haven't done anything to further develop the game. The only thing spending more money on this game does (imo) is encourages them to continue to not develop it or a successor.

They know how much money idiots like me will spend on a game that we are enjoying and at least seeing some legitimate attempts at progress being made - a few maps, weapons, and quite likely a slew of p2w style packs is not progress.

This game is 10 years old and is in desperate need of a new core engine that has the ability to deliver better gameplay. The IP/company that struggles to keep the franchise profitable needs to take a better approach at integrating their titles at the very least under the same launcher with one install for all the shared assets and a combined store so you can buy the dlcs and their cash mechs/patterns/bolt ons/decals all in one place.

Cross sales just drive up the value for the players, if you can unlock a pattern or whatever hero for use in all the games (or find a hero in a single player and pay a nominal fee for unlocking across all for instance) you just drive more sales and stop splitting the player base further apart into different locations/games. They could implement a salvage system and go as far as selling the various tiers of weapons (even add in engines/other equipment) for micro-scale cost as an alternative for the people that don't want to grind c-bills.

And why would they make players, most who have been around for a decade at this point, rebuild their mechbay for the pvp game? Just transfer all the mechs over, you aren't making money on them buying old packs anyhow that's why they keep cranking out new ones and have this grand Legendary mech concept. There's so much potential they just leave laying on the ground by refusing to build the next iteration and integrate all their Mechwarrior titles - much less the near-sightedness that they can't fathom a way to move beyond mech packs even for the single player game.

I'm several hundred into this game over the years, still playing skirmish on 99.9% of the drops all these years later, well and skirmish+ with domination. Honestly think its about time they return the favor a little more than keeping the servers up. Want to team up with Epic to make a MWO2 pvp DLC for MW5 and charge 50 bucks for it? I'm in. I'm sure they could show the sales numbers of mech packs and mc buys from through the years and even the current stream and they'd find it interesting enough to fund them writing network code and a gui for a game they have already made and in market.

Would reckon the real reason that Russ isn't interested though is because unlike a single player game you can't launch it and just walk away onto something else which is by all forward facing accounts of everything surrounding this game in the early years more or less what his intention was. In that last podcast he seemed more irritated than anything that this game won't die and that the players want an updated version.

[Meep Meep]

sycocys, on 19 January 2023 - 06:23 PM, said:

Would it hurt me to toss them money for developing the game? No, but they haven't done anything to further develop the game. The only thing spending more money on this game does (imo) is encourages them to continue to not develop it or a successor.

Thats a bit unfair though? There haven't been any major game changing developments since the solaris debacle since funding mostly dried up but to say they have done nothing is being a bit disingenuous. We have had new mechs and maps and loads of positive balance changes with a promise of more new maps along with long standing bug and map fixes with more mechs and possibly new weapons too. All on a budget 80% less than it was pre solaris.

As to the rest of your post thats just rehashing mistakes of the past which they seem to be willing to try to overcome now since as you say the game doggedly refuses to die due to the hardcore base.

Is it really too much to ask to spend a bit of pocket cash each month so we can keep dropping for as long as humanly possible with the bonus of more cash flow equaling less resistance to actually investing some borrowed money at risk back into the game too?

[sycocys]

Meep Meep, on 19 January 2023 - 06:55 PM, said:

Is it really too much to ask to spend a bit of pocket cash each month so we can keep dropping for as long as humanly possible with the bonus of more cash flow equaling less resistance to actually investing some borrowed money at risk back into the game too?

If they actually wanted our money (those of us that have spent way too much already), they'd not be announcing a rebrand based on mech packs. They'd be trying to rally us back up around the notion they are going to develop some actual modes, make FP something interesting - correct some of the major mistakes they walked away from instead of doubling down on their focus of how much money they can milk out of the players that are left.

Solaris could have been just fine, if they didn't abandon everything else for it.
The amount of maps this game has for as long as it's been around is staggeringly pitiful to be blunt about it.
Weapon selection is also quite thin, and some of it just plain needs to move away from TT so it works for a FPS with a bunch of different weight/armor classes that all drop together.
The balance is a whole entire different issue, they correct some things then over quirk to piss other things, make the skill tree more unbalanced in part because of the prior two and their complete lack of any foresight (or seeming comprehension of what balance is) when introducing clans.

So for me personally it is too much to ask for more money when they aren't willing to do more than add art assets and make some extra lines for weapons. If that means the servers go down, I guess that means the servers go down. I like to drop in, but there's plenty of other games with devs that actively want to make their games better.

[Rabid Imp]

Need money? Fix your pricing scheme; it has been the same since release I think. People only buy packs on sale, and only a couple of ones are even worth it. People buy drop ship deals...nobody buys the Archer package in the store, they just buy the hero for MC in game.

Pricing much like the rest of the game (as plenty of people have pointed out) has been completely ignored for years. I just bring it up because as someone who still has fun in the game I would spend on some money to help support by purchasing heroes I might like, but its just not worth it; sorry don't need 5 mechs I can purchase for C-bills in game...