17 replies to this topic

[Strelok7]

Quirk changes and nerfing.
Sorry if your blood pressure will go up.

Why does it never end.
It is like constantly admitting that you made the original wrong.

Do you just play, notice a very effective build, and then decide -aha- we gonna change that.

Should be a very rare thing. Statistically speaking.

Plus these actions have a high chance of being unfair. Cause you don't have ALL of the original designer's decision making reasoning available anymore. Especially on old mech releases.

Mech might be overpowered here, but it is underpowered there. If OP gets nerfed, quirks get changed, but you did not notice/know what the designer knew at the time, then you make a change that is not Balanced by definition.

Not to mention getting players upset. They get used to something, build something, spend money on A = and then it becomes B.

No insult intended. Trying to understand the factual historical reasoning.

[Heavy Money]

You seem to think that there was some overarching logic to the balance of things at some point, and that recent changes are blindly ruining that original model. But this is not the case. There never was a plan or overall logic. There wasn't balance before, so it hasn't been disrupted. There was no original designer's intention that was working properly. There was originally stats taken from tabletop lore, and then a bunch of hamfisted changes over the years.

What we have now is the Cauldron, a group of experienced players, making iterative changes, watching how they work out in practice, and then making more changes in an attempt to dial things in. Generally they have done an excellent job compared to where things were like a couple of years ago before they started.

So yes, the original was made wrong. And there's no way to know what is "right" without changing things and seeing how it works out.

Edited by Heavy Money, 19 April 2023 - 08:22 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

you also have to keep in mind that there has been a sort of power creep over the years so the older mechs need some kind of buff to keep them effective against the newer stuff. hell the original version of the game didn't even have Clan mechs in it (this was before i started playing of course). there have been good and bad changes not only to mechs but to weapon systems to try and build a kind of balance. sadly though the Cauldron has done a lot of good its obvious that they have a bias towards certain play styles and a dislike of others (hence the buffs to long range direct fire an nerfs to things like LRM and its support equipment. though they did lower the weight and slot requirement of IS Beagle probe, definitely a good thing.)

the thing with MWO is that its a constantly shifting game. even though it looks like there have been a LOT of Quirk passes and their have its mostly differing mechs with each pass. the vast majority is intended to bring under performing or underutilized mechs more in line with the more well used ones. if you look at the mechs and their quirks you will notice that ones that have preformed consistently over the years have far fewer quirks than those that haven't. also some Quirks are there to help for a mech to preform at a given role above another (i am uncertain if they take lore into consideration for these or not). so take the Dervish-6MR, it has some very nice LRM quirks making it better served in that role than with say MRM (doesn't stop you from using them its just better with the LRM). the Quirks also help diversify mech variants. look at the Black Nights for instance. all but the Hero are roughly the same in that they are all energy Hardpoints. some have more some have less and some are placed differently but generally its an energy platform. its the quirks that make them different. one might have great PPC quirks while another is geared towards MLs or even Pulse lasers. it gives you a reason to pick one of them over another based on what you want to build. as the game has aged these quirks have need fine tuning or changed to better balance the game.

[crazytimes]

Mechs have been added, gameplay preferences changes, other changes can have cascade effects, and overall more data is gathered. There's lots of reasons to adjust quirks and balance, and absolutely no reason to leave things stagnant.

Just because a change doesn't help your personal favourite mech doesn't mean it's not a change that may be collectively good.

[LordNothing]

a static game is a dead game. having pgi knock over all the sand castles every month is what brings me back to the game.

[Bud Crue]

Strelok7, on 19 April 2023 - 08:01 PM, said:

Quirk changes and nerfing.
Sorry if your blood pressure will go up.

Why does it never end.
It is like constantly admitting that you made the original wrong.

The current trend of making quirks more general overall (e.g., taking away a 10% ML cooldown or 10% ballistic cooldown and replacing it with a 10% cooldown for everything), while also providing build specific quirks to certain otherwise side-lined mechs (see some of the recent Kintaro changes) is utterly mild mannered and almost irrelevant to overall game play when compared to the hey day of Chris's and Paul's monthly exclamations of "balance is the best it has ever been in the history of the game!!" followed by their similarly monthly imposition of some of the largest nerfs to entire weapons systems that were ever proposed.

But to your actual question: Yeah, iterative changes are needed to ensure that overall game play is fairly balanced, but to also make the game interesting, and to encourage us to buy mechs. Sometimes they get it right immediately, sometimes they don't. Meh.

[An6ryMan69]

Constant balancing means nothing is that awful, but it also means nothing is that good.

You might as well just get whatever mech has the coolest paint job and use that one until you get good with it.

I'm actually quite surprised how many players are currently handing out cash for Legendary mechs, even as many of them are openly talking about them being nerfed. Makes no sense to me. I doubt I'd be lining up to buy a new pickup with a V8 if the dealer could recall it at any time and downgrade it to a V6.

If you're chasing that perfect mech and build that is just a slayer in your hands, just stop wasting your time; forces more powerful than you are actively moving against your success.

[Gilgamesh Hoi]

Heavy Money, on 19 April 2023 - 08:22 PM, said:

What we have now is the Cauldron, a group of experienced players, making iterative changes,

TBF their efforts the last two year have been to make the game specifically fit their play-style, not the community of players at large, which is a bummer in many ways, but hey what ya gonna do?

An6ryMan69, on 20 April 2023 - 08:30 AM, said:

I'm actually quite surprised how many players are currently handing out cash for Legendary mechs, even as many of them are openly talking about them being nerfed.

Well for me and my mate its the cool hardpoints arrangements on some of the mechs, not the quirks which are transitory. And I dig the battlepass aspects as well!

