344 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

The problem with Incursion is that it confuses people. There are a lot of people who aren't really up on the why of common strategies; this leads to confusion when you throw them a curveball like Incursion. It's the same reason Conquest matches sometimes just go to hell in a handbasket because everybody scattered - and Conquest is a lot more familiar than Incursion.

[C337Skymaster]

JOATMON Incorporated, on 17 August 2023 - 09:50 AM, said:

Almost all the maps have their merits. The best maps support multiple play styles/builds on mechs. Regardless of what mech build you have with you, there is a fun spot you fight on that map. Other maps like Solaris and Alpine heavily weight towards favoring builds with a specific combat style in mind. If you happen to have the wrong setup as your mech for that fight, you are going to have a really rough time and it won't be a lot of fun. This isn't to say they are bad maps, its just that they require a much narrower set of tools to make use of them. If Alpine could have a large refinery complex put in the north or south side, so brawlers would have a spot to advance and fight, I think a lot of irritation would be faded for Alpine. This however would only work if Domination were removed from Alpine. This leads right into my next point...

As some folks have pointed out, some game modes just don't work great on some maps. If you could remove or at least weight the probability of certain game modes/maps combos happening it would be great. Additionally, for some game modes like Domination, please don't have the spot always be in the same place. Each Domination map should have like 5 possible spawn points that are equidistant from the two teams and one is selected by the game at random to be the Domination point.

Finally please bring back the old Polar Highlands map. The new one is great as its own map, but I really miss running around in the snow trenches of the original Polar Highlands in my RAC5 Urbie. I loved popping up on the steps and reenacting the trench wars from Hoth firing at enemy Atlas as they slowly lumber towards me across no man's land. The only thing would be maybe spawn the two armies a little bit closer together at the start of the match.

Void Angel, on 17 August 2023 - 11:42 AM, said:

I loved the original Polar Highlands; my experience of the people that hated it was that they would assume it was a "sniper map," and try to camp in place to shoot Gauwz Rifflez at people, and refuse to move. The problem was, there was a covered and concealed route to get most any place you wanted to go on that map - and once the enemy team got onto the same side of one of those low, rolling hills, there was no place for the snipers to run. It was the second map (the first being Viridian Bog) that strongly rewarded mobility: the side that maneuvered better tended to win.

That being said, the map had a critical failing in its near-total lack of LRM cover. If one of the randomly-selected PuG opponents had a Light to spot, it turned into a hellish slog through high-explosive rain. Kinda like brawling, sometimes:

What I wanted them to do was add raised solar panel arrays (on poles, so you could walk 'mechs under them) and deepen the trenches a bit to allow for breaking locks and sheltering from missiles, but they chose to add a ton of vertical space. The result is a map that I like, but I really miss the style of the original.

Similarly, changing Alpine around to be less "long-range required centric" would really help the map out. Maybe make two peaks, I dunno. The map is so heavily weighted toward long-range play, especially in the Quickplay environment, that it's often simply not fun to play Sometimes, you can get up the back way and wreck the enemy team that's camping on that mountain, but if your 'mech can't climb, or your team doesn't have enough short-ranged builds, it's rough. The least-fun matches I have ever had in the game are all from Alpine Peaks. Even Solaris City, often touted as a brawler-only map by its detractors, has some longer lines of sight and choke points to balance out the average engagement range.

So I'm seeing a lot of similar themes in both of these posts, and all I can think is: those areas already exist on Alpine. There's a built up town with lots of buildings and cover towards the back of the map, there are two opposing peaks which can snipe at each other (over the top of that same town, and previously with similarly vertical walls, but now with major access ramps cut in one side).

I feel as though the issue isn't so much that the map lacks the available terrain, as it is that the spawn points don't encourage its use.

I LOVE the idea of the Domination point being randomly placed, though. Something, anything, to break up the monotony of walking to the exact same microdot and ignoring 90% of the map. It's an impossibly popular game mode for some reason, though: I can reliably build up a multiplier of 8 or 9 just by voting against it, it's that common. Generally, the only time I don't play Domination is when it's not an option. So making it more varied would be very nice.

