Jump to content

Lrms Balance


265 replies to this topic

#41 LordNothing

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 16,460 posts

Posted 05 March 2023 - 10:44 AM

i generally find attrition play a boring waste of time. high skill segments of any game tend to drive the gameplay in that direction. there are a large number of dedicated aiming simulators that could provide the kind of gameplay data and co want. then those people who want to move around and engage dont have to wait for an eternity to fight.

Edited by LordNothing, 05 March 2023 - 10:53 AM.


#42 Crohnic

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 84 posts

Posted 05 March 2023 - 05:24 PM

The amount of matches where LRM's are too overbearing for me as someone noted before is maybe 10% but I don't like it at all and it doesn't feel like my death by LRM damage was earned when it happens.

I would prefer to see them used differently rather that being launched from behind the front line in relative safety. So here's my unpopular opinion: go heavy handed on the heat scale so they can't be boated, then buff them in whatever way works best for more mobile mechs to use such as the Hunchback 4J allowing them to be useful in smaller quantities, and lastly, find a way to make them less effective at their upper ranges (assuming this isn't already the case) so that it becomes more of a tactical weapon instead of just hanging back at a somewhat disengaged location.

With that said, my real issue is with either match maker or the presence of groups in the queue that distort the balance. It's hard to be in the low end of tier 3 and have to regularly face tier 1 and 2 players with a significant skill advantage. I occasionally drop to tier 4 and swear I still see upper echelon players showing up in groups.

#43 Scout Derek

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Infernal
  • The Infernal
  • 8,015 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationSomewhere where you'll probably never go to

Posted 05 March 2023 - 06:13 PM

View PostD A T A, on 03 March 2023 - 10:28 AM, said:


PROBLEM

I am sick of a situation where you get hit by missiles so quick that Betty can't even finish saying "warning incoming missile" anymore.
I am sick of seeing most 70-100 tonners without ecm behave just like LRM landing platforms.

PROPOSAL

Nerf LRM velocity so that slower mechs have more time to travel to their cover, and so that AMS has more time to shoot down incoming missiles.

So one of your reasons for nerfing LRM velocity... is because of an audio que not playing fast enough?

#44 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 4,435 posts

Posted 05 March 2023 - 09:46 PM

View PostScout Derek, on 05 March 2023 - 06:13 PM, said:

So one of your reasons for nerfing LRM velocity... is because of an audio que not playing fast enough?


Easy solution is to roll back to closed beta and remove all indicators of incoming missiles, we don't have incoming PPCs warnings either...

#45 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 4,435 posts

Posted 05 March 2023 - 09:49 PM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 05 March 2023 - 06:51 AM, said:

This has to be a troll thread, surely?

DATA is a good player (much better than i am), so im fairly sure this is just a case of the entire community getting trolled while people eat popcorn.


If he really is trolling/misleading rest of the community in a balance thread that he made and is a member of balancing council (cauldron) that IMO would be really good reason to remove him from that council.

#46 sycocys

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 7,592 posts

Posted 06 March 2023 - 05:48 AM

I don't know that it is an entirely troll post though some of his comments do certainly steer in that direction. If he is part of the cauldron, I do agree that posts like this are an issue but at the same time also pretty well explain the changes the cauldron suggests.

Some of the problem with LRMs is that ecm and "skills" are the default counter instead of PGI actually developing out the information sharing system which at this point is likely well beyond the point of actually getting corrected.

For me I'm past the point of consistently drawing low tier matches, but even since I returned it's been pretty rare to see a flood of LRMs - maybe 1 in like 30-40 or more matches and even then generally only for a short while during match score events.

Can also see how the players in high tiers that push their matches into one particular method of play would be pretty annoyed by the players that run the one system that confounds that, especially when its run with teamwork. For competitive players you'd think it would be a signal to adjust their play and builds, but this is MWO it's way easier to just get the game rebalanced to reinforce what they want to do.

#47 Vyx

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 170 posts

Posted 06 March 2023 - 07:35 AM

So much sound and fury, signifying nothing.

This discussion reminds me of the parable of the 'Blind Men and the Elephant'. In a nutshell-

A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the village, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it, they groped about it. The first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said, "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar-like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said the elephant "is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth, and like a spear.


