30 replies to this topic

[kalashnikity]

In the tool tip it says something like "heat sink in legs in water help you cool faster" Well, I tested it before and it "didn't work"

However, I just tried the deep water on forest colony classic, with my stealth fle-20 submerged and even though there are no heat sinks in me legs, it works!

I was cooling down twice as fast.

I'll need to test some other mechs, I just thought it interesting that even though the heat sinks are int he arms and torso the extra cooling effect works. Maybe the heat sink location has to be submerged, or maybe there is extra cooling regardless of HS location, you just need to be in deep water.

[LordNothing]

ive always had my doubts about this feature. but i do recall at least trying to use it in the liao jungle solaris map.

[kalashnikity]

Tested with a gargoyle with two heat sinks in legs and 4 in torso, difference in cooling is barely perceptible, so close I could barely measure it, if at all, but it does appear there is less than a 10% difference (8 seconds in water vs almost 9 on land),

I removed the torso HS and checked with only 2 in the legs, there appeared to be the same 10% (or less) difference. It went from 10 seconds in water to almost 11 on land.

Without a program to time it it was hard to measure just using the in game clock.

LordNothing, on 22 June 2023 - 12:14 PM, said:

ive always had my doubts about this feature. but i do recall at least trying to use it in the liao jungle solaris map.

I had tested it before using a direwolf and did not note any difference, but with the fle submerged there is a dramatic difference, double the cooling rate while in stealth mode.

I could see this being use to great effect.

Time to test some slightly taller mechs than the fle.

Edited by kalashnikity, 22 June 2023 - 12:37 PM.

[kalashnikity]

Tested with 2ERPPC Javelin, two double heat sinks in torso had no change, (19 seconds land/ vs 19 seconds water)

Tested with two single heat sinks in legs, got 28 seconds on land vs 24 seconds in water, so about a 15% difference.

I'm using the same location each time, a place where my Fle20 was submerged, getting the engine submerged made a massive difference. .

[kalashnikity]

Commando had an interesting result, with 4 double heat sinks in torso. (33 seconds on land vs 28 seconds in water) (measured with store's mech lab, 5 rounds of 2 SNPPC)

The commando cockpit was not submerge, about 1/3 of the torso was underwater.

I know most deep areas have the fle with a very small amount above water, and a few rare places where it is completely underwater.

[kalashnikity]

Piranha with 3 heat sinks in torso was easy to test with 5 HML alpha gave (22 seconds land vs 18 seconds water), torso was submerged up to the arm pits (about 3/4 submerged)

[Marcel Leander]

If you're trying to time it with a stop watch, you may want to stick to only single heat sinks as they dissipate more slowly than doubles. Over a longer time frame a percentage difference will become more perceptible.

In the tabletop game, a single heat sink removes 1 point of heat per turn and a double removes 2 points. Any heat sink submerged in water receives an additional 1 point or 2 points respectively, up to a cap of 6 points additional cooling. Obviously MechWarrior is an adaptation and not a direct copy of BT rules, but it's anyone's guess if the cap made the cutting room floor.

Also keep in mind that when you mouse-over your engine in the mech lab, it will tell you how many heatsinks come pre-built into the engine. Add that to the external heat sinks you place in your components to get your total heat sinks. Then once you find out how much faster you dissipate heat, you'll have to bust out your algebra to figure out how much additional cooling just the ones in the legs are giving you. Say for instance you have a C-XL 300, it has 10 heat sinks. Then you bring 2 more in the legs. Assuming you're standing leg-high in water, only 16.7% of your heat sinks (2 out of 12) are actually responsible for the increase in dissipation. If you also have your engine submerged, then those heat sinks will also possibly be gaining additional dissipation - but that's where you run into a cap if one exists.

Edited by Marcel Leander, 22 June 2023 - 01:43 PM.

[kalashnikity]

Marcel Leander, on 22 June 2023 - 01:39 PM, said:

If you're trying to time it with a stop watch, you may want to stick to only single heat sinks as they dissipate more slowly than doubles. Over a longer time frame a percentage difference will become more perceptible.

In the tabletop game, a single heat sink removes 1 point of heat per turn and a double removes 2 points. Any heat sink submerged in water receives an additional 1 point or 2 points respectively, up to a cap of 6 points additional cooling. Obviously MechWarrior is an adaptation and not a direct copy of BT rules, but it's anyone's guess if the cap made the cutting room floor.