JumpingHunter, on 17 August 2023 - 03:25 PM, said:

That also is a good point. Domination simply lock matches down in the tiny circle, and everyone there are either being smelted together like fruits in kitchen blender or get sniped by those who don't participate in capture, and instead are sitting on nearvy rock and target practicing. When majority of players pilot a brawling mechs, matches become a slaughterhouse, with little to no places to regroup, and when more than half of players are snipers game becomes a sniperfest, while 2-3 guys actually run around circle trying to cap/flank/break enemy lines. On good and generally smaller maps, like Vittric Station, it works, but on larger maps that are designed around having big spaces for maneuvers it just becomes a very unnatural and forced experience.

I would suggest changing domination on some maps to this model: you get 3 or 4 smaller circles that are all required to be capped and held for 1 minute (or 30 seconds) just like original single circle. This would encourage teams to split up more, will force players to relocate from their main murderball formation to cap these circles. Ideally one lance will fight in one circle at a time, and after initial fighting is over and some circles are capped and held, players can go and either eliminate remnants of enemy team or cap hold their controlled circles. And win condition would be either if you eliminate everyone on enemy team and hold all 3 circles for equal or more time than enemy did, or if you had less time remaining on 2 circles at the end of match timer.

But it would ONLY WORK IF CIRCLES WILL BE NOT IN CENTER OF MAP! Conquest are suffering from Theta being in the center of the map, so majority of players simply walk there and make conq play as skirmish, and then lose to that one light who capped all other 4 points. If all 3 circles would be split around the map, withc NONE being near center, it would make game flow much differently from the skirmish or current domination with horrible brawling ring in center of map.

And conquest should also get some point displacement, because now it's also too center-based, most of the action often flows in the Theta point, locking game down in center of map.

So I like your plan, but it sounds oddly familiar....... Conquest already does exactly this. Now, insofar as Alpine Peaks goes, I will agree: those points need to be spread out a bit. The fact that one well-placed sniper can deny access to 4 of the 5 cap points, and only because number 5 is out at the edge of the map in no-man's land, means they're too close together and need some space.

Otherwise, this is exactly what I loved about Conquest on Polar Classic, and find boring and repetitive about Conquest on Polar Ruined, is that on Polar Classic, the cap points weren't in a cross pattern, they were in a ring, and the fight was usually a lot more dynamic depending on which way each team decided to rotate, and what cover they found.

As far as there "not being a lot of LRM cover", that was only true in the middle of Polar, which was also where the Domination Circle was set up, which, as noted above, was voted for so heavily as to be a reliable multiplier generator. If you stuck to the edges, there was (and still is) a lot more craggy terrain, larger rocks and ice chunks, and much deeper trenches where you could hide. And of course, there were the built up areas, if you had the option of camping inside one.

Ultimately, the ability to snipe on that map was definitely there. The ability to stay in the low ground and get close for a brawl was also there, and depending where you stood, LRM cover was in abundance as well. More often than not, if I brought an LRM boat to Polar, and it wasn't Domination, I had a hard time being effective until I was directly supporting a brawler as fire support because the ranges were too long, and I couldn't reach with my missiles. Once the brawl started, though, nobody's looking for cover, anymore, because you're busy dealing with the guy 200m away, and a LRM boat can be a very effective force multiplier. Same goes on any map, though, because the brawler pushes the enemy 'mech out of cover to give the LRM boat a clean shot.

[Void Angel]

C337Skymaster, on 23 August 2023 - 06:11 PM, said:

So I'm seeing a lot of similar themes in both of these posts, and all I can think is: those areas already exist on Alpine. There's a built up town with lots of buildings and cover towards the back of the map, there are two opposing peaks which can snipe at each other (over the top of that same town, and previously with similarly vertical walls, but now with major access ramps cut in one side).
[exerpted for space]
As far as there "not being a lot of LRM cover", that was only true in the middle of Polar,

Well, that's just not really true. There were a few small areas with structures, and a handful of other places that could maybe block LRM fire. But most of your defense from LRMs was concealment, not cover - all it took was one Light with the ability and inclination to spot for enemy LRMs to make your life into Blake's own hell, and there was nothing you could do about it. Remember, this was also before everyone and his freebirth uncle had ECM, too. Trying to camp a small urban area as the enemy team surrounds you and inundates the area with air and artillery strikes isn't a very fun day either; ask me how I know...