In most versions of this tale, the blind men quarrel over their disagreements, suspect the others to be not telling the truth, and then come to blows. In other versions, they stop talking, start listening, and collaborate to 'see' the full elephant.

Ultimately, the idea here is that while one's subjective experience may be true, it may not be the totality of truth.

There are different play experiences in different Tiers of the game. Trying to 'fix' LRMs for all tiers may not be possible given the totality of these different play experiences.

It might just be that, from a LRM balance perspective for all tiers of play, where we are right now is just fine.

#48 Weeny Machine

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,962 posts
  • LocationAiming for the flat top (B. Murray)

Posted 06 March 2023 - 10:05 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 05 March 2023 - 06:51 AM, said:

This has to be a troll thread, surely?

I hate LRMs too and never use them, but thats not because of any principle, just because they are really bad and incredibly easy to counter on most maps. Ill be honest, i dont really want them to be good, because i experienced the lurmaggedon and the old polar highlands and it wasnt particularly fun, but they certainly arent good against good players right now.

DATA is a good player (much better than i am), so im fairly sure this is just a case of the entire community getting trolled while people eat popcorn.


Normally I would agree. However, I saw some "evidence" videos he shot...and therefore I am not sure if he is trolling. Which is sad considering such a person is in the Cauldron. On the other hand this explains other weird decisions regarding gameplay.

Edited by Weeny Machine, 06 March 2023 - 10:07 AM.


#49 Blood Rose

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • 989 posts
  • LocationHalf a mile away in a Gausszilla

Posted 06 March 2023 - 11:37 AM

View PostCrohnic, on 05 March 2023 - 05:24 PM, said:

I would prefer to see them used differently rather that being launched from behind the front line in relative safety. So here's my unpopular opinion: go heavy handed on the heat scale so they can't be boated, then buff them in whatever way works best for more mobile mechs to use such as the Hunchback 4J allowing them to be useful in smaller quantities, and lastly, find a way to make them less effective at their upper ranges (assuming this isn't already the case) so that it becomes more of a tactical weapon instead of just hanging back at a somewhat disengaged location.


Why though? IDF is an important component of modern and postmodern warfare, the ability to hit our enemy without being hit in return. LRM's spread damage and have masses of hard countermeasures - a quad AMS mech basically makes them redundant, and I should know, I have had games in my Corsair where the enemy tries to missile my team and I just sit with the main group eating missiles and occasionally popping off shots from my autocannons whilst my team demolishes the enemy front liners.
And note the name LRM - Long Range Missile. They already lost 10% of their in game range - which once you account for vertical travel time accounts for maybe 25% of the range they should have. They should be just as good at maximum range as they are the moment they clear arming distance, and the range really needs to be upped to 1200 - 1300 metres to account for vertical travel.
You dont call for ERLL's and PPC's to be nerfed at long range right?

#50 LordNothing

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 16,460 posts

Posted 06 March 2023 - 12:45 PM

if im comparing builds that are pretty much one hit torso removal and do not trip ghost heat (i made a whole damn thread for that) and a build that can sometimes do scatter damage on targets if all the planets align and while pandas are mating. where the former is acceptable and the latter is somehow a problem. is a good indicator that there is a bias.

i do give the cauldron credit for the things it has done for the game. but guided missiles and bad variants is certainly a huge blindspot for them. the fact is that good players are good (at least in part) by the virtue of not running either of those things. if you avoid something because it drags you down, then that thing is in dire need of buffs.

Edited by LordNothing, 06 March 2023 - 04:34 PM.


#51 hypographia

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 41 posts

Posted 06 March 2023 - 03:50 PM

LRMS are fine if you factor in true ROI.

To create his evidence video that links to this thread (found here: MWO: Cancer rains on the game, NERF! - YouTube) he needed 1) a full-blown LRM boat, 2) a dedicated weapon slot for tag, 3) a dedicated narc raven - arguably the best pure-support narc mech in the game, 4) polar freaking highlands, 5) the luxury of not having a single light rush him, 6) the complete lack of AMS, and 7) a team that doesn't understand ecm umbrellas, cover, etc or seemingly possess the ability in this match to do any real dmg (top dmg sub 500 in a basp - not hating on players, just pointing out all the conditions).

