77 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Weeny Machine, on 03 May 2023 - 07:19 AM, said:

Ok, seeing 3-5 mechs sitting at the fringe of the map and firing from there isn't a hint of a sniper meta. A Dire Whale or Atlas with nothing but ERLL isn't also questionable - also about balance when it comes to using those weapons at close range.

If you subtract light mechs (which have not often much choice but use short range weapons), you don't see many brawlers

If that happened every game, i might agree. It doesnt though. It happens occasionally, sure.. but thats to be expected. I feel like this is a case of confirmation bias. Try actually making a record of what builds you see over 10 games or so.

What balance would you like to see when using long range weapons up close? Because shorter range weapons already outdps them handily while generating less heat (barring Gauss, obviously).

[PocketYoda]

Widowmaker1981, on 03 May 2023 - 09:08 AM, said:

If that happened every game, i might agree. It doesnt though. It happens occasionally, sure.. but thats to be expected. I feel like this is a case of confirmation bias. Try actually making a record of what builds you see over 10 games or so.

What balance would you like to see when using long range weapons up close? Because shorter range weapons already outdps them handily while generating less heat (barring Gauss, obviously).

Its happening a lot in tiers 4 and 3.

[Weeny Machine]

Widowmaker1981, on 03 May 2023 - 09:08 AM, said:

If that happened every game, i might agree. It doesnt though. It happens occasionally, sure.. but thats to be expected. I feel like this is a case of confirmation bias. Try actually making a record of what builds you see over 10 games or so.

What balance would you like to see when using long range weapons up close? Because shorter range weapons already outdps them handily while generating less heat (barring Gauss, obviously).

They outdps them in theory. If you ever get close enough before you take too much damage. The problem are also the maps. When I play matches with the good T1 players it is mostly that both sides hole up in one place. Trade shots and then when someone is weakened enough. It is glorified whack-a-mole and boring. But to each his own I guess.

I suggest you do this because when I feel usually like on a Rave party with 6424624 lasers then I do not need to check builds.

But whatever...I know that people defend this crap tooth and nail. It is simply stupid that a DW sith e.g. in Tourmaline in one corner (that one near the bridge) and shoots across the whole map on targets with ERLL while not moving most of the match. Well, ok...not really whack-a-mole. There seems to be also an element of tower defense involved.

[Widowmaker1981]

PocketYoda, on 03 May 2023 - 11:50 PM, said:

Its happening a lot in tiers 4 and 3.

Thats possible, i obviously cant comment since i dont play in those tiers. Its probably true that ideal balance does vary according to player skill, but what do you do in that case? Is it reasonable to nerf things so that people who are bad at the game dont have to learn any new strategies, if that nerfing makes them useless against decent players?

Weeny Machine, on 04 May 2023 - 06:07 AM, said:

They outdps them in theory. If you ever get close enough before you take too much damage. The problem are also the maps. When I play matches with the good T1 players it is mostly that both sides hole up in one place. Trade shots and then when someone is weakened enough. It is glorified whack-a-mole and boring. But to each his own I guess.

I suggest you do this because when I feel usually like on a Rave party with 6424624 lasers then I do not need to check builds.

But whatever...I know that people defend this crap tooth and nail. It is simply stupid that a DW sith e.g. in Tourmaline in one corner (that one near the bridge) and shoots across the whole map on targets with ERLL while not moving most of the match. Well, ok...not really whack-a-mole. There seems to be also an element of tower defense involved.

They outdps them in practice, massively. The cost for that massive DPS/HPS advantage is short range, as you note. And yeah, some maps do make it hard to get into brawl range. Other maps make it impossible to make use of long range, and i dont see you complaining about that..

Just seeing lasers is not proof of a sniper. Is my HLL/ERML Shadow Cat a sniper? This is starting to feel less like a problem with snipers and more of a problem with 'other people not wanting to brawl all the time'

[PocketYoda]

Widowmaker1981, on 04 May 2023 - 07:11 AM, said:

Thats possible, i obviously cant comment since i dont play in those tiers. Its probably true that ideal balance does vary according to player skill, but what do you do in that case? Is it reasonable to nerf things so that people who are bad at the game dont have to learn any new strategies, if that nerfing makes them useless against decent players?



They outdps them in practice, massively. The cost for that massive DPS/HPS advantage is short range, as you note. And yeah, some maps do make it hard to get into brawl range. Other maps make it impossible to make use of long range, and i dont see you complaining about that..

Just seeing lasers is not proof of a sniper. Is my HLL/ERML Shadow Cat a sniper? This is starting to feel less like a problem with snipers and more of a problem with 'other people not wanting to brawl all the time'

I guess you could call a range reduction a nerf but with how the maps are designed the large lasers and certain ballistics imo are far to long.. especially clan. it just lowers the maps usefulness and the rest of the weapons in game.. Look at things like pulse lasers, almost totally non existent these days.. Players no longer even really need to get close anymore.