It's no good to say, "well, people just need to play with all of the map." In anything that's not skirmish, it's impossible to do that without exposing your team to the cheap objective loss. Conquest has to get points, then fight the enemy team; staying to one of the scattered areas with structures or whatnot at the edge of the map is gentle suicide by capture. Other non-Skirmish modes have the same vulnerability: ignoring objectives leads to failure, and there's no way to trek to the edge of the map for better defensive terrain and guard your base at the same time.

Original Polar was a great map with a single major flaw, but that flaw was critical. The same thing that made the map tactically different was also what made it a problem: all those long, rolling hills. What I wanted to see was trenches that were deep enough to actually shelter 'mechs sometimes, and a bunch of elevated solar panels, maintenance gantries, etc, that would essentially act as overhead cover without giving 'mechs concealment from direct fire. Alas, I was not consulted.

There's some misconception about how to play Domination here, too. Yes, you end up in generally close combat, but you don't have to just bang 'mechs together, as it were. You still need to scout, flank, etc, and the circle isn't a straightjacket. In fact, many times those guys with long-range builds who stay outside ARE participating in the capture game - because any damage done to an enemy inside the circle stops their cap. It's not going to replace 'mechs inside the control zone, but it does help, and it does channelize enemy movement, limiting maneuvers against your own teammates who are in the zone.

Edited by Void Angel, 23 August 2023 - 09:43 PM.

[KursedVixen]

if this is a thing cap assist should not make the cap point in domination go faster already i've played 2 games where i couildn't even get to the point in a light,,, and sometimes we have no light mech....

[C337Skymaster]

Void Angel, on 23 August 2023 - 09:41 PM, said:

Well, that's just not really true. There were a few small areas with structures, and a handful of other places that could maybe block LRM fire. But most of your defense from LRMs was concealment, not cover - all it took was one Light with the ability and inclination to spot for enemy LRMs to make your life into Blake's own hell, and there was nothing you could do about it. Remember, this was also before everyone and his freebirth uncle had ECM, too. Trying to camp a small urban area as the enemy team surrounds you and inundates the area with air and artillery strikes isn't a very fun day either; ask me how I know...

It's no good to say, "well, people just need to play with all of the map." In anything that's not skirmish, it's impossible to do that without exposing your team to the cheap objective loss. Conquest has to get points, then fight the enemy team; staying to one of the scattered areas with structures or whatnot at the edge of the map is gentle suicide by capture. Other non-Skirmish modes have the same vulnerability: ignoring objectives leads to failure, and there's no way to trek to the edge of the map for better defensive terrain and guard your base at the same time.

Original Polar was a great map with a single major flaw, but that flaw was critical. The same thing that made the map tactically different was also what made it a problem: all those long, rolling hills. What I wanted to see was trenches that were deep enough to actually shelter 'mechs sometimes, and a bunch of elevated solar panels, maintenance gantries, etc, that would essentially act as overhead cover without giving 'mechs concealment from direct fire. Alas, I was not consulted.

There's some misconception about how to play Domination here, too. Yes, you end up in generally close combat, but you don't have to just bang 'mechs together, as it were. You still need to scout, flank, etc, and the circle isn't a straightjacket. In fact, many times those guys with long-range builds who stay outside ARE participating in the capture game - because any damage done to an enemy inside the circle stops their cap. It's not going to replace 'mechs inside the control zone, but it does help, and it does channelize enemy movement, limiting maneuvers against your own teammates who are in the zone.

Conquest on Old Polar was the absolute best form of both that map, and that mode. It forced the team to spread out and use the WHOLE map, and both Theta and Epsilon were near areas with significant LRM cover. It was also the widest spread between cap points, but still with multiple avenues to get there (you could sneak through trenches around the edge, or speed across the middle, out in the open, where the distances were enough that even out in the open, you're still max weapon range from most of the fighting). Grim Plexus has similar distances between cap points, but much more in the way, dramatically restricting your pathing options.

