48 replies to this topic

[VeeOt Dragon]

some points were brought up in another thread concerning Beagle Active Probe and other electric warfare equipment and i thought i might start a thread where me might discuss how it can be improved. we all know that there is a massive amount of ECM on the field today with no real counter to overlapping ECM coverage.

a few suggestions were talked about in this other thread but i will start with the main one. that is an enhancement to BAP. the idea is to enhance the BAP so that it cancels ECM better. that is that it completely negates all ECM not just a single mech. now this might make it overpowered even if its in a limited range (say 350m) so i would propose that it only effects the mech that carries it. as it currently stands if a mech as ECM and is in the range of another mech's ECM things like TAG and NARC are useless as they only counter one source. if programing the game so it only has effects for the one mech carrying the BAP is to intensive then have it only effect a mech you have a lock on that is within your sensor range.

when it comes to support equipment you rarely if ever see any builds suggested that use BAP or TCs. ECM is always a must on mechs that carry it. hell AMS is also rarely taken unless its something like the Corsair-7A that can take 4 but this is outside the scope of the conversation i hope to have.

so Long story short what can we do it improve the EW aspect of the game? also what can be done to perhaps lessen the effects of the over abundance of ECM on the field without nerfing ECM itself?

(Side note--lets try to keep the hatred for LRM and other lock-on weapons out of the conversation)

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 01 August 2023 - 03:50 PM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

TCs get used sparingly, mostly on laser builds. They have little practical use outside of that and anything bigger than a TC1 requires a really specialized or off the wall build (or nothing better to spend tonnage and crits on).

BAP absolutely needs something more.

One of the problems with ECM bubbles is murderball. This organically leads to clusters of overlapping ECM.

What if you removed ECM bubble, but made ECM effects targetable? Perhaps a mode switch. Remove ECM's Counter ability, make it switch between localized smaller bubble and targeted fuzz. Or something. BAP becomes the counter module. There's no reason to have BAP if you have ECM right now.

Edited by the check engine light, 01 August 2023 - 04:40 PM.

[SafeScanner]

What ecm does (pulled from MechDB)

Disrupt mode has four functions:

• ECM "cloaks" the mech, reducing the range at which enemy sensors can detect the mech carrying ECM.
  
• ECM disrupts the sensors of mechs within 120m, resulting in a "low signal" warning and an inability to achieve a missile lock.
  
• ECM slows indirect-fire missile locks, but has no effect on missile locks where the opponent has line of sight ("direct fire").
  
• The mech produces an “ECM bubble,” applying the same ECM effects to teammates within range.

The cloaking effect is highly dependent on skill nodes. Without skill nodes, ECM reduces detection range by 30%. With the two 22.5% skill nodes, it reduces detection range by 75%. For example, an unskilled ECM-carrying mech can be detected by default within 560m (70% of 800m), and a skilled ECM-carrying mech can be detected within 200m. ECM impacts missile lock speed for indirect fire even if you can target the ECM mech. For example, if a target has ECM and a friendly mech is targeting it and sharing the target lock, then your indirect missile lock speed is going to be four times slower (i.e., at 25% rate) compared to a case when the target has no ECM in indirect lock mode.

ECM Low Signal Effect

Another effect of ECM is that nearby enemies (within 120m) receive a “low signal” notification if the ECM is in "disrupt" mode. This has several effects:

• Mechs under a "low signal" warning cannot lock their missile weapons
  
• Mechs under a "low signal" warning cannot share targeting information with other mechs
  
• Mechs under a "low signal" warning will lose the Artemis effect on their missile weapons

The "low signal" notification also alerts opponents to the presence of a nearby ECM mech. This appears as a "LOW SIGNAL" warning in the affected mech's HUD, over the mini battlegrid and over the paper doll of a targeted mech:

Edited by SafeScanner, 01 August 2023 - 04:38 PM.

