149 replies to this topic

[Duke Falcon]

martian, on 04 October 2023 - 06:02 AM, said:

Do you own the The Clans sourcebook?

I read it long ago. I read much of the sourcebooks I could borrow but since none were published in my native language I not state I understood clearly everything. Those what I read in english is OK, 90% understood but those I could read only in german (considering my terrible german and how much I forgot) I understood only about 60%. I planned to get some sourcebooks but delivering them into my country is a pure brainf**k (and nearly triples the price at best).
However...

Jaroth Corbett, on 04 October 2023 - 06:03 AM, said:

I read Betrayal of Ideals a long time ago. Also what is proper and improper is stated in the source material which I have posted previously.

... I consider sourcebooks merely guidelines because some have inconveniencies (and read above the effects of non-native language reading). But for the Clans I remember - and it were supported nearly all novels - that clan society is not an absolutism! Every single decision made by even the Ilkhan or the Grand Council could be attacked and reversed. Literally even an Abjuration (proper) could be defected by a Trial of Refusal. The reason such trials are rare that the chances to win is dim at best. But (!) if for example Clan Wolf initiated such a Trial of Refusal against their Abjuration (or the Nova cats earlier) and win against the forces of all (!) clans what voted their Abjuration (near impossible, waste of resources) then the Abjuration is literally dismissed by combat provess. That is the Clan way of life.

But Clan Wolf is special and would be always special among the Clans, so much that even the Home Clans may pardon them: Kerensky bloodname. It is sacred and the fact that Clan Wolf took it and made it unreachable to the other Clans created a religional trouble. The Clans still deify the name Kerensky. So, if a Kerensky would have claim Terra as IlKhan they sure bow despite their new-found ideals of "Clan purity". The Clans as a society is simple and built upon the ideal that "Kerenskies are godlike figures" and whatever is connected to them is "sacred or near sacred". If Clan Wolf not had the Kerensky bloodname exclusively most of their acts would triggered their downfall by other Clans earlier (enough Clans hated them and their revisionist ways).

But I not want to go deeper in such a debate. A three-sided debate could last longer and may proven less fiery than a two-sided one. I think I remain an observer with occasional personal notes, if you let me...

[martian]

Duke Falcon, on 04 October 2023 - 07:37 AM, said:

I read it long ago. I read much of the sourcebooks I could borrow but since none were published in my native language I not state I understood clearly everything. Those what I read in english is OK, 90% understood but those I could read only in german (considering my terrible german and how much I forgot) I understood only about 60%. I planned to get some sourcebooks but delivering them into my country is a pure brainf**k (and nearly triples the price at best).

Okay. Do you own Wars of Reaving?

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 04 October 2023 - 08:19 PM, said:

Isaid something

baby seal treatment I said:

Quote

Aberdeen Mehta spoke again, “Nicholas Kerensky proclaimed that whichever Clan conquered Terra would become the ilClan, the Clan above all Clans, and that its senior Khan would become ilKhan for life, with the right to appoint their successor from the ilClan. In his wisdom, the Founder intended the invasion of the Inner Sphere to be a test to determine from which Clan the First Lords of a resurrected Star League would descend. “Two Clans have fulfilled that ultimate test, and they stand here today. What follows will determine the fate of our people, and all in the Inner Sphere.”

Hour of the Wolf page 361 <- Source material

Why are you avoiding this canon material?

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 05 October 2023 - 03:45 AM.

[Duke Falcon]

martian, on 04 October 2023 - 08:19 PM, said:

Okay. Do you own Wars of Reaving?

No, but read. Not liked. Were very-very unclan-like and found the Steel Vipers self-bashing idiotism rather disturbing.
But I not read the Dark Age-era novels past the Rending of Falcons because Malvina proven a brainf**ked b!*ch. I nevertheless heard the summary of the storyline from friends. Were relieved when turned out the Falcons failed despite my staunch admiration toward Clan Jade Falcon. It were shameful how much Malvina turned the Clan out of itself...

[martian]

Duke Falcon, on 05 October 2023 - 07:41 AM, said:

No, but read. Not liked. Were very-very unclan-like and found the Steel Vipers self-bashing idiotism rather disturbing.

Do you remember from the Wars of Reaving sourcebook the Abjuration of Clan Wolf by the Grand Council of the Clans?

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 05 October 2023 - 07:45 AM, said:

said something

baby seal treatment I said:

Quote

Alaric spoke first in a firm tone. “As my Wolves landed on Terra first, I claim the right of being the Hunted for this Trial.”


Malvina nodded curtly. “I so acknowledge, and claim the right of the Hunter for this Trial.”

Up to that point, Stephanie had wondered if Malvina would grandstand in some way, but she did not. Even the Chingis Khan understands the gravity of this ceremony.

“What would you defend with, Alaric Ward, Khan of the Wolves?”

“I bid all of my forces currently on Terra. No assault DropShips or WarShips. This will be fought on the ground—warrior to warrior.”