Edited by PocketYoda, 04 May 2023 - 11:51 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

PocketYoda, on 04 May 2023 - 11:51 PM, said:

I guess you could call a range reduction a nerf but with how the maps are designed the large lasers and certain ballistics imo are far to long.. especially clan. it just lowers the maps usefulness and the rest of the weapons in game.. Look at things like pulse lasers, almost totally non existent these days.. Players no longer even really need to get close anymore.

Erm.. id personally say the C-LPL is the best weapon in the game right now, or at least the most reliable weapon in the most situations. IS LPLs are also pretty boss. MPLs dont feel like they in a great place though, ill agree.

By certain ballistics i assume you mean AC2s. I tend to agree that there is too much AC2 spam at the moment, but i think thats more a case of 4 legendries in a row being based around AC2 spam than it is a problem with the weapon itself.

[feeWAIVER]

Widowmaker1981, on 04 May 2023 - 07:11 AM, said:

Just seeing lasers is not proof of a sniper. Is my HLL/ERML Shadow Cat a sniper? This is starting to feel less like a problem with snipers and more of a problem with 'other people not wanting to brawl all the time'

Hate to say it, but HLLs need nerfed.
They can core out and kill my locust from behind faster than the sound can even register.
It's happened more than once. I stop at a corner to check my seismic, and a clan mech behind me 1shots me before I have time to react. No visual or audio cues, just 100% to instant death. Did Cauldron lower their beam duration or something? It's dumb.

[Widowmaker1981]

feeWAIVER, on 05 May 2023 - 05:55 AM, said:

Hate to say it, but HLLs need nerfed.
They can core out and kill my locust from behind faster than the sound can even register.
It's happened more than once. I stop at a corner to check my seismic, and a clan mech behind me 1shots me before I have time to react. No visual or audio cues, just 100% to instant death. Did Cauldron lower their beam duration or something? It's dumb.

No, they have a 1.45s burn, and are an absolute pain to use against fast lights, unless they run in a straight line or stand still.

However, i dont think thats a HLL specific issue. Literally any half decent laser vomit setup can backshot a non moving locust faster than most people can react. Assuming you are running max structure skills and have 5 back armour (which is being generous, id imagine), a locust has 19 HP vs a rear ST shot. 2 LPL + 4 ERML is 52 damage, over ~1s, so youd be dead in ~0.4 seconds, and thats using LPLs instead of HLLs (Pulse lasers have a FAR less noticeable audio cue when they hit you than heavies or ERs)

To be honest, LPLs are far superior weapons to HLLs - any mech that has the tonnage to run LPLs should do that. Where HLLs shine is giving hardpoint and tonnage starved mechs the ability to pack a solid punch

(Pls no nerf. >_> HLLs existing means its actually viable to use an ECM Shadow Cat with a build that isnt 2xERPPC, and thats a huge deal for me, because Scats are my favourite mechs and its nice to have multiple build options)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 05 May 2023 - 06:30 AM.

[feeWAIVER]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 May 2023 - 06:24 AM, said:

No, they have a 1.45s burn, and are an absolute pain to use against fast lights, unless they run in a straight line or stand still.

However, i dont think thats a HLL specific issue. Literally any half decent laser vomit setup can backshot a non moving locust faster than most people can react. Assuming you are running max structure skills and have 5 back armour (which is being generous, id imagine), a locust has 19 HP vs a rear ST shot. 2 LPL + 4 ERML is 52 damage, over ~1s, so youd be dead in ~0.4 seconds, and thats using LPLs instead of HLLs (Pulse lasers have a FAR less noticeable audio cue when they hit you than heavies or ERs)

To be honest, LPLs are far superior weapons to HLLs - any mech that has the tonnage to run LPLs should do that. Where HLLs shine is giving hardpoint and tonnage starved mechs the ability to pack a solid punch

(Pls no nerf. >_> HLLs existing means its actually viable to use an ECM Shadow Cat with a build that isnt 2xERPPC, and thats a huge deal for me, because Scats are my favourite mechs and its nice to have multiple build options)

0.4 second should be time for me to react and twist.
Maybe there's a bug or something preventing the laser dmg sound and red dmg directional indicator?
It's dumb to be 1shot with no ability to react. No other weapon has caught me like that, just HLLs.

If we had drop decks in Quickplay it wouldn't be such an issue, but as is it's pretty game breaking.

[The Brewer]

Sounds like HSR. What’s your ping, and did you catch the ping of your opponent?

[Widowmaker1981]

feeWAIVER, on 05 May 2023 - 07:46 AM, said:

0.4 second should be time for me to react and twist.