[SafeScanner]

If i were possible i would like to see Low signal have 3 teirs staggering its effects over 120m including allies within

[VeeOt Dragon]

i kind of like that idea of staggering the effectiveness of ECM (on allied mechs) based on how far they are from the mech carrying it. though i am not sure how easy this would be on the programing end of things.

but i still want to see more ideas as to how we can make other equipment worth taking. (this may also help in a round about way of lessening the alpha bloat we have been seeing in that the equipment mentioned will take up space and tonnage that would be used for weapons or ammo)

[LordNothing]

nerf target sharing. must install c3 to share locks at range. perhaps some short range target sharing and sharing from other equipment. but you need c3 to transmit across the map. (in before some lore pedant objects. the point is to make missile boaters more pro-active and less reliant on free targeting data, and in exchange get a bunch of other lerm buffs).

make ew equipment actually useful. especially bap, narc and tag.
make tag useful for self-locking, especially for streaks. restore lock time buffs.
make narc lighter and more ammo/t, reduce cd and buff hitpoints so it can survive 2 ams units.
buff bap and add bhp for even greater buffs.
make targeting computers help missiles. as far as i know, they dont.
command console, make it lighter or make it worth 3t.
upgradable sensors, eg tacticon (make it purchasable).

add aecm, ecm nerfs on gecm. no bubble casting in disrupt mode, it only protects your mech. counter bubble might get enlarged. you have to install the bigger aecm to get good ecm that can cast a bubble (im for a full 180m).

implement mml in the weapons pass, then make lerms rangy again, put the high arc back. mmls/atms can handle intermediate range combat with middle atm style arc. perhaps artemis can keep the dynamic arc as a feature specific to artemis. if you also give clans streak lrms, have those be a flat arc option. this gives guided missile users some options wrt their play style.

consumable: drone. like a uav but flies forward slowly once deployed until it gets shot down or exits the combat zone.
consumable: sat scan, sweep the entire map quickly reveling mechs for a couple seconds.

buff lights and give specific lights scoring quirks for scouting behaviors. make it at least competitive with damage to run a dedicated intel boat. bring back dedicated scouting role in a big way and dont punish their scores/psr for doing so. this is the main reason why ew fails. players dont get paid and are forced to direct fire boat and that turns the game into a depthless, soulless pixel alignment game.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 August 2023 - 05:23 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i wouldn't mind a C3 so much if it was done right. no more than 1t and giving similar buffs to the command console (though to a lesser degree perhaps. if all it does is allow for sharing locks then no more 0.25t. either way only taking a single slot.). trouble with getting direct LOS locks is that you have to face time an enemy long enough that they can completely destroy you before you can get off a single volley let alone more than one. LOS lock times would have to be shortened considerably if you got ride target sharing.

[sycocys]

ECM is done much better in MW5 - just putting that out there since so many here are dead set stuck on arguing against having this game rebuilt or redesigned on a new engine because they'd have to start over (this game iteration will end at some point) and/or actually have to pay something for the game.

Just saying a lot of these problems are solve-able when you are running on an engine where the programmers are actually capable of programming for it, some of them are already at least partially solved.

--
As far as BAP goes, I run it and recommend it for probably 90% of builds. It's 1 ton for free match points and extended sensor range. Even at 1.5 tons it was worth it because you have that much extra range to route your positioning.

[ThreeStooges]

1. Make narc NOT have the LONGEST CD in the whole game. Name any weapon that takes seven seconds or more before you can use it again. Even with the best missile quirk cool down AND skill tree cool down (stacking both) the best you can get narc is down to five seconds on an extremely very few mechs which leaves the mech very under-guned and weak.

2. Make the ppc ecm cancel effect last longer. 10-15 seconds.W of Warships has a lot longer cds than mwo.

3. Make Tags stack to a limit of three making them get locks faster. If you have three mechs all taging an ecm that ecm-less mech should be moving to get the tags off it as missile fly after it.

[Saved By The Bell]

I using LRM mechs sometimes, all with BAP and TC and skills. So I know, the situation.

So my idea was, that only mech with BAP (not teammates without BAP) can ignore all ECM bubble, or at least, reduce ECMs effect for owner of BAP.

Edited by Saved By The Bell, 01 August 2023 - 10:51 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Do it like Tabletop BattleTech is supposed to be.

Guardian-ECM is personal ECM only, so there is no bubble, its only large enough to cover the equipped mech.

Angel-ECM is the bubble version, and it is heavier slightly.

I think ECM overlap should be removed entirely, so BAP and CBAP/CLAP should knockout all nearby ECM equipped mechs, it shouldn't be a 1-1 ratio to counter.