Also keep in mind that when you mouse-over your engine in the mech lab, it will tell you how many heatsinks come pre-built into the engine. Add that to the external heat sinks you place in your components to get your total heat sinks. Then once you find out how much faster you dissipate heat, you'll have to bust out your algebra to figure out how much additional cooling just the ones in the legs are giving you. Say for instance you have a C-XL 300, it has 10 heat sinks. Then you bring 2 more in the legs. Assuming you're standing leg-high in water, only 16.7% of your heat sinks (2 out of 12) are actually responsible for the increase in dissipation. If you also have your engine submerged, then those heat sinks will also possibly be gaining additional dissipation - but that's where you run into a cap if one exists.

Good points, interesting that mechs with a partially submerged torso gave a percentage of cooling for having the torso partially submerged, if I knew where the deepest spot was I could try and fully submerge something besides a fle. I haven't tested a locust, but it should be the same as the fle.

This is an interesting mechanic, I wish there were more maps with water features, especially deep ones, that this could be used on. I was able to torment red team on Forest Colony classic with this trick, at the broken ship brawl spot in my stealth fle. .

Edited by kalashnikity, 22 June 2023 - 01:52 PM.

[Marcel Leander]

kalashnikity, on 22 June 2023 - 01:49 PM, said:

Good points, interesting that mechs with a partially submerged torso gave a percentage of cooling for having the torso partially submerged, if I knew were the deepest spot was I could try and fully submerge something besides a fle. I haven't tested a locust, but it should be the same as the fle.

Have you considered testing a mech that only has engine heat sinks to see if there's a difference, and at what depth?

[Marcel Leander]

Also pulled this from the BT Tactical Operations manual. I know that some degree of environmental temperature on heat dissipation is in effect in MWO, but I'm not personally familiar with how this is translated.

"For combat in temperatures between –30 and 50 degrees Celsius (–22 degrees and 122 degrees Fahrenheit), the environmental conditions have no impact on a game of Classic BattleTech. However, fighting in significantly higher or lower temperatures affects how well units dissipate heat and degrades the combat effectiveness of other units. For all units that track heat, for each 10 degrees C (or fraction thereof ) higher than 50 degrees, add 1 Heat Point to the unit’s overall heat buildup each turn. For every 10 degrees C (or fraction thereof ) less than –30 degrees, subtract 1 Heat Point from the unit’s overall heat build-up each turn."

[kalashnikity]

Marcel Leander, on 22 June 2023 - 01:57 PM, said:

Have you considered testing a mech that only has engine heat sinks to see if there's a difference, and at what depth?

Now I realize my gargoyle test was incomplete, I should have tried it without heat sinks in the legs too, but it cools down so fast it was hard to get a good reading.

I'll think about some options, but it looks like there isn't deep enough water for anything over 25 tons, unless anybody knows of an extra deep spot, based on the fact that the Javelin did not show a difference with torso mounted heat sinks. Nothing in the 20-25 ton range will let me mount a 250

[kalashnikity]

ETA locust and flea showed +100% cooling when completely submerged, the three 25 ton mechs could not fully submerge and they showed about +20% cooling in the spot I was at.

based on my gargoyle test I would guess around 10% (or less) extra cooling for the deepest spot, which is not extraordinary, but noteworthy. I'll try a slower cooling rmech with a 250, with and without leg heat sinks, and see what results I get.

Edited by kalashnikity, 22 June 2023 - 05:43 PM.

[kalashnikity]

test bed- Incubus with 2erppc 2hml, 250xl,

20 seconds with no extra heat sinks,

2 heat sinks in torso 17 seconds, no change in water up to top of legs (amazing how short the flea is).

2 heat sinks in legs= 17 seconds on land, 15 second in water, = +13% cooling

[kalashnikity]

test bed Mist Lynx, 2x HLL 20 seconds to complete 4 salvos for 80% heat.

Time is from end of last salvo:19 seconds on land, 15 seconds in water up to mid torso = 27% extra cooling

[kalashnikity]

I'm starting to get a better understanding on running these test, this is just using my eyeball in game to look from the heat gauge to in game clock, accuracy is not very good, I'd say +/- quarter second at best half second at worst (yes I know technically I can only use +/- one second, I was a scientist in a previous life). .

test bed Piranha 2HLL 2HML 1HSL, 180xl, 3 double heat sink in torso

Water up to arm pits.