“All forces on-planet then,” Malvina agreed. “I bid my entire Clan, Clan Jade Falcon.”

Hour of the Wolf page 361 <- Source material

Why are you avoiding this canon material?

[Duke Falcon]

martian, on 05 October 2023 - 07:45 AM, said:

Do you remember from the Wars of Reaving sourcebook the Abjuration of Clan Wolf by the Grand Council of the Clans?

I see and understand where you try to guide me...

The Grand Council (may I mention them as GC further?) DO abjured the Wolves, fact. By that decree the "home" Clans no longer considered the Wolves as a true Clan, another fact.
Still, Clan Wolf proved that they not acknowledge the authority of the GC. They refused the result of the Great Refusal what stated by the GC stated Clan Wolf voted abstain thus not considered themselves bid by the GC's resolution (decision?). And the GC proven shady during Clan-history (see the Wolverine's case when they bowed before Nicholai's machinations) and this erodes their absolute authority I think.
Not to mention the Wolves were accused by betrayal and plot to destroy genetic legacies, albeit that case left unsolved thanks for Ulric's deeds and the Falcons' eagerness to force their own solution of the matter. When Vlad reformed the Wolves he stated that the new Wolves are not asame with the old one but noone trully believed that, not even Vlad himself. If the GC would worked strictly according to clan laws they not abjured the Wolves but annihillated them. They did not because every Clan had wet dreams to acquire Kerensky-legacies\bloodname but finally touched themselves without satisfaction.
And an Abjuration could be undone, fact. See Dawn Moffat. The fact that spheroid Wolves captured Terra and became IlClan according to Kerensky's own decree is "quite a compelling arguement" if they wish to reverse their Abjuration. And after that the GC would need to revise the other spheroid Clans' case aswell. And considering the "sacred" legacies the Wolves still has no matter how "pure and innocent" may want to remain the home clans they just want that f**king "prize" back to clan-fold. What is "Kerensky" the Clans want it no matter what. A problem if a person got deified...
As for the Reaving, what is a clearly built-up mockery, the fact the GC accepted it and followed taint them even further. Reaving wents against some things Kerensky propagated and wished. But if we consider the Reavings as an act self punishment for their failures it could be understandable the GC accepted it.
Every decisions of a questionable government are questionable themselves. Albeit among the home clans the spheroid clans are no clans, sure fact and their decision, is but one point of view. Does Clan Ghost Bears consider themselves as a Clan? Do they have the might to force the weaker home clans to acknowledge them as one? Do a Jade Falcon thinks the Falcons are not a Clan any longer? Two sides of a coin and both true from the point you look them.
And again, I consider sourcebooks as guides. They not cover every single possibilities just the bulk of them while left some place for the readers\players to fill the holes according to their own games\campaigns\ideas. Just because lore states Drizzt Do'Urden is a hero who always win not means your party can't kill him. BattleTech lore is more often than none is messy what is both good and bad. I would not blindly accept everything written because easily happen that in the next few years we got materials contradicts.
The GC is legal body if you consider them as one. If you look them from another party's aspect they are but an organisation you either accept as legitime or not. Or we really need to accept all of the GC's decisions as eligible and legitime? Or did they made errors in the past? I think everything is more of a matter of personal consideration...

[martian]

Duke Falcon, on 05 October 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

I see and understand where you try to guide me...

The Grand Council (may I mention them as GC further?) DO abjured the Wolves, fact. By that decree the "home" Clans no longer considered the Wolves as a true Clan, another fact.

There is one interesting fact: The session, that Abjured the Wolves, was attended by both Homeworlds Clans and Invading Clans.

Duke Falcon, on 05 October 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

Still, Clan Wolf proved that they not acknowledge the authority of the GC. They refused the result of the Great Refusal what stated by the GC stated Clan Wolf voted abstain thus not considered themselves bid by the GC's resolution (decision?). And the GC proven shady during Clan-history (see the Wolverine's case when they bowed before Nicholai's machinations) and this erodes their absolute authority I think.

Do you know why I laughed when I read the Ward's complaint that the Grand Council is full of politicking? Because - as you have noticed - the Grand Council has been full of politicking right from the beginning.

Duke Falcon, on 05 October 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

Not to mention the Wolves were accused by betrayal and plot to destroy genetic legacies, albeit that case left unsolved thanks for Ulric's deeds and the Falcons' eagerness to force their own solution of the matter. When Vlad reformed the Wolves he stated that the new Wolves are not asame with the old one but noone trully believed that, not even Vlad himself. If the GC would worked strictly according to clan laws they not abjured the Wolves but annihillated them. They did not because every Clan had wet dreams to acquire Kerensky-legacies\bloodname but finally touched themselves without satisfaction.

In the end, the things moved a different direction.