That, or Narc should at the minimum provide at least the Counter-ECM, same as if you toggle to ECM counter mode for cbill/match score. It should not be LRM damage exclusive.

Also Stealth should not cast any ECM interference nor bubble.
Stealth should just block targeting, and heat vision unless its disabled by Tag, PPC's, NARC or when the player toggles it off.

I would also be very excited to see Ranged target info sharing, C3 computers had a purpose, it was called balance.

Edited by Cyborne Elemental, 01 August 2023 - 11:31 PM.

[LordNothing]

sycocys, on 01 August 2023 - 06:38 PM, said:

ECM is done much better in MW5 - just putting that out there since so many here are dead set stuck on arguing against having this game rebuilt or redesigned on a new engine because they'd have to start over (this game iteration will end at some point) and/or actually have to pay something for the game.

Just saying a lot of these problems are solve-able when you are running on an engine where the programmers are actually capable of programming for it, some of them are already at least partially solved.

--
As far as BAP goes, I run it and recommend it for probably 90% of builds. It's 1 ton for free match points and extended sensor range. Even at 1.5 tons it was worth it because you have that much extra range to route your positioning.

i dont think anyone is deadset against a new engine, shut up and take my money. best possibilities are a pvp version of mw5. probibly not a dlc but a stand alone game derived from mw5 under the latest ue. as close to a new game as you can get. single purchase supported by dlc would be a lot easier to swallow than another f2p.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 August 2023 - 12:00 AM.

[Curccu]

sycocys, on 01 August 2023 - 06:38 PM, said:

As far as BAP goes, I run it and recommend it for probably 90% of builds. It's 1 ton for free match points and extended sensor range. Even at 1.5 tons it was worth it because you have that much extra range to route your positioning.

Right now unless I'm running lock-on weapons with that 1 ton I can have a heatsink, TC1, 1 ton of ammo, 2-0,5 jump jets and all of those are more valuable to me in 99,9% of my builds than extra sensor range unless I'm running Lurms/ATMs.

[Curccu]

Cyborne Elemental, on 01 August 2023 - 11:25 PM, said:

Do it like Tabletop BattleTech is supposed to be.

Guardian-ECM is personal ECM only, so there is no bubble, its only large enough to cover the equipped mech.

Angel-ECM is the bubble version, and it is heavier slightly.

I think ECM overlap should be removed entirely, so BAP and CBAP/CLAP should knockout all nearby ECM equipped mechs, it shouldn't be a 1-1 ratio to counter.

That, or Narc should at the minimum provide at least the Counter-ECM, same as if you toggle to ECM counter mode for cbill/match score. It should not be LRM damage exclusive.

Also Stealth should not cast any ECM interference nor bubble.
Stealth should just block targeting, and heat vision unless its disabled by Tag, PPC's, NARC or when the player toggles it off.

I would also be very excited to see Ranged target info sharing, C3 computers had a purpose, it was called balance.

I mostly agree with you except C3. This game mostly run nowadays or balance at least runs around quickplay and this would make solo lurming even harder than it is right now and would just buff premades. So I don't think it would balance anything, more likely unbalance.

In BT you can design your team lance whatever you got, in quickplay you get what you get to your side.

Edited by Curccu, 02 August 2023 - 01:30 AM.

[sycocys]

Curccu, on 02 August 2023 - 01:19 AM, said:

Right now unless I'm running lock-on weapons with that 1 ton I can have a heatsink, TC1, 1 ton of ammo, 2-0,5 jump jets and all of those are more valuable to me in 99,9% of my builds than extra sensor range unless I'm running Lurms/ATMs.

I don't like the game's jumping mechanics.

To me 25% sensor range is way more valuable than a heatsink or slight crit buff. My mechs need to be inside of 300m, being able to get blips further away makes that far more doable and picks up most of the mechs trying to counter to the positioning I'm working. And when you are in range of the other teams ball, it's a free always on counter for the over-proliferation of ecm - that just helps your team and farms bonus points and c-bills.

For ammo, I run my mechs with the amount of ammo that gets used in an average match. To me it's pointless to have extra for the 1 in 50 matches that you run out.

Targeting computers, especially low ones, are only useful in my opinion if you have an extra half/ton after bap. Might be more useful if it wasn't tiny generic bonuses and instead they had an array of computers that could work for single weapon systems.
Would take a heat sink over one if the slots were there, probably still not jets.

