20 replies to this topic

[Matt85]

As the title says, how is tag supposed to work?

I was playing a black lanner with streak SRMs and put a TAG on it with the idea of hunting light mechs. I was under the impression that if you had the TAG laser on a mech with ECM it would ignore his ECM and allow you to lock them with the Streak SRM's.

However, in my recent game I found that if a mech had ECM then TAG did nothing to help. I Cornered a Kit Fox, legged him, but even with TAG on him I couldn't lock him for the streaks. This was point blank range and he was pretty much holding still. This happened again later with another Kit Fox in the same game.

here is the build: bkl-d

[Aidan Crenshaw]

TAG does exactly what you believe it should, BUT it is itself affected by enemy ECM. So, when you are "low signal"ed, your TAG does nothing. You'll need an AP or ECM in counter mode to counter the enemy ECM first or stay away more than 120m, so that you are not under the "low signal" status.
In your build, the AP does nothing for you, because its ability to counter enemy ECM is disabled by your own ECM.

[Matt85]

Interesting, I had no idea that your AP is affected by your own ECM. That would be something really important to have in the text on the module! I'll swap it for a targeting computer for some extra range/velocity (or maybe more ammo).

I did try switching my ECM to "counter" on the second Kit Fox and I was still unable to lock it.

Thanks
-Matt

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Your ECM in countermode should counter the nearest ECM within 120m. Probably there was a second ECM mech around. Hard to tell without seeing it.

[Matt85]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 31 May 2023 - 02:09 AM, said:

Your ECM in countermode should counter the nearest ECM within 120m. Probably there was a second ECM mech around. Hard to tell without seeing it.

There was some weird lag during that fight as well, so it may have been related to that.

The 87th Corgi Guard (group I'm in) often does "light mech hunting" and this mech is my attempt to build something made specifically for this task. We all play fast mediums and either hunt down or lure in light mechs. It's a great deal of fun and a well laid trap that ends up working is extremely rewarding!

Edited by Matt85, 31 May 2023 - 02:23 AM.

[Storky]

Matt85, on 31 May 2023 - 12:36 AM, said:

As the title says, how is tag supposed to work?

I was playing a black lanner with streak SRMs and put a TAG on it with the idea of hunting light mechs. I was under the impression that if you had the TAG laser on a mech with ECM it would ignore his ECM and allow you to lock them with the Streak SRM's.

However, in my recent game I found that if a mech had ECM then TAG did nothing to help. I Cornered a Kit Fox, legged him, but even with TAG on him I couldn't lock him for the streaks. This was point blank range and he was pretty much holding still. This happened again later with another Kit Fox in the same game.

here is the build: bkl-d

You can't lock being countered by ECM. Streaks cannot be shot without lock ... in this game. They should work as usual SRMs.
Hence you must disable the enemy ECM by your ECM or PPC. Probably there was another ECM nearby.
By my exprience BAP can't counter ECM to let you lock. So if you are on a pure streak boat and there is a ECM nearby - you are doomed.
Its very ridiculous issue , player should be able to dumbfire the streaks.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Storky, on 31 May 2023 - 03:24 AM, said:

By my exprience BAP can't counter ECM to let you lock. So if you are on a pure streak boat and there is a ECM nearby - you are doomed.

Well, all active probes do exactly that, even up to twice the range than an ECM in countermode.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Matt85, on 31 May 2023 - 02:22 AM, said:

There was some weird lag during that fight as well, so it may have been related to that.

The 87th Corgi Guard (group I'm in) often does "light mech hunting" and this mech is my attempt to build something made specifically for this task. We all play fast mediums and either hunt down or lure in light mechs. It's a great deal of fun and a well laid trap that ends up working is extremely rewarding!

I've done this with my brother where I've run an IS stealth light and we worked together to hunt down isolated enemies. It can be pretty fun! But we haven't run that for a while, in part because our 2-man of lights gimps our team's total match tonnage more and the opportunities are just not as common as you'd like. It works best with Conquest on a larger map where you can dogfight lights in some isolation.

[Duke Falcon]

ECM is a nasty stuff. Streaks are very situational. If these two meets... Well, you already know that...
I think carry streaks worth only if your mech also has ECM or has a friendly ECM-mech to counter enemy ECM. Otherwise common SRMs may act better (less spread with Artemis).

[Storky]

Aidan Crenshaw, on 31 May 2023 - 03:45 AM, said:

Well, all active probes do exactly that, even up to twice the range than an ECM in countermode.

No, it doesn't, LBAP for sure

[Matt85]

I gave up on SSRMs, they are VERY UNRELIABLE and seem to just not work sometimes, even when I have TAG and ECM set to "counter".

I'm going with HMG and pulse lasers instead.

bkl-d
or
bkl-d
or
bkl-d

Will try each of these builds for a bit to see what I like.

