21 replies to this topic

[ESC 907]

So, to dissuade boating, this game has been nerfing the crap out of weapons - especially Clan Energy weapons. We have had C-SPLs nerfed, C-MPLs nerfed, and now C-ERMLs are getting nerfed? Do you not realize how this BS affects builds that are unable to boat these weapons? e.g. I had a MLX build with 2xC-MPLs that I loved, but after the dmg. nerf that happened for the C-MPLs, that build was essentially invalidated!

How about instead of nerfing the dmg of weapons, there is a system put in place to dissuade boating Energy weapons of a single type/weightclass? If a 'Mech has more than a certain number of Medium/Large Energy Weapons, it could somehow cause issues for the engine. It could either affect Cooldown times (because the engine has to charge all those weapons), or gradually ramp up heat -maybe to a set percentage or simply a continuous increase until shutdown/overheat (because all those weapons running are going to generate heat).

Personally, I think the heat option would work great, even if it just increases heat to a set percentage of 20% or 25%, as most Vomit-Comets are built to generate ~80%-85% heat in a single alpha. This could also be addressed by simply making it such that firing more than 6xC-ERMLs causes significantly more ghost heat. This way, 'Mechs that are running simpler builds with only 2-4 of these Energy weapons are not nerfed into oblivion, but the Vomit-Comet META is strongly dissuaded.

[Horseman]

Sounds like you either don't know about the heat penalty mechanic in MWO or are re-hashing the old Energy Draw concept that has been an abysmal failure when attempted.

[ESC 907]

Horseman, on 22 May 2023 - 10:18 AM, said:

Sounds like you either don't know about the heat penalty mechanic in MWO or are re-hashing the old Energy Draw concept that has been an abysmal failure when attempted.

Oh, you mean Ghost Heat? Which is unable to dissuade Energy-boating as it is? What is in effect right now is not enough, they need to at least ramp that **** up. If they want to prevent the Energy-boating META, they should find a solution that is not nerfing dmg.

As I said, nerfing dmg as they are is simply sidelining builds that can only carry a few lasers at a time.

[Widowmaker1981]

ESC 907, on 22 May 2023 - 12:55 PM, said:

...If they want to prevent the Energy-boating META...

Ghost heat is simply designed to prevent alpha strikes with excessive numbers of identical/similar weapons. Its not designed to 'prevent energy boating' and ... to be honest id ask why you think that should happen? You do realise that lots and lots of mechs exist which only have energy hardpoints. What are they supposed to do if you were to prevent energy boating?

[Horseman]

ESC 907, on 22 May 2023 - 12:55 PM, said:

Oh, you mean Ghost Heat? Which is unable to dissuade Energy-boating as it is?

Bruh... if you cared to read the lore, the 3rd edition rulebook quite clearly stated that mechs tend to rely on energy weapons with missiles and ballistics being secondary.

[ESC 907]

Widowmaker1981, on 24 May 2023 - 06:03 AM, said:

Ghost heat is simply designed to prevent alpha strikes with excessive numbers of identical/similar weapons. Its not designed to 'prevent energy boating' and ... to be honest id ask why you think that should happen? You do realise that lots and lots of mechs exist which only have energy hardpoints. What are they supposed to do if you were to prevent energy boating?

IMHO, the current META of boating Large + Medium lasers should be dissuaded as it is. PGI should be trying to tamp down the strategy of maximizing high-dmg peeks. Boating Smalls or lesser, or mixing the various sizes, I can understand. I am not against boating energy weapons, just the in-game tactic "as it is"

Horseman, on 24 May 2023 - 12:08 PM, said:

Bruh... if you cared to read the lore, the 3rd edition rulebook quite clearly stated that mechs tend to rely on energy weapons with missiles and ballistics being secondary.

"If I cared to read the lore" huh? I am aware of the lore that Ballistics and Missiles are primary weapons in engagements where supply is not an issue, and energy weapons are typically primary in scenarios where supply may be an issue. Tukayyid, anyone?

I am simply of the opinion that the balancing that devs are using for Energy weapons is debilitating builds that only carry a small number of Energy hardpoints.

[Nine-Ball]

No need for ghost heat, no need for energy draw.

Just give a 1% penalty per laser hardpoint in use to heat -- or above the HSL limit or w/e. Something that can normally fire 6 at once boating 12 of them would see 6% additional heat using the HSL limit or 12% going by simple hardpoint quantity.

Then test and see how it affects and meshes with the skill system so theoretically if you take all heat dissipation skills you would get close to 0% heat loss/gained overall depending on the mech and hardpoint usage. The key thing to watch out for is to see how much it affects things like TTK and ability to alpha strike again.

Maybe some additional purchasable quirks for your mech that would increase heat dissipation rate at the cost of structure and/or armor -- maybe 10% heat diss for 10% structure and/or 10% armor. Or natural quirks like arm mounted weapons having -10% heat dissipation rate for arm mounted weapons. Could maybe argue for mechs with larger arms having a better heat dissipation rate and scaling down from there to something like a stalker which technically wouldn't count?

