48 replies to this topic

[Remover of Obstacles]

Great suggestions. Thank you for posting them.

I would love to see BAP live tested with it creating a dead zone for enemy ECM.

Has anyone tested lately to see if two BAPs actually counter two ECM in game?

Cyborne Elemental, on 01 August 2023 - 11:25 PM, said:

Do it like Tabletop BattleTech is supposed to be.

Guardian-ECM is personal ECM only, so there is no bubble, its only large enough to cover the equipped mech.

Angel-ECM is the bubble version, and it is heavier slightly.

I think ECM overlap should be removed entirely, so BAP and CBAP/CLAP should knockout all nearby ECM equipped mechs, it shouldn't be a 1-1 ratio to counter.

That, or Narc should at the minimum provide at least the Counter-ECM, same as if you toggle to ECM counter mode for cbill/match score. It should not be LRM damage exclusive.

Also Stealth should not cast any ECM interference nor bubble.
Stealth should just block targeting, and heat vision unless its disabled by Tag, PPC's, NARC or when the player toggles it off.

I would also be very excited to see Ranged target info sharing, C3 computers had a purpose, it was called balance.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Cyborne Elemental, on 02 August 2023 - 08:58 AM, said:

Vectoring was not the 100% of the problem, its mostly an animation issue..

Although.

JJ's have a mechanic of applying directional thrust, if you press forward, then back, it speeds up accel/decel rates instantly, instead of softly.

Vectoring just amplified an already existing exploit, or bug if you want to call it that has been coded into the JJ mechanic.

I use JJs frequently for sudden direction change and as a handbrake, didn't even realize that was a bug

[VeeOt Dragon]

Captain Caveman DE, on 02 August 2023 - 06:26 AM, said:

sorry, but with that sidenote, you've done it all by yourself; better edit it and delete the "hatred"part, as atm, noone would assume that you're "neutral" on this, and this assumption will 'tint' every argument you make.

you can't look isolated at ECM and/or lockon-weapons. those 2 (3 with the probes) are a "package-deal".

-make ecm stronger, and the lrm-crowd will cry (even more)
-make ecm weaker, and we get the NEXT lurmageddon +atm-gone-wild (or sth).
-make lrms stronger, and we get the NEXT lurmageddon
-make beagles stronger, and we might push streaks too far (though they could use ~some~ buff against fatties).
-and so on..

either way and to quote dune in a crude way:
balancing is a very delicate time.

that was mostly meant for that crowd that want to completely remove LRM from the game entirely. yes i like LRM but i remember when they were more balanced and actually usable in higher tiers of play with out coordinated groups. (i wasn't there for the Lurmagedon though). i simply balance and yes i know that any tweak to any one thing effects other things. at the moment ECM is to strong and many EW components are never even used or looked at.

[VeeOt Dragon]

now the idea for differing TCs has been brought up a number of times as well (based on the three weapon types) and i agree that it would be interesting as well.

some good ideas have been floated so far and i am happy for the feed back. though as was stated we need to keep balance in mind with all things.

thinking about it an idea came to mind. make BAP a toggle type thing when you have it equipped. it is an ACTIVE Probe so that would mean it is sending out some kind of signal (like the difference between active and passive sonar). so have it negate enemy ECM in a certain range but at the same time increase the range at which the mech carrying it can be detected while active. though this is more a random thought than something serious.

[RabidBeagles]

The negating effect of a PPC hit on an ECM mech is too short, in my opinion. Never timed it, but it feels like it lasts for only a second,

[TheCaptainJZ]

RabidBeagles, on 02 August 2023 - 10:07 AM, said:

The negating effect of a PPC hit on an ECM mech is too short, in my opinion. Never timed it, but it feels like it lasts for only a second,

It is 4 seconds.

Edited by TheCaptainJZ, 02 August 2023 - 01:22 PM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Cyborne Elemental, on 01 August 2023 - 11:25 PM, said:

Do it like Tabletop BattleTech is supposed to be.

Guardian-ECM is personal ECM only, so there is no bubble, its only large enough to cover the equipped mech.

Angel-ECM is the bubble version, and it is heavier slightly.

I think ECM overlap should be removed entirely, so BAP and CBAP/CLAP should knockout all nearby ECM equipped mechs, it shouldn't be a 1-1 ratio to counter.

That, or Narc should at the minimum provide at least the Counter-ECM, same as if you toggle to ECM counter mode for cbill/match score. It should not be LRM damage exclusive.

Also Stealth should not cast any ECM interference nor bubble.
Stealth should just block targeting, and heat vision unless its disabled by Tag, PPC's, NARC or when the player toggles it off.

I would also be very excited to see Ranged target info sharing, C3 computers had a purpose, it was called balance.

I like the parts about ECM. We're farther in the timeline now--make both ECMs available and give them different properties. Stop ECM bubbles from stacking, or weaken stacking. Take away ECM properties from Stealth mechs when Stealth is activated.

