9 replies to this topic

[JumpingHunter]

I know for sure that it was a contriversial topic back in old days, and it is probably now too, but it doesn't help stop thinking about that 10-damage CERPPC as of a specific nerf to only specific clan mechs, that don't really shine too much anyway, but for some reason are stomped into the ground completely by modern day's balance. Mechs like Adder Prime, Nova Cat Prime, Timberwolf C and D (the ones with ERPPCs, dont remember their designations well), Hellbringer Prime and Warhawk Prime are very rarely seen, and if they seen they tend to act a bit lost, as if they couldn't find their role on a field, or as if they didn't know how to properly use their main weapon.

In general almost all times when i see a Clan ERPPC in action its either on the Shadow Cat or Vapor Eagle for poptarting, or on some sort of PPC+Gauss sniper machine built on Dire Wolf platform. And in both cases they die horribly without achieving almost anything for their team. Of course sometimes there's a good pilot in Shadow Cat that know how to stay alive and shoot sharp, but most of the time Clan ERPPC seem to be a bit of a liability, especially on the background of both Heavy and ER Large Lasers. They both deal more total damage than PPC, they both are easier to hot the target, ERLL is rather cool for an 11-damage weapon, while CERPPCs 10+5 splash damage really doesn't come up in the play almost at all.

That is why i suggest this change: For certain mechs, like those that i mentioned before, and in general on those that were specifically designed around ERPPC being their main gun, give them fixed (unmovable/unremovable) item, something like build-in PPC capacitor, that doesn't weight anything and take up 1 slot (like case), that would make ERPPCs deal 15 pinpoint damage instead of 10+5 splash, at the cost of +25% bigger heat generation. Maybe make it activatable via check box, like lower arm or hand actuators, and place it in CT. This would give those specific mech variants that were specifically designed with CERPPC as their main weapon in mind their initial role back. And by making that item increasing CERPPC's heat you'll prevent horrible boating problem that (supposedly) was the reason for CERPPC's initial nerf.

It's almost pointless to try using Hellbringer Prime's stock loadout, or even a slightly modified but close to stock one, because it just doesn't deal enough damage with it's weapons, while also not having enough hardpoints for more lighter guns, and the same goes for a lot of other mechs which come with ERPPC in stock build. And that is what i specifically want to change - i want some clan mech's to be able to use their stronger ERPPC as they should, instead of fearfully peek from far away, racking at most 500 damage with their intially pre-designed and iconic loadouts, i want ERPPC to be the decent sidegrade to current dominant clan lasers, instead of being largely forgotten and left behind.

[KursedVixen]

how about just a CERpp damage +5 quirk? on these mechs and ONLy the configs that have them like the warhawk Prime Adder prime and such.

[epikt]

JumpingHunter, on 22 September 2023 - 03:31 PM, said:

In general almost all times when i see a Clan ERPPC in action its either on the Shadow Cat or Vapor Eagle for poptarting, or on some sort of PPC+Gauss sniper machine built on Dire Wolf platform. And in both cases they die horribly without achieving almost anything for their team. Of course sometimes there's a good pilot in Shadow Cat that know how to stay alive and shoot sharp, but most of the time Clan ERPPC seem to be a bit of a liability

it's not because some players are bad at it that we should buff some weapons. Especially all-or-nothing weapons like PPCs.
All your suggestion would achieve is make the good pilots better and the bad ones still bad (since they don't hit their shots anyway).

I think they found the good way to "buff" PPCs, via velocity quirks, which makes them easier to hit.

PS: I might be wrong (and it's very possible since I'm known for my bad memory) but I don't remember clan ERPPCs ever dealing 15 pin-point damage in MWO, always remember them with the spread.

[KursedVixen]

epikt, on 22 September 2023 - 05:47 PM, said:

it's not because some players are bad at it that we should buff some weapons. Especially all-or-nothing weapons like PPCs.
All your suggestion would achieve is make the good pilots better and the bad ones still bad (since they don't hit their shots anyway).

I think they found the good way to "buff" PPCs, via velocity quirks, which makes them easier to hit.

PS: I might be wrong (and it's very possible since I'm known for my bad memory) but I don't remember clan ERPPCs ever dealing 15 pin-point damage in MWO, always remember them with the spread.

i think one time they did but it was very short and perhaps during their initial release they did, but rarely did they ever do 15 pinpoint Though honest upping the velocity on the clan Erppc to the same as the Is one would fix alot of problems. There's a reason the HAgs are popular, because of their velocity.

Edited by KursedVixen, 22 September 2023 - 06:05 PM.

[JumpingHunter]

KursedVixen, on 22 September 2023 - 04:43 PM, said:

how about just a CERpp damage +5 quirk? on these mechs and ONLy the configs that have them like the warhawk Prime Adder prime and such.

That would be a good solution too, even less complicated. I would prefer that myself, but i tired to offer something to pay for that +5 damage with, which is one crit slot in CT. Probably not enough though. maybe making that a quirk would be better idea.

[JumpingHunter]

epikt, on 22 September 2023 - 05:47 PM, said:

it's not because some players are bad at it that we should buff some weapons. Especially all-or-nothing weapons like PPCs.
All your suggestion would achieve is make the good pilots better and the bad ones still bad (since they don't hit their shots anyway).