18 seconds land, 16 seconds water = +13% cooling

moved 2 heat sinks to legs, 14 second = +29% cooling

[Marcel Leander]

kalashnikity, on 22 June 2023 - 06:02 PM, said:

2 heat sinks in legs= 17 seconds on land, 15 second in water, = +13% cooling

So no change with the engine or torso mounted heat sinks. So only the two in the legs get a bonus for water.

Okay, so here's the math. +13% cooling, or operating at 113% effectiveness over all. Multiply by the total number of heat sinks (assuming you're still using the 250 with 10) then subtract all the heat sinks that aren't contributing (everything not in the legs) then divide by the number that are contributing (the two in the legs).

(1.13 * 12 - 10) / 2 = 1.78, or a 78% increase in just the two that are actually increased.

[kalashnikity]

I know there are a few places that are well over the top of the fle (can't recall exactly where at the moment) but I am not using one of those for these test. I think one of them is on river city, not sure if there is one on Forest Colony Classic, that can be the subject of a different test run.

This location on FCC just barely covers the cockpit, so the CT mounted flamer is actually above water.

This gets interesting.

Test bed Fle-FA, 2ERLL 1 flamer- run continuously until the end of 3 salvos, 170xl, 4 single heat sinks in torso,

9 seconds for ramp up to 72% heat, 23 seconds cooldown on land

9 seconds to ramp up to 61% heat, 15 seconds cooldown in water = +52% cooling

Moved 4 single heat sinks to legs for next series... hold on to your hat...

Results while completely submerged are identical, however...

Out of curiosity I tested it at knee depth.

9 second ramp up to 65% heat, 16 seconds cooldown in water to knee = +43% cooling

Well, darn, now I had to try ankle depth

9 second ramp up to 67% heat, 19 second cooldown in water to ankle = +21% cooling

I don't consider this build to be realistic, but it showed that depth determines cooling rate.

ETA forgot to run a control on the fle-fa, I just ran it, heat sinks in torso and water to knee had no effect.

Edited by kalashnikity, 22 June 2023 - 07:21 PM.

[kalashnikity]

Marcel Leander, on 22 June 2023 - 06:43 PM, said:

So no change with the engine or torso mounted heat sinks. So only the two in the legs get a bonus for water. Okay, so here's the math. +13% cooling, or operating at 113% effectiveness over all. Multiply by the total number of heat sinks (assuming you're still using the 250 with 10) then subtract all the heat sinks that aren't contributing (everything not in the legs) then divide by the number that are contributing (the two in the legs). (1.13 * 12 - 10) / 2 = 1.78, or a 78% increase in just the two that are actually increased.

Just to be clear.

The Piranha is the tallest 20 ton, and it's head was sticking up above the water, note it did not get nearly as much cooling with torso mounted heat sinks as the completely submerged flea, nor did the leg mounted HS have as much cooling (this is probably be due to the torso not giving as much bonus)

Note the 25 ton mechs with torso mounted heat sinks had water up to their mid torso (e.g. mist lynx) and they did benefit slightly from torso mounted HS... there are a few deeper spots in one or more maps, so it would benefit more in those spots..

But when I got up to the 30 ton the torso was not submerged above the waist, where the torso twists, and they did not show benefit from torso mounted heat sinks.

If I can track down those deeper spots I'll wager the 30 ton mechs will benefit too.


ETA forgot to run a control on the fle-fa, I just ran it, heat sinks in torso and water to knee had no effect.

[kalashnikity]

Marcel Leander, on 22 June 2023 - 06:43 PM, said:

So no change with the engine or torso mounted heat sinks. So only the two in the legs get a bonus for water.

Okay, so here's the math. +13% cooling, or operating at 113% effectiveness over all. Multiply by the total number of heat sinks (assuming you're still using the 250 with 10) then subtract all the heat sinks that aren't contributing (everything not in the legs) then divide by the number that are contributing (the two in the legs).

(1.13 * 12 - 10) / 2 = 1.78, or a 78% increase in just the two that are actually increased.

I should add that it was a stock Incubus with no skills (from the store).

[Thorqemada]

Hmmm, wasnt that a feature for leg based heat sinks?

Or maybe they really track if any of the heatsinks is sumberged...

But if it is leg based it would affect 4 single heat sinks probably more than 2 double heatsinks.

And probably not all waterbodys are flagged for it i guess...