For the two ECMs, have one that is more effective up close and one that is more effective at distance. Probably make Guardian ECM stronger the closer you get (and make the effects scale with distance all the way to 0 meters) and make Angel ECM stronger the farther you are (with the team bubble effect). There'd have to be changes to BAP too. I don't want 1 BAP at 1 ton to immediately cancel all ECMs within a certain range--that's not fair. Speeding up lock-on speeds is something the targeting computer should do, but it doesn't (it just speeds up targeting paper-dolls and loadouts and improves weapons). I think the heavier computers should just take up fewer slots too.

For Narc, let's just make it fire faster, but last less time and add a lot more ammo to compensate. It should allow the enemy to be targeted even if under ECM cover, though that should slow locks somewhat.

[sycocys]

VeeOt Dragon, on 02 August 2023 - 09:49 AM, said:

now the idea for differing TCs has been brought up a number of times as well (based on the three weapon types) and i agree that it would be interesting as well.

My personal opinion would take it a step further and require computers also to unlock most of the "skill" nodes and the armor/ammo or gear specific ones like JJ and consumable should add to tonnage/slots/heat.

Even if they had no tonnage but required a slot per x amount of nodes for those ones. 1 free and up to 9 slots if you run full nodes. Or something along those lines. Would at least add some amount of balancing factor to that system since they won't zero sum it.

[Cyborne Elemental]

the check engine light, on 02 August 2023 - 09:08 AM, said:

I use JJs frequently for sudden direction change and as a handbrake, didn't even realize that was a bug

Its just something that was never addressed because.. reasons.
Lets call it a feature, with unintended side effects.

[LordNothing]

Curccu, on 02 August 2023 - 01:28 AM, said:

I mostly agree with you except C3. This game mostly run nowadays or balance at least runs around quickplay and this would make solo lurming even harder than it is right now and would just buff premades. So I don't think it would balance anything, more likely unbalance.

In BT you can design your team lance whatever you got, in quickplay you get what you get to your side.

c3 on its own would be a detriment, so lerms would need to get buffs to compensate. faster lock times in direct fire for example with lock time boosts with tag/narc/bap/tc/cc. ideally you should be able to get a lock near instantaneously in direct fire with enough ew equipment. of course that means you have to trade off tube count and ammo. the launchers themselves might even be more dangerous.

idf boats on the other hand would be harder and require more teamwork. tag teaming is still viable. cut your tube count down maybe 25% replace with ew equipment and c3. then 2 boats working together can still deliver 150% more missiles than you could carry alone while enjoying the survivability advantages of idf. if you have to fight alone, all the ew equipment will be buffed and you can.

and if you bring back the dedicated intel boat, the game pays them and doesn't shove them into t5, you will get mechs actively looking to score by spotting targets. it would require a full systems approach to work, in isolation i don't think it will do much good.

[PocketYoda]

LordNothing, on 01 August 2023 - 05:22 PM, said:

nerf target sharing. must install c3 to share locks at range. perhaps some short range target sharing and sharing from other equipment. but you need c3 to transmit across the map. (in before some lore pedant objects. the point is to make missile boaters more pro-active and less reliant on free targeting data, and in exchange get a bunch of other lerm buffs).

make ew equipment actually useful. especially bap, narc and tag.
make tag useful for self-locking, especially for streaks. restore lock time buffs.
make narc lighter and more ammo/t, reduce cd and buff hitpoints so it can survive 2 ams units.
buff bap and add bhp for even greater buffs.
make targeting computers help missiles. as far as i know, they dont.
command console, make it lighter or make it worth 3t.
upgradable sensors, eg tacticon (make it purchasable).

add aecm, ecm nerfs on gecm. no bubble casting in disrupt mode, it only protects your mech. counter bubble might get enlarged. you have to install the bigger aecm to get good ecm that can cast a bubble (im for a full 180m).

implement mml in the weapons pass, then make lerms rangy again, put the high arc back. mmls/atms can handle intermediate range combat with middle atm style arc. perhaps artemis can keep the dynamic arc as a feature specific to artemis. if you also give clans streak lrms, have those be a flat arc option. this gives guided missile users some options wrt their play style.

consumable: drone. like a uav but flies forward slowly once deployed until it gets shot down or exits the combat zone.
consumable: sat scan, sweep the entire map quickly reveling mechs for a couple seconds.

buff lights and give specific lights scoring quirks for scouting behaviors. make it at least competitive with damage to run a dedicated intel boat. bring back dedicated scouting role in a big way and dont punish their scores/psr for doing so. this is the main reason why ew fails. players dont get paid and are forced to direct fire boat and that turns the game into a depthless, soulless pixel alignment game.

My thoughts exactly.

[foamyesque]

LordNothing, on 01 August 2023 - 05:22 PM, said:

nerf target sharing. must install c3 to share locks at range.

See, nobody who proposes this thinks *they're* going to be hit by it, but what it effectively does is give every mech an ECM system that doesn't give itself away with a Low Signal notification.

So enjoy getting backstabbed by lights or smoked by snipers that didn't get autoshared to your minimap when a teammate managed to get a glimpse of them.