Edited by Gilgamesh Hoi, 20 April 2023 - 08:46 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

An6ryMan69, on 20 April 2023 - 08:30 AM, said:

If you're chasing that perfect mech and build that is just a slayer in your hands, just stop wasting your time; forces more powerful than you are actively moving against your success.

Just focus on good hardpoints and mounts and not quirks. Quirks change, good mech layouts dont (except the BNC-3M *looks angrily at PGI*)

[Leadpaintchips]

Heavy Money, on 19 April 2023 - 08:22 PM, said:

There was originally stats taken from tabletop lore

This is the part that always gets me. The stats from tabletop lore didn't factor in how accurate *any* Mechwarrior game is. They don't factor in 4+ players all alpha striking a torso at once. Trying to balance that gameplay against the original tabletop numbers is not easy while also throwing in meta shifts so that those who enjoy blue lasers, LURMs, SRM spam, and mixed weapon groups can all have fun.


From what I've heard (I haven't played it), even tabletop struggled hard with balance, especially when it came to lights and Clan vs IS. I find it to be a no brainer that they're constantly trying to tweak the 1,000+ mechs in the game. Studios much larger, with a much larger balance team, and with less variables struggle with balance so why are we expecting a team of like 50 people total to be able to balance this game into perfection?

[Vellron2005]

As far as I can fathom, constant balancing and re-balancing is made so that it appears that development is being done on the game. It also gives the false illusion that the game is made "fresh", as certain metas are nerfed and new metas rise. If a nerf or a re-balancing has made your hot build obsolete or no longer viable, the Munchkin in you will seek out a new OP build to rock.

Also, some balancing is done to enhance how much a new mech's build is viable, so whenever a new mech is about to release, for cash, you can expect the meta that supports it to be buffed, and those that counter it nerfed.

Then there's the "cater to the loud vocal minority" balancing, which seeks to rebalance the less popular. So if an "owns all mech packs" or a "streams alot" says something sucks, it's likely to get... errrr.. balanced. LRMs especially.

You have to understand one thing. This game has, aside from all the mechs, nothing to do with actual Battletech, actual table top.. And also keep in mind that at it's core, Battletech setting is one big power creep, and that's possibly the only aspect of it that MWO is true to.

MWO is a fun game to play, but you have to take it as-is. And not think too much about it.

[Strelok7]

Thanks for the answers ALL. I will read, as I have meaningful time. MWO became an interest of mine.

[Strelok7]

Heavy Money, on 19 April 2023 - 08:22 PM, said:

You seem to think that there was some overarching logic to the balance of things at some point, and that recent changes are blindly ruining that original model. But this is not the case. There never was a plan or overall logic. There wasn't balance before, so it hasn't been disrupted. There was no original designer's intention that was working properly. There was originally stats taken from tabletop lore, and then a bunch of hamfisted changes over the years.

What we have now is the Cauldron, a group of experienced players, making iterative changes, watching how they work out in practice, and then making more changes in an attempt to dial things in. Generally they have done an excellent job compared to where things were like a couple of years ago before they started.

So yes, the original was made wrong. And there's no way to know what is "right" without changing things and seeing how it works out.

Your conclusion about my prejudice on "original overarching logic to the balance of things", is correct.
Thanks for enlightening on the background of things!

"stats taken from tabletop lore"
Just got my first tabletop as a gift, on Christmas.

Edited by Strelok7, 20 April 2023 - 02:32 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

There are too many variable to balance the game. That's simply a fact. Adding more mechs just made it worse but perfect balance was never achieved. Historically, balance resolved around outliers like when a new mech was released that could boat a specific weapon, that weapon combo was generally nerfed in some way.

[Meep Meep]

LordNothing, on 20 April 2023 - 02:39 AM, said:

a static game is a dead game. having pgi knock over all the sand castles every month is what brings me back to the game.

This is what keeps eve online fresh even after two decades of existance. They morph the balance each year to mix it up and keep the meta active and evolving. Sure it generates some massive salt when the changes hit because people like their comfortable meta but overall it improves the game. This is how its working here now. Though I think there is still a bit of internal cauldron bias for the wallflower meta since it never seems to get many changes other than buffs.

Edited by Meep Meep, 20 April 2023 - 01:35 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Gilgamesh Hoi, on 20 April 2023 - 08:44 AM, said:

TBF their efforts the last two year have been to make the game specifically fit their play-style, not the community of players at large, which is a bummer in many ways, but hey what ya gonna do?

They haven't. Unless you think their playstyle is "everything." Before they started, the viable playstyles were sniping, sniping, and occasionally IS MPL brawl. Now brawling is better than ever, and there's lots of options for mid and mid-long range. Before, the good weapons were cERPPcs, UAC 10+5 dakka, and IS MPLs and not much else.

[crazytimes]

Heavy Money, on 20 April 2023 - 02:16 PM, said:

They haven't. Unless you think their playstyle is "everything." Before they started, the viable playstyles were sniping, sniping, and occasionally IS MPL brawl. Now brawling is better than ever, and there's lots of options for mid and mid-long range. Before, the good weapons were cERPPcs, UAC 10+5 dakka, and IS MPLs and not much else.

Wasn't that long ago that snubs and LPPCs were meme weapons, and AC5s were unseen. There are more viable builds than a couple of years ago. I don't miss the days of Summoner/Veagle 3xcERPPC Pop-Tart duels.

[VeeOt Dragon]

while LRM continue to get nerfed every time i turn around. they are the most easily countered weapon in the game but get the most hate from the Vocal Minority.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 21 April 2023 - 09:47 AM.