[Widowmaker1981]

ESC 907, on 24 May 2023 - 05:53 PM, said:

IMHO, the current META of boating Large + Medium lasers should be dissuaded as it is. PGI should be trying to tamp down the strategy of maximizing high-dmg peeks. Boating Smalls or lesser, or mixing the various sizes, I can understand. I am not against boating energy weapons, just the in-game tactic "as it is"

May i ask what, in your ideal world, match gameplay would look like? You dont like the peeking gameplay, so what would you prefer to see?

[ESC 907]

Widowmaker1981, on 25 May 2023 - 02:10 AM, said:

May i ask what, in your ideal world, match gameplay would look like? You dont like the peeking gameplay, so what would you prefer to see?

I do not mind the peeking gameplay, I would just prefer it not be maximum-damage+range peeking. And for devs to find a way to dissuade/mitigate it WITHOUT lowering the damages of lasers. As I said, constantly reducing damage of lasers is declawing many builds that rely on only a few Energy hardpoints.

[KursedVixen]

ESC 907, on 21 May 2023 - 11:10 PM, said:

So, to dissuade boating, this game has been nerfing the crap out of weapons - especially Clan Energy weapons. We have had C-SPLs nerfed, C-MPLs nerfed, and now C-ERMLs are getting nerfed? Do you not realize how this BS affects builds that are unable to boat these weapons? e.g. I had a MLX build with 2xC-MPLs that I loved, but after the dmg. nerf that happened for the C-MPLs, that build was essentially invalidated!

How about instead of nerfing the dmg of weapons, there is a system put in place to dissuade boating Energy weapons of a single type/weightclass? If a 'Mech has more than a certain number of Medium/Large Energy Weapons, it could somehow cause issues for the engine. It could either affect Cooldown times (because the engine has to charge all those weapons), or gradually ramp up heat -maybe to a set percentage or simply a continuous increase until shutdown/overheat (because all those weapons running are going to generate heat).

Personally, I think the heat option would work great, even if it just increases heat to a set percentage of 20% or 25%, as most Vomit-Comets are built to generate ~80%-85% heat in a single alpha. This could also be addressed by simply making it such that firing more than 6xC-ERMLs causes significantly more ghost heat. This way, 'Mechs that are running simpler builds with only 2-4 of these Energy weapons are not nerfed into oblivion, but the Vomit-Comet META is strongly dissuaded.

notice they always nerf clan weapons and almost never Inner sphere ones?

[Widowmaker1981]

KursedVixen, on 26 May 2023 - 04:16 AM, said:

notice they always nerf clan weapons and almost never Inner sphere ones?

Do you ONLY play clans? Every post i see from you looks like it comes from the perspective of someone who literally never uses IS mechs and only clan ones. If thats true, you might want to consider you only have half the story when it comes to balance..

[Horseman]

ESC 907, on 24 May 2023 - 05:53 PM, said:

I am simply of the opinion that the balancing that devs are using for Energy weapons is debilitating builds that only carry a small number of Energy hardpoints.

Son... a real-time shooter cannot be mechanically balanced the same way as a turn-based tabletop wargame. Not that tabletop is balanced in the first place, without relying on BV. But because MWO is not tabletop, it can do things more granularly than TT in order to balance chassis and weapons - for one, mechs with only a small number of hardpoints of a given type tend to have quirks that benefit weapons that slot in those hardpoints.
And, if you're intentionally choosing to spend tonnage on an area your mech is weak in to begin with - such putting medium lasers on mechs that have very few energy hardpoints to use - then that's a you problem. Maybe try to capitalize on your mech's strengths instead?

[ESC 907]

Horseman, on 26 May 2023 - 03:03 PM, said:

for one, mechs with only a small number of hardpoints of a given type tend to have quirks that benefit weapons that slot in those hardpoints.

LOL, like the IFR-RC with UAC quirks? When it should have MG quirks? And, as a MLX "main", I can confidently say that this statement is an inaccurate generalization.

To make that statement more accurate, PGI would need to check out Clan Omnipods that are limited in hardpoints and start adding appropriate quirks, and remove the So8 quirks.

[KursedVixen]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 May 2023 - 10:04 AM, said:

Do you ONLY play clans? Every post i see from you looks like it comes from the perspective of someone who literally never uses IS mechs and only clan ones. If thats true, you might want to consider you only have half the story when it comes to balance..

For the aformentioned Reason( and many others), Yes I only play clans and i prefer Inner sphere mechs with their higher armor stand in front of me. I use to play IS too untill something happened.

Do tell me what crazy quirks Clan mechs get?

Do tell me why Is mechs get a bunch of weapon quirks but clan get a max of maybe 2-3

Do tell me how clans compensate for the IS mechs much higher structure quirks

Do tell me how the IS skill tree isn't better than the clan one.

Do tell me Why Is has to have Beagle active probe the same size and weight as Clan probe....

Do terll me why Case is free for IS but still takes up a slot.