Edited by Matt85, 01 June 2023 - 01:03 AM.

[Storky]

Matt85, on 01 June 2023 - 12:58 AM, said:

I gave up on SSRMs, they are VERY UNRELIABLE and seem to just not work sometimes, even when I have TAG and ECM set to "counter".

I'm going with HMG and pulse lasers instead.

bkl-d
or
bkl-d

Will try each of these builds for a bit to see what I like.

Those synergy between streaks and hitreg weapons was genious, tho.

[Matt85]

probably gonna be this:

bkl-d

or this:

bkl-d

[Erebus Alpha]

I run a steak-shadowcat - and I almost never have the issue of hostile ECM making my streaks unusable. Your loadout is only half of the equation.

TAG counters enemy ECM - but it only counters an ECM if it hits an ECM-equipped enemy unit. If you encounter a Raven (with ECM) and a Kodiak (without ECM), most pilots will engage the Kodiak first - because its obviously the much greater threat. But when you TAG a Kodiak when jammed, the enemy ECM that is causing low signal isn't being countered. Your SSRMs will not work. You need to engage the Raven instead, and the TAG will counter its ECM.

TAG also reduces missile target lock time. So unless you are shooting enemies that have no idea that you exist, always tag them.

A Beagle Active Probe or Clan Active Probe also reduces missile lock time further - and also detects shut-down enemies. So when someone overheats in front of you, you can keep pumping streaks into them. Even if you have ECM yourself, bring this piece of equipment.

Your ECM (in counter mode) or your BAP will automatically counter one nearby ECM. Your TAG can counter a second ECM. You only have a problem if three or more enemy ECMs are within 120 metes of you. If this happens, then you either messed up really bad and need to get out of the enemy murderball right now (and to hell with shooting!) - or you need to back away slightly. Your place isn't in the middle of the furball, it's at the edges of the furball, where you will be out of range of most enemy ECM's.

ECM lights will sneak in and give you low signal - but as long as you have BAP, TAG, and moderately good situational awareness, you will ruin them. If they survive initial contact with your streaks, they will spend the rest of the match in fear of you.

Edited by Falconer Sword, 08 June 2023 - 07:26 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Falconer Sword, on 08 June 2023 - 07:17 PM, said:

TAG also reduces missile target lock time. So unless you are shooting enemies that have no idea that you exist, always tag them.

Only to the extent that it allows you to lock onto an ECM target faster than without TAG. Against a normal target, there is no difference.
From the wiki "TAG is a beam style energy weapon that 'paints' a target with a targeting laser. TAG'ing a 'Mech within an ECM field allows targeting of even the ECM carrying 'Mech. Indirect targets painted by TAG are treated as if they are in direct LOS for the purposes weapon lock-on time and missile spread. TAG provides no lock-on or spread benefit for direct line of sight (LOS) targets. "

Quote

A Beagle Active Probe or Clan Active Probe also reduces missile lock time further

Again, only in the sense that it speeds up target locking against an ECM'd opponent. Otherwise, no difference in lock time. See below.

Quote

- and also detects shut-down enemies. So when someone overheats in front of you, you can keep pumping streaks into them. Even if you have ECM yourself, bring this piece of equipment.

Your ECM (in counter mode) or your BAP will automatically counter one nearby ECM. Your TAG can counter a second ECM. You only have a problem if three or more enemy ECMs are within 120 metes of you.

From the wiki again: "The active probe (called "Beagle Active Probe" (BAP) by the Inner Sphere) is an enhanced sensor suite that improves several aspects of your 'Mech's sensors.

• Able to counter the effects of 1 ECM within its radius
  
• Increases sensor range by 25%
  
• Increases information gathering rate by 25%
  
• Allows detection of shutdown 'Mechs within 120 meters for IS and 150 meters for Clan

The Clan-only light active probe has similar but weaker effects for half the weight

• Increases sensor range by 15%
  
• Increases information gathering rate by 15%
  
• Allows detection of shutdown 'Mechs within 90 meters

If both an active probe and ECM is equipped, the anti-ECM capabilities of the active probe is disabled."

Where "information gathering" is referring to the enemy mech paperdoll readout, not a missile lock.

Few players would equip both ECM and BAP/AP because the best feature is the ability to counter ECM, but this is deliberately taken away if your mech also has ECM, making it far less important to have. Best to spend that 1 ton on something else. Even if your ECM is destroyed the (B)AP won't counter ECMs the rest of the match. The ability to lock onto shutdown mechs could be useful for Streakboats, but would be a situationally specific reason to carry it and, imo, it is still best to put that ton to something else like a heatsink or medium laser. TAG + BAP or TAG + ECM is sufficient. You shouldn't need all 3.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Falconer Sword, on 08 June 2023 - 07:17 PM, said:

I run a steak-shadowcat - and I almost never have the issue of hostile ECM making my streaks unusable. Your loadout is only half of the equation.

