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Why Does Seige Still Exist?


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#1 AccessTime

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Posted 02 October 2023 - 07:57 AM

After playing 12 FP games for the most recent event, I rarely found Siege enjoyable. Domination we had some great games that I'd gladly play again. But especially being the attacker on Siege when you area bunch of pugs going up against a dedicated group, you have so little of a chance to win it is no fun at all. I mean I'd rather play the old Incursion mode instead of Siege, the mode is just so unbalanced with defender having a strong advantage. Granted there are strategies that can favor the attacker, such as linebacker rushes, but those are really something only a dedicated group can pull off with some planning and forethought. If you want pugs or small groups to play FP at least give us some kind of choice as to what games or what sides to drop in, for instance the event was supposed to be Smoke Jaguar attacking Kurita planets so Smoke Jaguar should have always been the attacker, and Kurita the defender when it came to Siege mode.

#2 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 02 October 2023 - 08:15 AM

best mode in the game

#3 Curccu

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Posted 03 October 2023 - 12:57 AM

Because that is the best part of faction play?

#4 The Ed Is Not Amused

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Posted 03 October 2023 - 11:28 AM

One of the core problems is that there's little opportunity for players who aren't dedicated FP players to gain familiarity with Siege. Outside of FP events, the FP queue is dead. Thus, it creates a feedback loop where the only way for people to be familiar with the maps and gamemode is if they're already in a dedicated FP group and thus have familiarity with it. Add to it the skill differential during events and how pug groups are usually cannon fodder for said dedicated FP groups you get a recipe for...not fun gameplay.

If PGI really wanted to ease people into the mode so more people would maybe be willing to get into a FP group and level up their gameplay, they should put Siege into event queue instead of funneling pugs to be cannon fodder in FP events. This way, you can get around the skill difference problem somewhat (since EQ usually only allows 1-2 player groups) while still letting newer or not-dedicated FP players actually learn the mode and learn the maps. You don't really get a chance to learn the mode if you're getting insta-slagged by experienced players in FP metabuilds who all know the maps and know where to go and what to do.

This is why I think PGI really needs to use event queue a lot more for stuff like this. This game BADLY needs some kind of mid-core mode with decks that's a midpoint between QP and FP. Right now the skill jump between the two modes is so extreme that it makes the learning curve damn near vertical, which is a big reason why FP is dead outside of events.

#5 Duke Falcon

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Posted 03 October 2023 - 12:00 PM

Quote

FP is dead outside of events.

Very, very sad indeed.

BTW: Siege is one of the best modes MWO ever had (the other were Incursion but it got killed). I especially like being the attacker because feels much better any single score I gather (usually 75% of my usual score of FP). And you would surprise how many builds I found usefull in Siege what otherwise desperately failed in QP modes...

#6 The Ed Is Not Amused

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Posted 03 October 2023 - 12:24 PM

View PostDuke Falcon, on 03 October 2023 - 12:00 PM, said:


BTW: Siege is one of the best modes MWO ever had


Oh, I firmly agree. It's great. It's just that, because of the state of FP in general few people ever get a chance to actually play it. Hence with the notion of putting it in event queue from time to time.

The 1-2 punch of having a mode with maps that people are like to be unfamiliar with and the high skill level of players in FP makes it very difficult for pug players to get in to. OP's complaint I think really doesn't highlight a problem with Siege as a gamemode so much as with the whole FP meta and how crazy the skill jump is from even mid-tier QP.

Take the FP issues out of the equation and Siege is fine.

Edited by The Ed Is Not Amused, 03 October 2023 - 12:26 PM.


#7 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 03 October 2023 - 02:02 PM

Don't mess with fp. Capping groups in THE group play mode is not the right move. I don't care for event que at all. If I can't play fp I uninstall.

Instead groups should balance them self, chase good opfor and splitt red and blue if only pugga is around. Would be far easier to co-ordinate if mwo had an proper official TS / social hub what ever.

What would massively benefit fp is getting rid of the phase system. Attacker defender random. Then u could add it as an Gamemode option specifically have to opt in to the qp mm so U can que for fp and qp at the same time. Most of the time there enough people that want to play faction, but nobody jumps in dead que.

Sadly this rework is massively outside of Pgi programming capabilities and capacity

#8 -K H A N

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Posted 03 October 2023 - 02:45 PM

Because siege is the best mode. Otherwise all FP would be is a 4 QP drop all the time. And QP is rubbish.

#9 Phil Myaz

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Posted 03 October 2023 - 05:53 PM

View PostAccessTime, on 02 October 2023 - 07:57 AM, said:

After playing 12 FP games for the most recent event, I rarely found Siege enjoyable. Domination we had some great games that I'd gladly play again. But especially being the attacker on Siege when you area bunch of pugs going up against a dedicated group, you have so little of a chance to win it is no fun at all. I mean I'd rather play the old Incursion mode instead of Siege, the mode is just so unbalanced with defender having a strong advantage. Granted there are strategies that can favor the attacker, such as linebacker rushes, but those are really something only a dedicated group can pull off with some planning and forethought. If you want pugs or small groups to play FP at least give us some kind of choice as to what games or what sides to drop in, for instance the event was supposed to be Smoke Jaguar attacking Kurita planets so Smoke Jaguar should have always been the attacker, and Kurita the defender when it came to Siege mode.


There are pros and cons to both sides.

With defending, the attacker needs to take the initiative so defenders have the benefit of setting up at choke points with pre-determined objectives.