Did he hang 1400 dmg with 2 kills on the red team? Sure. But look at the investment it took (and the RNG favorable circumstances in map/red team selection) to get there. If he was only dropping 700dmg in his fave builds like the rest of the Blue Rangers, then he might have an argument for what an artificial "skill gap" LRM-play can be. But he's doing similar numbers to videos he used to post showing his ERLL prowess. Or his LIGHT OP campaign, etc...

And if he tried that solo, he'd be dead with sub 500 dmg every map that doesn't support hide-and-lob lrming tactics, and he'd only get that one-in-five shot at breaking say, 700, in solo when he drew the right map. But he didn't drop "solo" - even if it wasn't a premade group, the fact that he had the narc raven made it possible. Without that mech, those numbers get halved.

Which brings me to my next point: mech investment. You effectively have to split that dmg number between two mechs, b/c it took two mechs to attain. so then we have 1524 dmg between two mech for 762 - not a bad number, but nothing anyone would write home about, especially amongst comp players.

At the end of the day, if a weapon tech requires:
  • a secondary support mech dedicated to making sure your ammo hits the target
  • ideal map RNG via chance or multiple map-passes to get your voting power up
  • lack of skill in the opposing team
  • lack of ECM
  • lack of cover
  • lack of radar derp
  • lack of AMS
I can't see how that is OP.



Conversely, what current weapon system has as many defensive technologies build expressly against it? ECM doesn't affect direct fire weapons. Cover effects them the same as LRMS if you're smart about it. The enemy can't install an "aimbot" in the form of TAG to make sure their gauss hits you every time. Is there an equivalent to AMS that shreds your dmg numbers?

As others have pointed out, with all of that, I'd argue that it takes MORE skill to consistently perform at the level of other weapon techs, - especially solo - as you have so much already stacked against the weapon itself.

One might argue that if say, the author was inclined to sit back in the distance with his direwolf, and maybe another direwolf for company, that when his ecm gets countered by tag and he get's LRMd off his perch, he might have a bit of a playstyle-specific grudge against LRMS - something other players and playstyles don't expressly share. I.e. you can see why he hates them, but that doesn't mean his call for the NERF hammer is warranted among the player base.

Finally, kudos to the cauldron for swerving this sort of tactic at game play manipulation. From the videos I've seen, the author hasn't really made any inroads with his campaigns for his version of a perfect MWO, as they have yet to come to fruition. And hopefully won't anytime soon. No sense in manipulating a game for the dalliances of an individual and their preferred method of gameplay.

Edited by hypographia, 06 March 2023 - 03:58 PM.


#52 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 4,435 posts

Posted 07 March 2023 - 05:21 AM

View Posthypographia, on 06 March 2023 - 03:50 PM, said:

As others have pointed out, with all of that, I'd argue that it takes MORE skill to consistently perform at the level of other weapon techs, - especially solo - as you have so much already stacked against the weapon itself.

This very much IMO.
You can do well once ever 5-10 games with narc buddy but doing good constantly without narc buddy, nope. Specially in T1.

#53 BLACKR0SE

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Meta
  • The Meta
  • 1,375 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationTurkey/Sivas

Posted 07 March 2023 - 06:13 AM

If you are at the target of 2 LRM boats at the same time, I think it is quite normal for the sound to be delayed.

+ "lrm 10" is faster than "lrm 5" "lrm 20". but they are weak. can cause shock.

As long as everyone has access to this weapon, I think it's perfectly normal.

You can do a similar build yourself.

#54 sycocys

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 7,592 posts

Posted 07 March 2023 - 06:24 AM

View PostCurccu, on 05 March 2023 - 09:46 PM, said:

Easy solution is to roll back to closed beta and remove all indicators of incoming missiles, we don't have incoming PPCs warnings either...

"You just got hit by (dual) guass."

#55 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 4,435 posts

Posted 07 March 2023 - 11:05 AM

View PostTAMTAMBABY, on 07 March 2023 - 06:13 AM, said:

If you are at the target of 2 LRM boats at the same time, I think it is quite normal for the sound to be delayed.