I've only gotten surrounded in the buildings on Polar once, and only because our team was spending more time hiding than shooting. As long an active firing line can be maintained, you can snipe at flankers, and prevent yourself from getting surrounded.

As for LRM cover, I only remember getting absolutely obliterated by LRMs during Domination matches, when I had to be even MORE exposed in order to get to harder cover (of which there was quite a bit, just outside the circle, but again: on the other side of even more open ground, thus dangerous to get to).

On anything other than Domination, LRM carriers were generally out of range for most of the match, and once they got within range, they were close enough to be pushed and brawled. UAVs were dangerous on that map, but if you kept your eye on the sky (especially if you had arm-mounted PPCs or lasers), you could keep your team covered from those.

Was there as much LRM cover on Polar as on Viridian, or old Canyon? No. But there wasn't "none" either, and it wasn't completely inaccessible to anything going faster than about 81 kph.

[Just One Doane]

In my opinion, the maps overall are very good. My only complaint is that many old maps had to go away for new maps. I love the new Polar Highlands, but I also enjoyed the old one. Looking at the poll results as of today, I think a lot of the feedback on maps can be explained as 'can I run into the middle of the map and brawl, or set up to snipe the middle of the map because I know exactly where the enemy team is going to go every time?' If yes, then the map is good. If no, or I have to walk a long distance for this to happen, then no. I LOVE the cat and mouse games that can occur on the bigger maps when you don't always know where the enemy is going to be. I believe the bigger issue, and a solution to a lot of the feedback I see for the game all over, is to address the game modes.

Skirmish - On the larger maps, vary the spawn locations to encourage engagements somewhere besides the approximate center of the map. This can also occasionally be used to place the teams closed together. While it can be rewarding to have more time to set up, it is nice once and awhile to get the action going faster on the bigger maps.

Domination - Similar to Skirmish, I think changing up the location of the domination circle would help open up new tactical and strategic choices. Also, I would love to see the circle not be a circle. Customizing the shape to conform to the map would also help the action. For example, on Mining Collective, Domination should only count the top tier platform in the center. No single mechs just hiding out on the lower tier should be able to keep the clock from moving. On Alpine Peaks, utilizing a structure grouping, and making you have to have a mech in amongst the buildings would really up the action and pressure.

Assault - As with Skirmish, move and focus the spawn points (at least some of the time) in specific areas of bigger maps to create more urgent action while still allowing options for long flanks to get to a base.

Conquest - I don't think any major changes need to made, other than some general feedback to incentivize objectives more across all game modes. This is by far the most diverse mode in the game. This is for two reasons I believe. 1) It is the only mode that truly rewards light mechs for doing light mech things, scouting, recon, and picking off lone assaults is so much more meaningful here because in every other game mode, 95%+ of the time the teams are always going to go to the exact same spots. And 2) It is the only mode that players generally play to the mode. Assault and Domination are just skirmish 90% of the time or more.

Incursion - I think this mode is great, but most people just don't see it enough to even understand the options. I can't remember a game of this where at least one person on my team genuinely has no idea what's going on. Biggest issue here I believe is just incentivizing playing the objectives more (As with all modes, doing lots of damage and kills is more rewarding to the player than capping or hitting the base, win or lose.) And here's a big one, I think: Move all base turrets to the outside of the walls, and buff their durability. Teams would be more likely yo try and defend if they have help defending the actual wall. Players should also be rewarded for getting around/through the walls by having free reign inside the enemies base. It is SOOO anti-climactic to lose the game because you wipe the enemy team and then have a turret get the win.

I would also love to see new general game modes, in addition to the cool options being thrown in for the event queue. An escort mode, or a capture the flag would provide more variety.

As always, keep up the awesome work!

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 23 August 2023 - 09:49 PM, said:

if this is a thing cap assist should not make the cap point in domination go faster already i've played 2 games where i couildn't even get to the point in a light,,, and sometimes we have no light mech....

It doesn't, to the best of my knowledge. The number of people in the circle doesn't matter either. Were you in a fast light, or a middle-speed, 104 kph or so? Seems incredible that any Light couldn't get to the control zone before cap, though... You should report it as a bug.