TAG counters enemy ECM - but it only counters an ECM if it hits an ECM-equipped enemy unit. If you encounter a Raven (with ECM) and a Kodiak (without ECM), most pilots will engage the Kodiak first - because its obviously the much greater threat. But when you TAG a Kodiak when jammed, the enemy ECM that is causing low signal isn't being countered. Your SSRMs will not work. You need to engage the Raven instead, and the TAG will counter its ECM.

TAG also reduces missile target lock time. So unless you are shooting enemies that have no idea that you exist, always tag them.

A Beagle Active Probe or Clan Active Probe also reduces missile lock time further - and also detects shut-down enemies. So when someone overheats in front of you, you can keep pumping streaks into them. Even if you have ECM yourself, bring this piece of equipment.

Your ECM (in counter mode) or your BAP will automatically counter one nearby ECM. Your TAG can counter a second ECM. You only have a problem if three or more enemy ECMs are within 120 metes of you. If this happens, then you either messed up really bad and need to get out of the enemy murderball right now (and to hell with shooting!) - or you need to back away slightly. Your place isn't in the middle of the furball, it's at the edges of the furball, where you will be out of range of most enemy ECM's.

ECM lights will sneak in and give you low signal - but as long as you have BAP, TAG, and moderately good situational awareness, you will ruin them. If they survive initial contact with your streaks, they will spend the rest of the match in fear of you.

1 - TAG does not disable ECM. It makes the painted target lockable. An active enemy ECM within 120m will leave your TAG non-functional
2 - TAG does reduce missile lock time only for target not in LOS, the tagging unit is always in LOS though, and lock time doesn't get ay faster than that.
3 - An active probe does not reduce missile lock time, except minimally for IDF locks because it increases your sensor-range

[Storky]

TheCaptainJZ, on 09 June 2023 - 05:45 AM, said:

If both an active probe and ECM is equipped, the anti-ECM capabilities of the active probe is disabled."

Few players would equip both ECM and BAP/AP because the best feature is the ability to counter ECM, but this is deliberately taken away if your mech also has ECM, making it far less important to have.

It's actually unexpected case. I've tested Timber Wolf with BAP and ECM, and there was no sign that BAP is active. Even after BAP was destroyed nothing changed as well.

Another interesting effect with active BAP. Stealth armor cannot be reactivated within the BAP range. In the HUD the Stealth shown as activated. But BAP mech can still target it. ECM mech have to move outside the range or maybe just hide to fully reeactivate the Stealth.

[KursedVixen]

Matt85, on 31 May 2023 - 12:36 AM, said:

As the title says, how is tag supposed to work?

I was playing a black lanner with streak SRMs and put a TAG on it with the idea of hunting light mechs. I was under the impression that if you had the TAG laser on a mech with ECM it would ignore his ECM and allow you to lock them with the Streak SRM's.

However, in my recent game I found that if a mech had ECM then TAG did nothing to help. I Cornered a Kit Fox, legged him, but even with TAG on him I couldn't lock him for the streaks. This was point blank range and he was pretty much holding still. This happened again later with another Kit Fox in the same game.

here is the build: bkl-d

Last i recall tag shortens lock on time for missiles ,but you have to keep the tag on and pointed at the target, from what i recall tag will disable ecm for you for the duration it is pointed at an ECM mech I don't know if it cancels stealth armor but I think it allows you to target a mech with stealth armor double check me on that

I imagine tag still works within ECM range but I'm willing to guess that if your in ECM range your Tag will only allow you to target an ECM mech as ECM probably blocks the out going signal to your allies, could be wrong on that, but pretty


Narc on the other hand will never work on an ecm mech because the narc will be blocked by the ECM were as Tag does work on ecm mechs if your outside the range I think someone should do some testing on that.



Personally I never use Clan Streaks anymore since they reduced their damage awhile back...

Tag is very useful for close range missiles like streaks and ATMs to get a quick lock on or to cut through ECM.

For me personally it's not usually worth spending a energy slot and one ton for it, but that doesn't mean it's not useful i've just not found a good use for it.

Edited by KursedVixen, 15 June 2023 - 05:26 AM.

[Storky]

KursedVixen, on 15 June 2023 - 05:22 AM, said:

Narc on the other hand will never work on an ecm mech because the narc will be blocked by the ECM were as Tag does work on ecm mechs if your outside the range I think someone should do some testing on that.

On the ECM mech NARC works just like PPC but longer, as far as I tested.
But if you mean simple mech under ECM umbrella of other mech, then yes, NARC doesn't work.

Haven't tested yet a TAG without BAP, guess there is also some surprise

[BLACKR0SE]

Creating the topic was a good idea, but I think I'll just ignore all of it and go with the flow. Too many technical terms. It's a complete mess here. It's giving me a headache.