+ "lrm 10" is faster than "lrm 5" "lrm 20". but they are weak. can cause shock.

As long as everyone has access to this weapon, I think it's perfectly normal.

You can do a similar build yourself.


Posted Image

Same velocity for all LRMs, mech quirks may vary but can't remember there is any specific LRM size velocity quirks.
https://mwo.nav-alph...uipment/weapons

Edited by Curccu, 07 March 2023 - 11:06 AM.


#56 BLACKR0SE

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Meta
  • The Meta
  • 1,375 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationTurkey/Sivas

Posted 07 March 2023 - 02:28 PM

View PostCurccu, on 07 March 2023 - 11:05 AM, said:


Posted Image

Same velocity for all LRMs, mech quirks may vary but can't remember there is any specific LRM size velocity quirks.
https://mwo.nav-alph...uipment/weapons



Of course, there will be a cooling difference between a big weapon and a small weapon.

Posted Image

Edited by TAMTAMBABY, 07 March 2023 - 02:29 PM.


#57 BLACKR0SE

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Meta
  • The Meta
  • 1,375 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationTurkey/Sivas

Posted 07 March 2023 - 02:40 PM

Also, I think the deterrent effect of chain-fired missiles is more. It blinds the enemy.

It is also easy to control the temperature.

It's like a song that you can stop whenever you want :)

#58 Novakaine

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 5,650 posts
  • LocationThe Republic of Texas

Posted 07 March 2023 - 03:40 PM

Oh come the hell on the real elephant on the battlefield is 2000 meter blue flashlight.
From a guy hiding behind a rock with his giggling blue flashlight buddies.
No dodging those.
All the while complaining about the lone Lurm boat on the other side.
Where's the counter for this?
Counters for LRM's: Terrain, Speed, ECM, AMS, Laser AMS and a Chipmunk holding a coconut.
Counters for ERLL's: Terrain or until you try to move to the next bit of cover - zap.
Seriously just stop.

#59 Curccu

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Liquid Metal
  • Liquid Metal
  • 4,435 posts

Posted 07 March 2023 - 11:43 PM

View PostTAMTAMBABY, on 07 March 2023 - 02:28 PM, said:

Of course, there will be a cooling difference between a big weapon and a small weapon.

OK you meant Cooldown... I thought "faster" meant velocity.

View PostTAMTAMBABY, on 07 March 2023 - 02:40 PM, said:

Also, I think the deterrent effect of chain-fired missiles is more. It blinds the enemy.
It is also easy to control the temperature.

If enemy is using any kind of cover or has AMS chainfire is bad idea, it just takes too long to deliver all of the potential damage to enemy:
Lock on time --> Missile travel time to locked enemy --> and if you chainfire you can add even more time to those until you have shot your last launcher and enemy should have crawled back to cover way before those last missiles hit.

But sure if there is some fat mech passing some wide open area without any AMS cover then it doesn't really matter if you chainfire or not and it might hinder return fire being constantly rained with lurms.

Edited by Curccu, 07 March 2023 - 11:45 PM.


#60 CrimsonPhantom6sg062

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 84 posts

Posted 08 March 2023 - 04:42 AM

I don't feel like having a big discussion on lrms now.


However, I will say the following:

Disagree with lower missile velocity from OP.

Would like to see Target Decay quirks in Sensors Skill Tree change. Max nodes would be 2, each node adds +0.8s to target decay.

Agree with D A T A that lrms shouldn't be so strong in lower tiers. If anything, lrms should be relatively stronger in the higher tiers. Reason is that lrms are essentially area denial weapons. Too much area denial leads to lots of static play, which is a big turn-off for casuals. Also, lrms become exponentially more dangerous in advantage situations when more players can risk throwing themselves at the enemy and help IDF builds spot targets. However, comp players generally should be fine with this because they usually have the time and patience to work around and counter area denial tactics from IDF.
Changes to lrms ought to heighten its skill floor, and nothing else. If less able-bodied/ well-"connected" players want a more reliable build, I would suggest propping up a laservom or a high ROF build such as RACs or AC5.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users