41 replies to this topic

[Haipyng]

They have always been hard to balance. Ton for ton, they are not worth taking. Situationally, they are good for bad or unobservant light pilots. The rest will keep you at range and pick you apart. Given the number of counters for lock-on weapons and the spread of Streaks, they are next to useless on mediums and junk on Heavy or Assaults.

[PocketYoda]

Funny how they derailed the convo into Bap and not Streaks the real light counter.

[Chrome Magnus]

PocketYoda, on 18 June 2023 - 06:02 PM, said:

They got nerfed badly last year by the cauldron.. many are light lovers.. so Streaks were a serious threat. They removed that threat promptly.

The fact everyone and their dog runs ECM as well especially on lights doesn't help.. Better to use Srms.

heh, a streak boat will strip one of a lights weapons arms in 2 rounds easy. Then the other just after leaving them with only torso weapons. A light vs a streaker = win to the streaker.

[LordNothing]

PocketYoda, on 20 June 2023 - 05:35 PM, said:

Funny how they derailed the convo into Bap and not Streaks the real light counter.

bap is standard equipment on a streak boat imho. otherwise a flea or any other fast ecm light can shut down your sensors all together just by closing distance, which it can do. i have use this to successfully attack streak boats who did not equip bap, though i was in t3 at the time.

wouldn't mind bringing back tag lock time buffs or add general lock time buffs to targeting computers, tag, etc. you cant touch lock mechanics without touching on the often touted but frequently neglected electronic warfare ecosystem. you dont have to go that route though, i think tweaking the lock time vs range curves to lock faster at streak ranges would not need any further changes to ew (and frankly i think it would be easier to do).

i think what happend is they tweaked the lock mechanics to "fix lerms" and forgot about the streaks, which they flat out killed with the same patch.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 June 2023 - 07:42 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Radar derp is A LOT easier for every mech to unlock, so it's no wonder lock-on sucks.

[pbiggz]

PocketYoda, on 20 June 2023 - 05:35 PM, said:

Funny how they derailed the convo into Bap and not Streaks the real light counter.

A: Pretending there arent externalities here that effect streaks is stupid
B: Shoot the light

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

PocketYoda, on 20 June 2023 - 05:35 PM, said:

Funny how they derailed the convo into Bap and not Streaks the real light counter.

the thing is: streaks aren't meant as a light-counter in the first place. neither in battletech, nor here.
it's a very loud crowd who vehemently tries to push them into that corner, that's all.


if anything, they still work too well as a light-counter and too bad in other roles. they've always been hard to balance, were too strong at several points in mwo-history and have been to weak in others.
the ONE thing constant though:
if you're not happy with em, USE SOMETHING ELSE. plenty of weapons in the game, and nobody is forced into streaks.
nobody can blame their perfomance onto them, in conclusion.
hint: many directfire-weapons out there one can TRAIN to use.

[LordNothing]

the fact that a direct fire system is better when combined with skill is kind of irrelevant. i can hit squirrels with direct fire weapons all day every day. but streaks are still bad.

should they be bad, no. bloody inefficient maybe (such as being an ammo hog), perhaps not as good as direct fire + skill, but they should be at least viable. they are hot, heavy, slow, short range, and require locks that take too long for the ranges in which they operate (and that's before you consider ew). srms, which are an order of magnitude better with modest skill require fewer sacrifices just to equip, let alone use somewhat effectively.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 June 2023 - 08:52 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Streaks should be an ideal light mech counter because it's a short range lock on weapon. Conceptually, that's a great counter to something small and fast. ECM and Stealth armor effectively negate it though and the best lights are ones that carry those things. Add radar dep on top and toss in a smaller lock angle from LRM nerfing done a while back and you get a usually useless weapon system. The suggestion above about making locks fast if you're close is a good idea to making them more useful. You can make Streaks lock on fast and have good tracking, but have a lower velocity than other missiles. But I'd like to see some changes to ECM and Stealth armor and other Info Warfare systems to make the paper-rock-scissors-lizard-spock fight less absolute and more of a gradual give and take. Maybe ECM doesn't block lock on or targeting at any range but is on a linear scale of effectiveness based on distance. Maybe Stealth armor works differently. As it stands now, a gauss or mg stealth mech doesn't generate any heat and can stay in stealth mode indefinitely. They can be very difficult to spot on dark maps. Maybe instead of heat, the drawback should be accel/decel, weapon cooldown penalty, agility, or something else.