[KursedVixen]

Just One Doane, on 24 August 2023 - 05:29 AM, said:

In my opinion, the maps overall are very good. My only complaint is that many old maps had to go away for new maps. I love the new Polar Highlands, but I also enjoyed the old one. Looking at the poll results as of today, I think a lot of the feedback on maps can be explained as 'can I run into the middle of the map and brawl, or set up to snipe the middle of the map because I know exactly where the enemy team is going to go every time?' If yes, then the map is good. If no, or I have to walk a long distance for this to happen, then no. I LOVE the cat and mouse games that can occur on the bigger maps when you don't always know where the enemy is going to be. I believe the bigger issue, and a solution to a lot of the feedback I see for the game all over, is to address the game modes.

Skirmish - On the larger maps, vary the spawn locations to encourage engagements somewhere besides the approximate center of the map. This can also occasionally be used to place the teams closed together. While it can be rewarding to have more time to set up, it is nice once and awhile to get the action going faster on the bigger maps.

Domination - Similar to Skirmish, I think changing up the location of the domination circle would help open up new tactical and strategic choices. Also, I would love to see the circle not be a circle. Customizing the shape to conform to the map would also help the action. For example, on Mining Collective, Domination should only count the top tier platform in the center. No single mechs just hiding out on the lower tier should be able to keep the clock from moving. On Alpine Peaks, utilizing a structure grouping, and making you have to have a mech in amongst the buildings would really up the action and pressure.

Assault - As with Skirmish, move and focus the spawn points (at least some of the time) in specific areas of bigger maps to create more urgent action while still allowing options for long flanks to get to a base.

Conquest - I don't think any major changes need to made, other than some general feedback to incentivize objectives more across all game modes. This is by far the most diverse mode in the game. This is for two reasons I believe. 1) It is the only mode that truly rewards light mechs for doing light mech things, scouting, recon, and picking off lone assaults is so much more meaningful here because in every other game mode, 95%+ of the time the teams are always going to go to the exact same spots. And 2) It is the only mode that players generally play to the mode. Assault and Domination are just skirmish 90% of the time or more.

Incursion - I think this mode is great, but most people just don't see it enough to even understand the options. I can't remember a game of this where at least one person on my team genuinely has no idea what's going on. Biggest issue here I believe is just incentivizing playing the objectives more (As with all modes, doing lots of damage and kills is more rewarding to the player than capping or hitting the base, win or lose.) And here's a big one, I think: Move all base turrets to the outside of the walls, and buff their durability. Teams would be more likely yo try and defend if they have help defending the actual wall. Players should also be rewarded for getting around/through the walls by having free reign inside the enemies base. It is SOOO anti-climactic to lose the game because you wipe the enemy team and then have a turret get the win.

I would also love to see new general game modes, in addition to the cool options being thrown in for the event queue. An escort mode, or a capture the flag would provide more variety.

As always, keep up the awesome work!

we had escort it sucked.

without multiple lives CTF would get boring fast.

Edited by KursedVixen, 24 August 2023 - 02:12 PM.

[JumpingHunter]

KursedVixen, on 24 August 2023 - 02:12 PM, said:

we had escort it sucked.

without multiple lives CTF would get boring fast.

For CTF we have a groundbreaking concept of drop deck, which is exactly the "multiple lives" system you are talking about. It is even better than just respawning, as you can actually switch roles after your death, if you need some defense you get the assault and go defend base, if you need capping you go light and try to sneak to enemy flag, if you need some holding ground action you get faster heavy or medium and tie enemy in a fight, so i think CTF would actually have been decent gamemode.

[C337Skymaster]

KursedVixen, on 24 August 2023 - 02:12 PM, said:

we had escort it sucked.

without multiple lives CTF would get boring fast.