With attacking, the attack only needs to kill 4 medium-hp objectives to win and they have 4 waves to do it. Any decent speed brawl with the sole focus on killing the objective only will be a guaranteed win for the attacker against any pre-made excluding maybe one with 12 div A players on the defense. Use mechs like assassins, orions, marauders, dragons linebackers, gargoyles, hellfires and blacklanners and you're pretty much guaranteed to win. If some players on your side does not want to win, oh well.

#10 The Ed Is Not Amused

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Posted 03 October 2023 - 07:18 PM

View PostIgnatius Audene, on 03 October 2023 - 02:02 PM, said:

Don't mess with fp.


Not suggesting that they do. As I said, what this game needs is something mid between QP and FP. A proper new mode is, as you say, beyond current PGI staff's capabilities, but they've gotta be able to put Siege in event queue.

When an event is not on just put a rotating Siege map in event queue (Mixed drop deck, max 2-4 player groups, 280 tons which is what most EQ decks are set to iirc). That alone would be a massive improvement to gameplay variety and it should be possible based on what they've done in the past.

Edited by The Ed Is Not Amused, 03 October 2023 - 07:23 PM.


#11 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 03 October 2023 - 08:42 PM

And result in another bucket. Then u have fp and fp light... -> nope

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 03 October 2023 - 08:42 PM.


#12 The Ed Is Not Amused

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Posted 04 October 2023 - 10:35 AM

FP for pugs is already an empty bucket outside of events; the vertical learning curve, the busted matchmaking and the dearth of players who play it outside of premades have seen to that. Its effectively premade only, and that's fine as long as there's some other mode available for players who don't have the time or scheduling availability to join an FP group. Right now that doesn't exist. I fail to see how adding EQ Siege will make that problem worse since pug FP is already effectively dead outside of premades and events. You can't empty a bucket that's already effectively empty.

QP is trash, I think we both agree on that, but the skill and commitment required to be in FP is simply too vertical a jump at this point where most people will just say "**** it" and play something else. Games like this need casuals and mid-level players to survive. They also need a midcore mode that can transition players between the mid skill tiers into the high skill tiers. QP, in its current state, simply does not do this. People can't, and won't, "git gud" if there's no space for them to do so. If the journey is not enjoyable, people will find one of a plethora of other games to play.

#13 tee5

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Posted 05 October 2023 - 07:41 AM

@The Ed is Not Amused:

I don't understand what you want with your Midcore Mode, if Pasha, Data, Fission, Extreme Alex, Colonell O'Neil and some other Comp-Players decide to play that mode, it will be a HARDCORE MODE.

#14 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 05 October 2023 - 02:14 PM

And I can already see, that u play no fp (at least not EU prime). Matches are mostly pugga vs pugga. A group bigger than 4 is really rare (damn our unit is down to 4-5 total...).

BUT u will face better players in better load outs. Beside getting some basics and some mechs in qp, the best start in for FP is still with an unit. Sadly in MWO the player base is quite solo warrior, probably because of old franchise games. Doesn't help that Pgi never implemented basic social functions.

Edited by Ignatius Audene, 05 October 2023 - 08:45 PM.


#15 martian

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Posted 06 October 2023 - 05:17 AM

View Post-K H A N, on 03 October 2023 - 02:45 PM, said:

And QP is rubbish.

The Quick Play has players and when clicking the "Play" button, you can expect to get a game in a reasonable time.

Edited by martian, 06 October 2023 - 11:07 PM.


#16 Duke Falcon

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Posted 07 October 2023 - 12:05 PM

View Postmartian, on 06 October 2023 - 05:17 AM, said:

The Quick Play has players and when clicking the "Play" button, you can expect to get a game in a reasonable time.


Sometimes the quality of an FP match do worth the time of waiting. Sometimes the quality of a QP match, well, let's say no need to hurry...
And now that Incursion got killed from QP ==> Siege in FP is the last and best true mode of the game (other mode in FP is like in QP just with DD)...
Siege for da WIN!

#17 The6thMessenger

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Posted 08 October 2023 - 06:34 PM

View PostThe Ed Is Not Amused, on 03 October 2023 - 11:28 AM, said:

If PGI really wanted to ease people into the mode so more people would maybe be willing to get into a FP group and level up their gameplay, they should put Siege into event queue instead of funneling pugs to be cannon fodder in FP events.


They could make it a mode for QP. But then is it now FP?

#18 Lukas den Hau

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Posted 22 November 2023 - 01:00 PM

Before I quited MWO few years ago, Siege was the best mode in FP. There were enough casual players and if somebody with experience of the map took the lead you could win against other casuals and even against smaller teams (with the other half casuals). Still you would be easily beaten by good teams and you knew it right from the start by reading their names. But in one game against one of these teams, they ejected right after their first two drops by purpose. And afterwards a real good fight developed, because we casuals knew, that this might be our chance. They still won, but it was close and enjoyable. I think, more enjoyable for both teams than an onesided slaughter.
Now (okay, already three years ago) you waited in FP even in a small team half an hour to drop, either to have no enemy (wtf) or to get stomped. Both is hardly enjoyable. And QP is only half of the game and gets boring after a while.
Thus, if you want to draw more players to FP, you need something to align a little bit the chances to win. Maybe not 50/50, but at least in a way that the casual team has a small chance to win. Maybe something that resembles the bid process of the clans and where you get a special reward. A reward that you only receive if you win a couple of times after deciding as a team to drop only with three or two mechs. There should be no other way to receive this kind of reward, with the reward getting better the more mechs you bid away and the more wins you achieve with this handicap. Maybe something that is clearly visible on the mechs of the team as a token of fame.
Call me, if something like this is getting implemented and I'll be backPosted Image





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