[LordNothing]

foamyesque, on 04 August 2023 - 09:34 AM, said:

See, nobody who proposes this thinks *they're* going to be hit by it, but what it effectively does is give every mech an ECM system that doesn't give itself away with a Low Signal notification.

So enjoy getting backstabbed by lights or smoked by snipers that didn't get autoshared to your minimap when a teammate managed to get a glimpse of them.

scroll down to where i said passive radar mode.

yea im one of those. it worked im mwll.

ok there is going to be a more defined hierarchy of signal modes. stealth being the least observable. ecm next (2 levels: gecm and aecm, with the latter being better/more expensive) then you have passive radar followed by active radar, with narced and actively tagged players being the most observable. bap and bhp can steal a level or two back. c3 just enables you to broadcast everything on your scope to everyone reguardless of range, stock info sharing would be range capped. tag and narc can also broadcast, narc from the beacon and tag is an optical system that can function independent of jamming.

i mean you did want better ew right? because im not sure a lot of people do. it is electronic warfare, which means there is fighting for electronic dominance. its not free targeting data (we have that already).

also if were being honest, the good backstabbers and snipers are going to hit you without you knowing they are there anyway. its what they do. i can do it sometimes.

Edited by LordNothing, 04 August 2023 - 03:23 PM.

[An6ryMan69]

Problems with EW as it is now -

ECM bubble from a massed ECM mechs is way overpowered, and makes lock-on weapons essentially useless.

A single mech disrupting multiple lock-lock on mechs with it's single ECM system is too powerful.

All the EW equipment in the world still can't defeat stealth at any range and that's horrible.

My suggestions -

ECM works at full strength for initial mech and at +25% for up to two more ECM mechs in bubble, but never more than 50% extra extra under any circumstances, including skill nodes.

Disrupting with an ECM disrupts only one (the closest) target per disrupting ECM. If both mechs involved have ECM and both are disrupting they cancel each other out (So missile locks work as normal, and both mechs function as normal, non-ECM mechs, etc.)

A mech with both ECM set to disrupt as well as an active probe can detect the closest stealth mech out to 300 meters.

Edited by An6ryMan69, 09 August 2023 - 12:48 PM.

[crazytimes]

sycocys, on 01 August 2023 - 06:38 PM, said:

As far as BAP goes, I run it and recommend it for probably 90% of builds. It's 1 ton for free match points and extended sensor range. Even at 1.5 tons it was worth it because you have that much extra range to route your positioning.

In the lower tiers there's lots of obvious potato builds. Bracket weapons, undergunned, under heatsink, etc. In the mid tiers though there's less obvious problems. Weapon loadouts look okay, they seem to aim okay, they just aren't putting out anywhere near the damage they could be.

Could be because 10-30% of their tonnage and crit space has gone to command consoles, BAP, LAMS, double TAG, excess ammo and the like. BAP doesn't change much of you're not in a lockon mech. As others have said- weapons and heatsinks are a better use of space on any non-lockon build.

The only exception would be playing a dedicated scouting build as part of a coordinated group....and they usually prioritise stealth NARC mechs, and I believe BAP doesn't work in stealth.

[SafeScanner]

Bap is good for keeping stealth mech out of stealth when they/if are forced to drop it other than that next best thing is to shoot them

[Nine-Ball]

Give everyone ECM, then have LRMs target through ECM.

Fixed.

[SafeScanner]

Nine-Ball, on 09 August 2023 - 03:24 PM, said:

Give everyone ECM, then have LRMs target through ECM.

Fixed.

or just nerf ecm/mechs to make them less viable compaired to their peers

[foamyesque]

crazytimes, on 09 August 2023 - 02:13 PM, said:

BAP doesn't change much of you're not in a lockon mech. As others have said- weapons and heatsinks are a better use of space on any non-lockon build.

Not much, but to be perfectly honest the extra sensor range is pretty nifty. Knowing where people are sooner (plus the faster paperdoll if you're someone who knows where your R button is) is often more valuable to me than the marginal utility of One More Heatsink. Particularly on the Clan side, since you're able to stack so many sinks and you can slap down a LAP for a half-ton, but at 1t the Sphere BAP is actually worth carrying on quite a few mechs these days.

Another thing that's often worth more than that One Last Heatsink, but which people skimp on, is AMS, IMO. It's significantly more effective than armour in protecting you against missiles, and it'll cover teammates as well. Underrated bit of kit.

[VeeOt Dragon]

yeah i feel the same about AMS, if i have the spare space and tonnage i will often try to fit in a single AMS with 1/2t of ammo (usually enough for most matches in higher tiers where mass LRM and such isn't that common). many mistakenly think it is only good for fighting LRM/ATM but it works on all missile systems so even NARC can be negated. though it is less effective the closer the mech firing the missiles is.

i don't really use BAP much other than on mechs that having that boosted sensor range helps (long range builds and LRM mechs. maybe scouts but i don't play light mechs other than the Urbie)