Escort was the victim of the fact that that was literally PGI's first attempt at AI programming (besides simple targeting for the turrets, which were always 100% accurate). If it had been more interactive, like the MFB's from MechWarrior 3, which, while they followed pre-programmed paths, traveled to locations only when assigned by the player (in MWO it could have been whoever assumed Company Command), and to the specific location assigned by the player (Company Commander). If there could have been a way for one player to take command and "steer" the VIP, that could easily have saved the mode from the complete disdain that it received. Further, if there was an actual convoy, instead of an impotent Atlas, and if that convoy included refit vehicles that could actually repair the defenders, but required some give-and-take as to whether they would make the rendezvous in time, that could have made the defenders more interested in keeping the convoy alive, but still prevented them from camping out for repairs and whittling the attackers down to nothing. With repairs, you wouldn't need sensor towers or turrets, either. You could just defend your repair trucks and get them to their destination without allowing them to blaze on ahead of a static firing line.

[KursedVixen]

C337Skymaster, on 26 August 2023 - 07:22 PM, said:

Escort was the victim of the fact that that was literally PGI's first attempt at AI programming (besides simple targeting for the turrets, which were always 100% accurate). If it had been more interactive, like the MFB's from MechWarrior 3, which, while they followed pre-programmed paths, traveled to locations only when assigned by the player (in MWO it could have been whoever assumed Company Command), and to the specific location assigned by the player (Company Commander). If there could have been a way for one player to take command and "steer" the VIP, that could easily have saved the mode from the complete disdain that it received. Further, if there was an actual convoy, instead of an impotent Atlas, and if that convoy included refit vehicles that could actually repair the defenders, but required some give-and-take as to whether they would make the rendezvous in time, that could have made the defenders more interested in keeping the convoy alive, but still prevented them from camping out for repairs and whittling the attackers down to nothing. With repairs, you wouldn't need sensor towers or turrets, either. You could just defend your repair trucks and get them to their destination without allowing them to blaze on ahead of a static firing line.

the vehicles would need some decent armor to not be destroyed by a single Ac-20

[Void Angel]

I really doubt that you'd find enough players willing to drive the Escort 'mech instead of playing their own - but I did like some things about Escort, because it broke up the static gameplay that was so prevalent at the time. So often players would just go to the strong points they knew on that map, and refuse to move. Escort punished that behavior; you had to move ahead of the VIP 'mech and proactively take ground, or the enemy would work over the escorted Atlas in short order.

No level or armor is likely correct for that Escort Atlas, because players at different points on the skill curve will be using different-quality loadouts, marksmanship, and tactics. But I think the insurmountable problem with Escort is that players couldn't control the progress of the VIP. There's not a good way I can think of to adjudicate that process either. If control goes to the company commander, well... that's just who loaded in fast enough to hit that button first. So now people with slower machines/bandwidth who don't load in fast enough often can't play that bit of the game; the quality of self-selected Escort tacticians will be wildly variable; and you're also creating a mission-critical role and placing it in the hands of one person...

It's a thorny problem, and I don't see a clear solution - but I do miss things about that mode.

[C337Skymaster]

Void Angel, on 27 August 2023 - 06:45 PM, said:

I really doubt that you'd find enough players willing to drive the Escort 'mech instead of playing their own - but I did like some things about Escort, because it broke up the static gameplay that was so prevalent at the time. So often players would just go to the strong points they knew on that map, and refuse to move. Escort punished that behavior; you had to move ahead of the VIP 'mech and proactively take ground, or the enemy would work over the escorted Atlas in short order.

No level or armor is likely correct for that Escort Atlas, because players at different points on the skill curve will be using different-quality loadouts, marksmanship, and tactics. But I think the insurmountable problem with Escort is that players couldn't control the progress of the VIP. There's not a good way I can think of to adjudicate that process either. If control goes to the company commander, well... that's just who loaded in fast enough to hit that button first. So now people with slower machines/bandwidth who don't load in fast enough often can't play that bit of the game; the quality of self-selected Escort tacticians will be wildly variable; and you're also creating a mission-critical role and placing it in the hands of one person...

It's a thorny problem, and I don't see a clear solution - but I do miss things about that mode.

Did you ever play MechWarrior 3? If not, go look up a Let's Play video on YouTube. It was really cool, and really well done, and the nostalgia for that game is a lot of the complaints that have been leveled against PGI over the years.