Duke Falcon, on 05 October 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

And an Abjuration could be undone, fact. See Dawn Moffat. The fact that spheroid Wolves captured Terra and became IlClan according to Kerensky's own decree is "quite a compelling arguement" if they wish to reverse their Abjuration. And after that the GC would need to revise the other spheroid Clans' case aswell. And considering the "sacred" legacies the Wolves still has no matter how "pure and innocent" may want to remain the home clans they just want that f**king "prize" back to clan-fold. What is "Kerensky" the Clans want it no matter what. A problem if a person got deified...
And again, I consider sourcebooks as guides. They not cover every single possibilities just the bulk of them while left some place for the readers\players to fill the holes according to their own games\campaigns\ideas. Just because lore states Drizzt Do'Urden is a hero who always win not means your party can't kill him. BattleTech lore is more often than none is messy what is both good and bad. I would not blindly accept everything written because easily happen that in the next few years we got materials contradicts.

I agree with you that the Abjuration of the former Clan Wolf could be reversed in some future book - or maybe not.
So far it has not happened and there is no sign that it will happen.

Duke Falcon, on 05 October 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

As for the Reaving, what is a clearly built-up mockery, the fact the GC accepted it and followed taint them even further. Reaving wents against some things Kerensky propagated and wished. But if we consider the Reavings as an act self punishment for their failures it could be understandable the GC accepted it.

Some Clans have been working hard on self-punishment to atone for their past.

Duke Falcon, on 05 October 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

Every decisions of a questionable government are questionable themselves. Albeit among the home clans the spheroid clans are no clans, sure fact and their decision, is but one point of view. Does Clan Ghost Bears consider themselves as a Clan? Do they have the might to force the weaker home clans to acknowledge them as one? Do a Jade Falcon thinks the Falcons are not a Clan any longer? Two sides of a coin and both true from the point you look them.

Even after the Grand Council Abjured Nova Cats, they still talked about themselves as "Clan" too.

Duke Falcon, on 05 October 2023 - 08:38 AM, said:

The GC is legal body if you consider them as one. If you look them from another party's aspect they are but an organisation you either accept as legitime or not. Or we really need to accept all of the GC's decisions as eligible and legitime? Or did they made errors in the past? I think everything is more of a matter of personal consideration...

Well, the Grand Council was established by the Founder of the Clans Kerensky himself to guide the Clans, if we are talking about its legitimity. The problem is that if one claims to be a part of some organization, it should not be working against it.

[Jaroth Corbett]

martian, on 05 October 2023 - 10:32 PM, said:

Said something

Baby seal treatment I said:

Quote

As the Hunted,” Alaric continued, “we have the right to choose the venue for this trial. We will fight in the northern part of North America, where there are few cities—mostly forested terrain and lakes. I propose the forests between the cities of Ottawa and Winnipeg. My Wolves will make Ottawa their base.”

Malvina nodded again. “And my Jade Falcons will headquarter in Winnipeg.”

Alaric nodded slowly in response. “We deploy after this ceremony then, and commence at 0700 local time, if that is agreeable?”

“It is. The victor shall be the ilClan, for now and all time.”

“Aff,” Alaric said. “For now and all time.”

Hour of the Wolf page 362 <- Source material

Why are you avoiding this canon material?

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 06 October 2023 - 03:49 AM.

[Duke Falcon]

Jaroth Corbett, on 06 October 2023 - 03:35 AM, said:

Why are you avoiding this canon material?

I not read the Hour of the Wolf (as mentioned) so if I may guess:
Aberdeen Mehta were the loremaster when Alaric and Malvina bid for the IlClan trial?
In which case the bid were legal and true to clan laws. Both the Falcons and Wolves consider themselves as clans even though the Wolves got abjured (I told my personal thoughts about the legitimacy of the Grand Council and how it is questionable at best sometimes). From their point of view - and I agree with - their bidding and trial is valid and decisive. Moreso since they do accomplished Kerensky's orders in some form (I think not the Wardens nor the Crusaders were fully right about how to fulfill Kerensky's vision), that is a fact.
Do the "home clans" acknowledge it and accept it? Good question, if the spheroid clans accept and unite they have not much choice if go back home for their "buddies". But since the Reavings they not considered the spheroid Clans as "true clans" the home clans' point of view the IlClan trial could be considered as invalid. And from their point of view it's true albeit basicly bugged (go against Kerensky's visions and suchs, blah-blah-blah, we - you two - ran these circles already I think).
The validity of the other side's actions is questionable by the other side. The coin, again. Both are equally right and both could cite their own reasons why. But on the same time none are quite true, have logical holes, legitimacy troubles, errors of understanding certain "puzzle-like" decrees of the Forefathers.
The canon sources and materials go against each others, I think because they wanted to let the reader\user\whatever to decide how to understand (I as a Falcon-supporter question the GC's eligibility after the Great Refusal, I told earlier why). It also seems they made that directly and intentionally to keep some place of a "plot twist" for future products. My bet is that the IlClan would reverse the Wolves' abjuration and re-unite the Clans some way. Another Clan Invasion by the home clans is quite dumb as an action (strange but somehow brave way of suicide)...

I know the question were not for me, but hope you not got offended that I also replied it!