[Ihlrath]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 21 June 2023 - 06:14 AM, said:

the ONE thing constant though:
if you're not happy with em, USE SOMETHING ELSE. plenty of weapons in the game, and nobody is forced into streaks.
nobody can blame their perfomance onto them, in conclusion.
hint: many directfire-weapons out there one can TRAIN to use.

This is the same inane response we get from the Cauldron members. The weapon system is garbage, if its in game it should be viable. There are simple ways to make it less crappy yet all we get are ERLL, ERPPC, Gauss 'balancing' and heat quirks etc on mechs for those weapons.

Recently we were given a mech with a ton of ATM quirks that should make them at least partially deadly, but with lock on and counter and spread for missile weapons still on the level of patently ridiculous, the Howl is a waste of money. Again, if a weapon system is in game it should be moderately viable for game play at all levels. Streaks, LRMS, and even ATMS are simply not when you get into higher tiers.

People should be able to use a weapon system and a game play style they enjoy and find fun, not be forced into one little niche corner. I know, I know, 'there's no long range meta' even though every game played has a multitude of blue laser vomit from 1k+

"Well that's what the ATM boost was for." - yep heard that one, but we still have to lock on and shoot with a weapon that has no arc even for those of us that have gotten good with the 'Kobe!' talent of arcing them over hills and even around slight corners at times.

"You can dead fire ATMs." -Yep, you can. However even with a locked target in their REAR arc under 200 meters I alpha blasted a Nova Cat LRM boat with 2 ATM 12s and an ATM9 twice from the Howl and it didn't die because the missiles immediately spread to hit arms and legs. It was beyond stupid and a prime example of how broken missiles are.

This needs to be addressed and 'balanced' rather than yet another ERLL, ERPPC, Gauss or laser vomit balance patch. Those weapons are in a good place. Put them down and look at something else.

Edited by Ihlrath, 21 June 2023 - 10:11 AM.

[Saved By The Bell]

I stopped use them after damage reduce. But even with 12 damage now... not.

[LordNothing]

Ihlrath, on 21 June 2023 - 09:46 AM, said:

This is the same inane response we get from the Cauldron members. The weapon system is garbage, if its in game it should be viable. There are simple ways to make it less crappy yet all we get are ERLL, ERPPC, Gauss 'balancing' and heat quirks etc on mechs for those weapons.

Recently we were given a mech with a ton of ATM quirks that should make them at least partially deadly, but with lock on and counter and spread for missile weapons still on the level of patently ridiculous, the Howl is a waste of money. Again, if a weapon system is in game it should be moderately viable for game play at all levels. Streaks, LRMS, and even ATMS are simply not when you get into higher tiers.

People should be able to use a weapon system and a game play style they enjoy and find fun, not be forced into one little niche corner. I know, I know, 'there's no long range meta' even though every game played has a multitude of blue laser vomit from 1k+

"Well that's what the ATM boost was for." - yep heard that one, but we still have to lock on and shoot with a weapon that has no arc even for those of us that have gotten good with the 'Kobe!' talent of arcing them over hills and even around slight corners at times.

"You can dead fire ATMs." -Yep, you can. However even with a locked target in their REAR arc under 200 meters I alpha blasted a Nova Cat LRM boat with 2 ATM 12s and an ATM9 from the Howl and it didn't die because the missiles immediately spread to hit arms and legs. It was beyond stupid and a prime example of how broken missiles are.

This needs to be addressed and 'balanced' rather than yet another ERLL, ERPPC, Gauss or laser vomit balance patch. Those weapons are in a good place. Put them down and look at something else.

the howl isnt so bad if you ignore the meme quirks. 2k range atms are really not that useful. you dont often have a clear line of sight that far out, and thats way out side of your lock range anyway. if you manage to use them at all, its as a map edge parasite. but you missed the fact that is a battlemech and has four ballistic points on a chassis that never really needed quirks to be viable. il see what kind of guns i can cram into it when im done goofing around with its memequirks.

besides the range isnt whats interesting, its the +40% atm velocity. you have a bigger window of time in which to get a lock and land them and less time for ams to work.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 June 2023 - 10:21 AM.

[Duke Falcon]

LordNothing, on 21 June 2023 - 10:11 AM, said:

the howl isnt so bad if you ignore the meme quirks. 2k range atms are really not that useful. you dont often have a clear line of sight that far out, and thats way out side of your lock range anyway. if you manage to use them at all, its as a map edge parasite. but you missed the fact that is a battlemech and has four ballistic points on a chassis that never really needed quirks to be viable. il see what kind of guns i can cram into it when im done goofing around with its memequirks.

besides the range isnt whats interesting, its the +40% atm velocity. you have a bigger window of time in which to get a lock and land them and less time for ams to work.