In summary, the player never "drove" the MFB. You simply instructed it to "go here", and it would follow a pre-programmed path to get there. But there were multiple spots on the map you could tell it to go, and you'd just cycle through them until you found the one you wanted, and it would drive itself and set up for repairs. From there, the first 'mech that shut down on the mark in the middle would get their armor and ammo refreshed (within the limits of whatever you had in inventory, and not by full tons. If you had 26 LRMs and 42 pts of that armor type in stock, then you'd get refreshed with 26 missiles and 42 pts of armor).

So all the guy with Company Command would do is open their battlegrid, use the MFB controls to say "go here", and wait for it to drive there. That way, they could avoid the front line combat area, they could have the MFB hold back from a determined offensive, have it drive a way that made sense, and that wasn't currently contested, but then resume fighting.

The main complaint with the VIP was that it was dumb as a box of rocks. It'd walk (always slowly) right into an enemy firing line like it didn't even know or care that they were there. Or it'd get stuck on terrain (I remember losing a match after we obliterated the attackers because it was stuck up against one of the low bridges at the back of Crimson Strait, so it would "never make the drop zone in time").

No, having one player set aside to drive the VIP is what Critical Rocket and company did when they invented the game mode that PGI later ripped off from his Twitch streams. I still think the convoy should be AI, but controllable AI, like in MechWarrior 3, not completely boneheaded AI that won't take suggestion.

EDIT: I found an example of the MFB being called:
https://youtu.be/Idp...gB5gn-zY&t=1195

The key things to focus on are the grey circle that shows up on his radar in the corner, and the fact that it changes location, then the green dot on the ground near the target he walks towards, and the three trucks that come up and take up positions around that green circle, all while he's still piloting his 'mech.

He goes in for repairs at 22:30, and comes out at 23:00, so watch at least that much, and you'll see how the MFB worked, and what I had in mind for MWO's Escort mode.

Edited by C337Skymaster, 28 August 2023 - 01:19 AM.

[Void Angel]

".. we will take to the field against the Clans, and explain to them the true meaning of honour and justice in a way they are sure to understand."

Yes, I may have enjoyed MW3.

The problem with having either direct or AI control of the escort 'mech is that you then have to decide which player controls it - players may not want to "get stuck" with the escort, having a troll (or, frankly, an idiot) pilot it will be frustrating, and if it's automated, it'll still be vulnerable to intelligent players' fire.

Edited by Void Angel, 29 August 2023 - 04:48 PM.

[C337Skymaster]

Void Angel, on 29 August 2023 - 04:32 PM, said:

".. we will take to the field against the Clans, and explain to them the true meaning of honour and justice in a way they are sure to understand."

Yes, I may have enjoyed MW3.

The problem with having either direct or AI control of the escort 'mech is that you then have to decide which player controls it - players may not want to "get stuck" with the escort, having a troll (or, frankly, an idiot) pilot it will be frustrating, and if it's automated, it'll still be vulnerable to intelligent players' fire.

That part's (kind of) easy: the Company Commander takes control, and if there is no Company Commander, then it defaults to the original VIP AI. Gives the players some incentive to take Company Command if they can override the original VIP AI.

Unfortunately, there's not really any way to get around a troll or idiot player, apart from the whole team reporting him for assisting the enemy...

[Void Angel]

That... doesn't solve the problem - it just punishes people for not taking the hit for the team. The problems of self-selecting idiots and not getting to play the 'mech you brought still remain.

[C337Skymaster]

Void Angel, on 31 August 2023 - 01:09 PM, said:

That... doesn't solve the problem - it just punishes people for not taking the hit for the team. The problems of self-selecting idiots and not getting to play the 'mech you brought still remain.

I'm not getting where you're coming from. You're not driving the convoy like a toy train or RC car. You're telling it "go here", and it goes there. The way I wanted to do it, once it gets there, someone can even repair: get an ammo and armor reset. You shouldn't have time to do more than half the defenders that way before you're out of time to get to the destination, so you do have to watch the clock, and triage repairs, but you tell the convoy "go here" and it goes, and then you go fight. Periodically, you check on its position (you're escorting it, remember?) and based on where the enemy is, you tell it to go somewhere else. The team knows where the pickup site will be (unlike PGI's original Escort mode), and has a timer indicating when the dropship will leave, so they can know how fast or slow to go and whether they'll make it or not.