Edited by KursedVixen, 27 May 2023 - 04:04 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

KursedVixen, on 27 May 2023 - 03:49 PM, said:

For the aformentioned Reason( and many others), Yes I only play clans and i prefer Inner sphere mechs with their higher armor stand in front of me. I use to play IS too untill something happened.

Do tell me what crazy quirks Clan mechs get?

Do tell me why Is mechs get a bunch of weapon quirks but clan get a max of maybe 2-3

Do tell me how clans compensate for the IS mechs much higher structure quirks

Do tell me how the IS skill tree isn't better than the clan one.

Do tell me Why Is has to have Beagle active probe the same size and weight as Clan probe....

Do terll me why Case is free for IS but still takes up a slot.

i cant believe i have to explain this but..

• Clan weapons are lighter and smaller than IS ones, especially missiles and ACs.
  
• Clan endo steel takes 7 fewer slots than IS endo steel
  
• Clan ferro fibrous takes 7 slots and saves more weight than IS ferro at 14 slots.
  
• Clan DHS are two slots instead of 3
  
• Clan XL engines are equally sturdy to IS LFE, while being lighter.

All this combines to mean clan mechs get a huge advantage in what kinds of builds are possible. IS quirks are largely there to counteract these advantages (along with things like streaming damage ACs and missiles).

So yeah, IS mechs are generally 'tankier' due to the large structure and armour quirks, but are usually slower due to running a heavier engine and have lower firepower and worse cooling due to the slot constraints of IS DHS and weight saving tech.

[KursedVixen]

Widowmaker1981, on 28 May 2023 - 03:02 AM, said:

i cant believe i have to explain this but..

• Clan weapons are lighter and smaller than IS ones, especially missiles and ACs.
  
• Clan endo steel takes 7 fewer slots than IS endo steel
  
• Clan ferro fibrous takes 7 slots and saves more weight than IS ferro at 14 slots.
  
• Clan DHS are two slots instead of 3
  
• Clan XL engines are equally sturdy to IS LFE, while being lighter.

All this combines to mean clan mechs get a huge advantage in what kinds of builds are possible. IS quirks are largely there to counteract these advantages (along with things like streaming damage ACs and missiles).





So yeah, IS mechs are generally 'tankier' due to the large structure and armour quirks, but are usually slower due to running a heavier engine and have lower firepower and worse cooling due to the slot constraints of IS DHS and weight saving tech.

• Clan weapons are lighter and smaller than IS ones, especially missiles and ACs. Not true anymore because Case and Beagle are now the same as Clan... so that argument or point is invalid
  
• And don't get me started on range issues

Edited by KursedVixen, 28 May 2023 - 06:03 AM.

[Horseman]

First, learn to use the quote tags properly.

KursedVixen, on 28 May 2023 - 05:58 AM, said:

Not true anymore because Case and Beagle are now the same as Clan..

Second, CASE is not the same: Clan mechs get it automatically, for free, in every location. IS mechs still have to give up slots for it.

Quote

so that argument or point is invalid

Third, BAP and CAP being equalized does not invalidate change the fact that nearly every actual weapon on the Clan side is lighter and smaller than its' IS equivalent. Claiming that Clans do not have smaller and lighter weapons because a single piece of niche support equipmen has been equalized between the two techbases does nothing but make you look like a fool.

Edited by Horseman, 28 May 2023 - 07:22 AM.

[KursedVixen]

Horseman, on 28 May 2023 - 07:22 AM, said:

First, learn to use the quote tags properly.
Second, CASE is not the same: Clan mechs get it automatically, for free, in every location. IS mechs still have to give up slots for it.
Third, BAP and CAP being equalized does not invalidate change the fact that nearly every actual weapon on the Clan side is lighter and smaller than its' IS equivalent. Claiming that Clans do not have smaller and lighter weapons because a single piece of niche support equipmen has been equalized between the two techbases does nothing but make you look like a fool.

Ya sure tell me that when they make IS large lasers one slot.

[Widowmaker1981]

KursedVixen, on 28 May 2023 - 05:58 AM, said:

• Clan weapons are lighter and smaller than IS ones, especially missiles and ACs. Not true anymore because Case and Beagle are now the same as Clan... so that argument or point is invalid

I feel like you are being disingenuous here, because im being generous and assuming you arent actually stupid enough to think 1 slot / 0.5 ton saved from the BAP change is even remotely significant compared to things like ALL missiles costing HALF the weight and slots and UAC10s being 3 slots and 3 tons lighter, etc.

KursedVixen, on 28 May 2023 - 05:58 AM, said:

• And don't get me started on range issues

What range issues? The only thing i can think of is the way IS LBX ACs get 3x optimal range instead of 2x and... uh... spread weapons are not actually effective at extreme range so.. who cares?

Mostly, clans do get a range advantage over IS. Base range on the Lasers (especially large pulse), ACs and UACs is higher. Its not anything like as much as they get in TT, but we dont really want clans being OP like they are in TT, or do we (you)?

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 30 May 2023 - 03:19 AM.

[KursedVixen]

yeah but by how much?