Some maps have some height points let you bombing others with ATM well out of their yonder. Especially ground-bind lights could be in danger if not protected against lock. ATMs work funny as fire in a direct line without arc but sometimes if locked they do some arcing to track targets. If you use them from "above" they not as easy to evade as LRMs. I tried it a few times with a Summoner ATMboat and usually works pretty well.

Quote

This is the same inane response we get from the Cauldron members. The weapon system is garbage, if its in game it should be viable. There are simple ways to make it less crappy yet all we get are ERLL, ERPPC, Gauss 'balancing' and heat quirks etc on mechs for those weapons.

Oh, hellyeah! Give us only PPC-boats! Lordz-o-Thunder we would be!
PPCs! PPCs everywhere!

Edited by Duke Falcon, 21 June 2023 - 11:26 AM.

[Ihlrath]

LordNothing, on 21 June 2023 - 10:11 AM, said:

the howl isnt so bad if you ignore the meme quirks. 2k range atms are really not that useful. you dont often have a clear line of sight that far out, and thats way out side of your lock range anyway. if you manage to use them at all, its as a map edge parasite. but you missed the fact that is a battlemech and has four ballistic points on a chassis that never really needed quirks to be viable. il see what kind of guns i can cram into it when im done goofing around with its memequirks.

besides the range isnt whats interesting, its the +40% atm velocity. you have a bigger window of time in which to get a lock and land them and less time for ams to work.

For the lulz of it I slapped four UAC2s and four ATM3s on it and while it's a bit ammo starved it packs a decent punch. I'd still love to see some love given to missile weapons in general, even though I know that's a pipe dream that will never happen with the current 'regime' as it were. It's pretty funny having a Timber than can somewhat chase down a fleeing light, at least for a few seconds.

[LordNothing]

i finally put four uac5s on it. works pretty good.

[Ken Harkin]

I don't need a lock time reduction, I bring my own TAG. What I need is the ability to dumb fire them just like ATMs and LRMs. Not being able to do this makes them useless in an intensive ECM and Stealth Armor scenario.

[Saved By The Bell]

Ken Harkin, on 21 June 2023 - 05:15 PM, said:

I don't need a lock time reduction, I bring my own TAG. What I need is the ability to dumb fire them just like ATMs and LRMs. Not being able to do this makes them useless in an intensive ECM and Stealth Armor scenario.

Well said!

[Storky]

PocketYoda, on 18 June 2023 - 06:02 PM, said:

They got nerfed badly last year by the cauldron.. many are light lovers.. so Streaks were a serious threat. They removed that threat promptly.

The fact everyone and their dog runs ECM as well especially on lights doesn't help.. Better to use Srms.

In 2020 I farmed 700dmg on 24cSSRM poptart almost every match aiming mechs below 70t. In 2023 on the same build a do around 400dmg.
Felt like damage is lowered, Pirahna being killed in 5 salvos instead of 3. Also this build can't do good in a nowadays poking meta.

Its really weird that it has been nerfed and almost no mechs has quirks for streaks.

[Chryckan]

Streaks are only better than SRMs in one and a half stats.

Streaks have better missile health. And the clan version a have slightly better range. That's it. So yeah at the moment they really suck, to the point of being non-functional.

That said it would be fairly simple to fix streaks so that they become a functional weapon even if they still would be a bad weapon. All it would needed was 2 things.

1. Make it able to dumbfire. That would reduce streaks to an inferior srm in a pinch but at least they would no longer be at the mercy of the locking mechanism.

2. Make the number of launchers able to fire without ghost heat the same as for SRMs. Again it would reduce streaks to an inferior SRM but at least you wouldn't be taxed twice for trying to take multiple launchers, once by the increased weight and once by the ghost heat.

I belive those two fixes would make streaks into a functional if not good weapon, while the extra heavy lanchers, the bad spread and inferior damage would still be a sufficient tax for the aimbot help of the lock on system.

Even better, it is two fixes that can be done without having to write or rewrite a bunch of code. Unlike any adjustments or changes to how the lock on mechanic work.

[LordNothing]

change a number in this xml file, change a number in that one. i dont see much of a difference. i dont even think they have access to the source code for the engine.