Maybe you need to go back and play MW3 again. You have a considerable amount of control over the MFBs, and you still get to do most, if not all, of the fighting. You make sure they stay away from it, clear them a path, then call them up to different points along the map. I simply propose the same thing in MWO, and I'm really, REALLY confused about why you think the person who takes Company Command won't get to play the 'mech they brought? Have you ever taken Company Command before? Try it, sometime. It might surprise you.

No matter what the mode, we're not immune from trolls and idiots, but the higher you climb in the tiers, the more you can get away from them. Trolls, in particular.

Heck, just taking a LRM boat to Solaris means you "don't get to play the 'mech you brought", and yet you do: set yourself up in an area with good distance and sight lines, and you can rack up a normal match's worth of damage and kills in a LRM boat on Solaris. Same with Escort: keep track of the convoy that you're escorting, and also keep track of the enemy and shoot them every now and then.

Honestly, an Escort mission won without a shot fired should be some sort of insane payout, because that's the ultimate goal of escorting a high value target.

[C337Skymaster]

the check engine light, on 31 August 2023 - 08:27 PM, said:

Anything that assumes that just because people are thrown into a drop together that they trust each other enough to coordinate and cooperate with recognized competent commanders, and that competent commanders will take command, is completely DOA. That's not how QP typically works.



OpFor has to be impossibly incompetent to not accomplish landing a single shot. Anything that assumes complete and utter incompetence by OpFor is DOA. Never ever bank on OpFor being stupid.

No, but in most cases, where we now have Soup queue, someone from the group will probably be commanding them, and will probably try to take command so the four of them can try to do the whole thing by themselves while the rest of the team runs off to find the enemy and fight.

And yes, I don't think I had ANY mission where there was never a single shot fired, except for the occasional Domination mission where someone going 170 KPH gets there, and the fastest guy on the other team tops out at 81.

I DID have an Escort Mission on Polar Highlands where the VIP did a U-turn partway into the map, and wound up only about 400m along the edge from where we started, getting picked up. The enemy never saw him, but our guys ran off to fight because radar towers and such, we had some idea where they were and where to go for a scrap.

Besides: team building exercise. This is supposed to be a team game, so if you've got a mode that forces everyone to work together, maybe they'll get used to it, again.

[C337Skymaster]

the check engine light, on 01 September 2023 - 07:51 AM, said:

I really think you would be surprised at how many people actively resist teamwork. It can be a case of too many cooks in the kitchen at times, groups intent on doing their own thing and screw everyone else, people who don't even care about wlr - only MS and kdr, and generally spiteful types.

You're probably right, but it's depressing that you should be so in a game so heavily dependent upon teamwork...

[Grey Hook]

JumpingHunter, on 22 August 2023 - 02:08 AM, said:

So basically incursion is too complicated for some players, and they are making it unbalanced and hard to play properly for everyone else by not participating in a first place.

Void Angel, on 22 August 2023 - 12:22 PM, said:

The problem with Incursion is that it confuses people. There are a lot of people who aren't really up on the why of common strategies; this leads to confusion when you throw them a curveball like Incursion. It's the same reason Conquest matches sometimes just go to hell in a handbasket because everybody scattered - and Conquest is a lot more familiar than Incursion.

I've griped about this before, but I'll toss it in again: I do not think Incursion is too complicated for most MWO players to grasp. I think it is too complicated to grasp intuitively, without any instruction or explanation. The little blurb that appears on-screen right before the drop does not explain what all the extra information on the HUD refers to, what the various towers do or even look like, etc. There is nowhere for players- especially new players- to find clear, officially-accurate information that they can then use to form a strategy.

PGI could make huge strides toward "fixing" this game mode by simply explaining it.

Having this info form part of the Academy would be ideal, but even creating some simple text-and-picture pages with easy-to-find links on the game's website would be a vast improvement. Bonus points if they are findable in-game too, and the info is actually kept current.