Based on what? I have reasonable reactions and get about 200ms average on those tests, which are when staring at a blue screen waiting for it to change colour. In a match you're staring at a minimap looking for seismic blips and not specifically for enemy damage, so you need to add brain processing time, and lag time. I doubt you can reliably react to unexpected dmg in under 0.5s

[Weeny Machine]

feeWAIVER, on 05 May 2023 - 07:46 AM, said:

0.4 second should be time for me to react and twist.
Maybe there's a bug or something preventing the laser dmg sound and red dmg directional indicator?
It's dumb to be 1shot with no ability to react. No other weapon has caught me like that, just HLLs.

If we had drop decks in Quickplay it wouldn't be such an issue, but as is it's pretty game breaking.

I got hit by lasers without sound. It seems to happen now and then

[feeWAIVER]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 May 2023 - 01:08 PM, said:

Based on what? I have reasonable reactions and get about 200ms average on those tests, which are when staring at a blue screen waiting for it to change colour. In a match you're staring at a minimap looking for seismic blips and not specifically for enemy damage, so you need to add brain processing time, and lag time. I doubt you can reliably react to unexpected dmg in under 0.5s

If the audio worked properly, then yes, I believe I could react in under half a second.
If I fail to, then that's my failure. The point being that when it doesn't even give the normal audio que, that's a problem.

[Widowmaker1981]

feeWAIVER, on 05 May 2023 - 02:57 PM, said:

If the audio worked properly, then yes, I believe I could react in under half a second.
If I fail to, then that's my failure. The point being that when it doesn't even give the normal audio que, that's a problem.

I have the same issue, but with Pulse lasers, if i ever die without having any idea someone was there, its always pulses - I also notice that is a thing for a lot of people - i think the 4 LPL build on the Sunspider is better than the 2 LPL 4 ERML build despite being worse on paper, purely because people notice being hit by ERMLs but dont notice being hit by the pulses - with the LPL build its often obvious - ill be shooting a Marauder or King Crab in the booty (so the beams are out of the pilots field of view) and get mostly ill 2 full cycles off before suddenly they notice it when betty goes "Left Torso Critical Damage". Ill do the same thing with the LPL/ERML combo and theyll usually notice the first alpha. Weird that you get it with Heavy lasers, since they sound like ERs to me when they hit me.

Edit.. that said, maybe im assuming that because they look like ERs - i think its pretty rare for HLLs to be fired by themselves except by Incubuses, on every thing else they are mixed with ERMLs. I havent really tried using pure HLL builds so i dont know if it would have the same effect as the pure LPL one.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 05 May 2023 - 03:51 PM.

[Volume]

12 linebackers

[Meep Meep]

Widowmaker1981, on 05 May 2023 - 03:35 PM, said:

I have the same issue, but with Pulse lasers, if i ever die without having any idea someone was there, its always pulses - I also notice that is a thing for a lot of people - i think the 4 LPL build on the Sunspider is better than the 2 LPL 4 ERML build despite being worse on paper, purely because people notice being hit by ERMLs but dont notice being hit by the pulses - with the LPL build its often obvious - ill be shooting a Marauder or King Crab in the booty (so the beams are out of the pilots field of view) and get mostly ill 2 full cycles off before suddenly they notice it when betty goes "Left Torso Critical Damage". Ill do the same thing with the LPL/ERML combo and theyll usually notice the first alpha. Weird that you get it with Heavy lasers, since they sound like ERs to me when they hit me.

Edit.. that said, maybe im assuming that because they look like ERs - i think its pretty rare for HLLs to be fired by themselves except by Incubuses, on every thing else they are mixed with ERMLs. I havent really tried using pure HLL builds so i dont know if it would have the same effect as the pure LPL one.

It's the hit sounds. LPL are very quiet and easily lost in the background noise where beams have the distinct scorch sound effect. Small lasers have a very quiet hit sound too and far more than once I've used a stealth flea with small beams or pulse and just reamed away at rear armor with the target not noticing at all until betty *******.

[Bassault]

If you want to abuse snipers, bring a poptarter and play it well. Snubs or clan ERPPC can work fine. Think shadowcats, vapor eagles, executioners, phoenix hawks, vulcans, urbanmechs, katana kat.

Edited by Bassault, 01 June 2023 - 09:10 PM.

[Meep Meep]

Bassault, on 01 June 2023 - 09:09 PM, said:

If you want to abuse snipers, bring a poptarter and play it well. Snubs or clan ERPPC can work fine. Think shadowcats, vapor eagles, executioners, phoenix hawks, vulcans, urbanmechs, katana kat.

If I feel like poptarting ppc this is my go to mech.

kfx-p

Superb high mounts.

Edited by Meep Meep, 01 June 2023 - 09:18 PM.