I think they found the good way to "buff" PPCs, via velocity quirks, which makes them easier to hit.

PS: I might be wrong (and it's very possible since I'm known for my bad memory) but I don't remember clan ERPPCs ever dealing 15 pin-point damage in MWO, always remember them with the spread.

Sadly, the problem is not in PPC's inablilty to connect with target really, the problem is that when the shot does connect with target a Large Laser would be straight up more effective. I can hit my PPC shots fairly well, i've been running PPC mechs for most of my MWO time, yet i clearly see that i constantly deal more damage and achieve better results with same number of Large Lasers, because of several factors - more direct damage (for some reason, why does CERLL deal 11 damage, and CLPL 13???) and hitscan nature of the lasers AND less weight. They just outclass CERPPC on most of clan mechs, because why would you use inferior PPCs, even with +40% velocity quirk, if you can slap same number of lasers and have more room for heatsinks, deal more damage and have better cooldown? Concentrating lasers on specific component isn't that hard, and there is not other redeeming benefits of PPC over large lasers. There is a reason you don't see HBR-Primes in their stock or close to stock outfit or Nova Cat Primes with ERPPCs not swapped for another pair of Large Lasers and 4 more heatsinks. Lasers are just more effective even if you consider pilot's aim good enough to not matter for both PPCs and Lasers.

Inner Shpere have this problem too, but all PPC-based mechs of IS have actually good PPC-specific quirks - cooldown, range, velocity and heat. Clan omnis that were designed around PPCs don't get almost any PPC quirks, and those which get these quirks don't have enough hardpoints to make using these quirks worth the effort. And again, even with these quirks, it's too easy to slap one more LL on mech with big energy cooldown and heat qiirks and get more damage for same tonnage, or even better cooling. CERPPC just feels like it should be a hot 15-damage weapon, but it isn't, and mechs that try to take advantage of clan PPCs end up being underpowered, because of less hardpoints and low damage with higher heat. And yes, it did deal 15 damage when it was first released with other clan tech, although i wasn't in MWO back there, so i didn't see that in person.

That is why i would much rather prefer CERPPCs to have IS Std PPC velocity (1100 instead of 1650) with 15 pinpoint damage, because that would make it take more effort to hit buyt also give bigger reward for shots. With its current heat level, and clan mechs' generally lower heat capacity, i think CERPPC wouldn't get too powerful if some PPC-based mechs like Warhawk or HBR-prime (in SO8, most likely) would get a quirk for +5 PPC direct damage. It would only make it worth having over LLs for that damage per hardpoint increase, not outshadow them on most clan mechs.

Edited by JumpingHunter, 23 September 2023 - 07:00 AM.

[Void Angel]

... Ok, I'm going to assume you're confusing Clan heat costs with heat capacity, since cooling and heat capacity is the same between tech bases. Check GrimMechs if you're confused. And that higher cost is well offset by Clan cooling efficiency when considering high-heat builds. Consider two near-identical laservomit builds: the Timber Wolf, and the Black Knight. The Black Knight's dissipation and heat capacity are lower, and while its maximum dps is theoretically higher, it cannot reach that threshold because of its low Alpha to Overheat - and the Timber Wolf's dramatically superior cooling allows that chassis a proportionally significant boost to sustained dps.

So your reasoning on this subject is... wrong. I don't mean "wrong" as in "I disagree with you," I mean "wrong" as in "empirically incorrect." It's a math problem with graphics, and you have the wrong answer.

But really, it all boils down to this: what you are asking for is a 2-slot, 6-ton Heavy PPC with 810m range, wedded to superior Clan cooling technology.

[simon1812]

What is PGI makes it like it was in MW4M? Adding heatsinks increased the damage of energy weapons by certain % in addition to their original purpose.

PS
Epikt does make a good point though

Edited by simon1812, 24 September 2023 - 07:17 PM.

[Void Angel]

PPS: For those in here who may still be mathematically challenged, the DPS per hardpoint on cERPPCs is dramatically higher than for the cERLL (3 DPS v. 1.8 DPS.). The cERLL does one (1) more damage per shot, but has a 6.10 base recycle time, compared to the ERPPC's 5 seconds - and the ERPPC is pinpoint damage. That's a huge point in its favor; it's easy to pop enemy 'mechs if they're stationary and not torso twisting, but once you fight someone who knows how to spread damage, pinpoint matters.

So if all you're doing is trundling out of cover, puking out a Clan Laser Rave volley, and hiding until you cool again.... sure. cERLLs are probably slightly better for that - but only if your goal is to farm damage, and maybe accidentally kill a 'mech from time to time. If you are actively trying to push your 'mech's heat systems and, you know, be in the fight, the cERPPC is a perfectly viable weapon.

[simon1812]

Jumpinghunter you do know PGI got numbers right? They can tell which weapons are the most used and how often during a match, how it correlates with victories and losses, and the players record? Etc etc. Lets say "data" for short.

Just saying the whole "...I often see..." Doesn't really fly far.

Edited by simon1812, 26 September 2023 - 09:19 AM.