[Captain Caveman DE]

VeeOt Dragon, on 01 August 2023 - 03:50 PM, said:

so Long story short what can we do it improve the EW aspect of the game? also what can be done to perhaps lessen the effects of the over abundance of ECM on the field without nerfing ECM itself?

(Side note--lets try to keep the hatred for LRM and other lock-on weapons out of the conversation)

sorry, but with that sidenote, you've done it all by yourself; better edit it and delete the "hatred"part, as atm, noone would assume that you're "neutral" on this, and this assumption will 'tint' every argument you make.

you can't look isolated at ECM and/or lockon-weapons. those 2 (3 with the probes) are a "package-deal".

-make ecm stronger, and the lrm-crowd will cry (even more)
-make ecm weaker, and we get the NEXT lurmageddon +atm-gone-wild (or sth).
-make lrms stronger, and we get the NEXT lurmageddon
-make beagles stronger, and we might push streaks too far (though they could use ~some~ buff against fatties).
-and so on..

either way and to quote dune in a crude way:
balancing is a very delicate time.

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 02 August 2023 - 06:39 AM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

sycocys, on 02 August 2023 - 04:10 AM, said:

I don't like the game's jumping mechanics.

To me 25% sensor range is way more valuable than a heatsink or slight crit buff. My mechs need to be inside of 300m, being able to get blips further away makes that far more doable and picks up most of the mechs trying to counter to the positioning I'm working. And when you are in range of the other teams ball, it's a free always on counter for the over-proliferation of ecm - that just helps your team and farms bonus points and c-bills.

For ammo, I run my mechs with the amount of ammo that gets used in an average match. To me it's pointless to have extra for the 1 in 50 matches that you run out.

Targeting computers, especially low ones, are only useful in my opinion if you have an extra half/ton after bap. Might be more useful if it wasn't tiny generic bonuses and instead they had an array of computers that could work for single weapon systems.
Would take a heat sink over one if the slots were there, probably still not jets.

It really depends on the mech but god I hate running with fewer than max JJ on a lot of my mechs. I originally ran short one to fit an extra half ton of MRM ammo on the SHD but realized I didn't often need the ammo so went back to full JJ.

JJs in general feel much worse than they should.

[Cyborne Elemental]

JumpJets used to be abused alot by Gauss+ER/PPC mechs alot back in the day, that is why for the most part why its such a mess.

Also many so called "good" players only equip 1 JJ, not for maneuvering terrain, but for exploiting a broken mechanic with quick speed changes and de-synced animations where a mech will suddenly lurch forward or teleport, thus dodging a shot that otherwise would have connected.

The JJ animation is more of an exploit, so tapping the JJ;s rapidly on some mechs throws off hitreg and causes some mechs to appear to teleport or warp.

Worst offenders of this exploit are the Jenner, Urbie and ShadowHawk.

It is very much like the Dolphin diving glitch that was present in Battlefield-2, where you could instantly transition from standing to going prone, throwing hitreg out the window.

Edited by Cyborne Elemental, 02 August 2023 - 08:54 AM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Cyborne Elemental, on 02 August 2023 - 08:52 AM, said:

JumpJets used to be abused alot by Gauss+ER/PPC mechs alot back in the day, that is why for the most part why its such a mess.

Also many so called "good" players only equip 1 JJ, not for maneuvering terrain, but for exploiting a broken mechanic with quick speed changes and de-synced animations where a mech will suddenly lurch forward or teleport, thus dodging a shot that otherwise would have connected.

The JJ animation is more of an exploit, so tapping the JJ;s rapidly on some mechs throws off hitreg and causes some mechs to appear to teleport or warp.

Worst offenders of this exploit are the Jenner, Urbie and ShadowHawk.

I picked up on other players doing that and consequently do it on the Shawk, I thought removal of Vectoring fixed that though

[Cyborne Elemental]

Vectoring was not the 100% of the problem, its mostly an animation issue..

Although.

JJ's have a mechanic of applying directional thrust, if you press forward, then back, it speeds up accel/decel rates instantly, instead of softly.

Vectoring just amplified an already existing exploit, or bug if you want to call it that has been coded into the JJ mechanic.

Edited by Cyborne Elemental, 02 August 2023 - 09:00 AM.