27 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

PREFACE:

So who here ever use SHS? Who would ever trade a double heat-efficiency for 1 ton, for smaller but less heat-efficient? Barely anyone right?

But this was one of the question in Cauldron Discord this morning, as if they wanted SHS to be more useful than what it is right now. My first solution was just let heat-sinks mix, where if you have a spare-ton but not enough slots, put an SHS and call it a day -- that would be heretical though.

That got me thinking though. Realistically, the allure of double dissipation is just too damn good to pass up, it just does nothing but good on most builds, of course SHS will be ignored. XML value changes won't really solve that.

So here's my idea, with a bit of coding. A dynamic heating system.

IDEA: (Actual numbers aren't fixed, but the concept is there)

> Fixed Dissipation at 1.6 H/S, both SHS and DHS.
> SHS has 60 base Heat Capacity + 1 per SHS
> DHS has 50 base Heat Capacity + 0.6 per DHS
> DHS has +100%% Heat Dissipation while currently at +50% Heat Threshold.

The mechanic of this is that the DHS is instead giving off bonus heat dissipation only while at +50% of heat threshold, think of it as the direct anti-thesis of TSM. Meanwhile the SHS will have consistent heat dissipation instead.

The point of this change is that, the heat-dissipation is only active to a build that is quickly building up heat, such as say Laser-Vomit. Alphas can quickly eat up the heat-gauge, but it will cool off just enough to let off another shot. This also incentivizes maintaining the heat at above 50% in a careful fashion, to maximize heat-dissipation, while also making it risky as you can immediately overheat with an uncontrolled shot. Now if they want to let loose more shots at an encounter, then they must wait longer.

The SHS in contrast however, instead caters to the mid to low heat, this is the ACs and Gausses. They are unlikely to build up heat quickly, and thus won't make good use of DHS as they will quickly drop of that 50% threshold and not fully utilize the upper half of the heat capacity. It instead however has good heat-capacity and acceptable heat-dissipation, able to sustain for incredibly long amount of time.

Thoughts?

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 October 2023 - 05:14 PM.

[Curccu]

The6thMessenger, on 03 October 2023 - 05:05 PM, said:

PREFACE:

So who here ever use SHS? Who would ever trade a double heat-efficiency for 1 ton, for smaller but less heat-efficient? Barely anyone right?

There is no double heat-efficiency for DHS in MWO

SHS
dissipation 0,15/s
Heat cap increase 2,3

DHS
dissipation 0,22/s
Heat cap increase 2

But yes very few builds that are better with SHS than DHS (some light MG builds that want to use FF and endo and also has small engine limit) some Supernova / Highlander IIC builds that you just want to cram stupid amount of SHS in the mech.

One way to want people to use SHS is (this will be very unpopular idea) to nerf DHS heat cap increase with heavy hand, This would also lower these massive alphas we got that I have understood not many actually want.

[The6thMessenger]

Curccu, on 03 October 2023 - 10:13 PM, said:

There is no double heat-efficiency for DHS in MWO

Fair. I don't actually use SHS to know.

Curccu, on 03 October 2023 - 10:13 PM, said:

TBut yes very few builds that are better with SHS than DHS (some light MG builds that want to use FF and endo and also has small engine limit) some Supernova / Highlander IIC builds that you just want to cram stupid amount of SHS in the mech.

One way to want people to use SHS is (this will be very unpopular idea) to nerf DHS heat cap increase with heavy hand, This would also lower these massive alphas we got that I have understood not many actually want.

Doable in XML, but I'd rather we shouldn't.

[LordNothing]

as i understand it shs actually has better heat capacity. its just to unlock it you need to pack like 24+ of them. that mean no ammo weapons, usually no armor upgrades, and sometimes an xl engine to make tonnage. at least thats how my shs boat tbolt is built. for this you get 3, perhaps 4 alphas before you need to disengage and cool off. since they are shs, that will take awhile even for this many stds.

this is probibly acceptable for vomit brawlers, so long as they only engage 1v1s in isolated combat but can easily be overwhelmed to saturation when dealing with multiple targets. however since such mechs usually pack a mix of large and medium lasers, they are better for midrange trading, and xl is bad for brawling. and when you do midrage poke trading, it pays off more to have faster cooldown and more firepower without repeat alpha capability which makes dubs come out ahead. so really there are very few situations and even fewer builds where shs boating is viable. it may pay off to tank heat on stealth mechs since you lose some dissipation. stealth for a number of alphas, hide, cool and repeat, but then again good luck finding the tonnage.

you could up the heat capacity a bit so tanking heat is a more viable build option. being able to tank heat with a wider variety of weapons sure would help, where you can do it with perhaps as few as 20. otherwise they will only be used in the occasional case where heat is not a problem and where space is more valuable than tonnage.

Edited by LordNothing, 04 October 2023 - 12:23 AM.

[Curccu]

LordNothing, on 04 October 2023 - 12:11 AM, said:

as i understand it shs actually has better heat capacity. its just to unlock it you need to pack like 24+ of them. that mean no ammo weapons, usually no armor upgrades, and sometimes an xl engine to make tonnage. at least thats how my shs boat tbolt is built. for this you get 3, perhaps 4 alphas before you need to disengage and cool off. since they are shs, that will take awhile even for this many stds.

Unfortunately as your example you just lose by having SHS, your build is not hot enough to gain SHS advantage.
tdr-9se - Your build

tdr-9se Faster LFE with better sustained DPS
tdr-9se Faster XL with better sustained DPS.

Personally I would probably go with something like this tdr-9se because jump jets are good. and in this case XL doesn't give enough benefit compared to risk.

[MeanMachinE]

I think the current system works pretty well. Usually single heat sinks can be used in IS assaults using (long range) laser womit. Some clan assaults with shs are also ok.

Like:
https://mwo.nav-alph...fc7361af_ANH-1P
https://mwo.nav-alph...68dfb51b_ANH-1P
https://mwo.nav-alph...bcfe3322_ANH-1P

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

both HS have their uses right now, and there is NO need to reinvent the wheel.
better balance something else, or even "betterer" (looks too good to not type it):
devtime for the matchmaker, for map-reworks etc

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 04 October 2023 - 03:23 AM.

[Curccu]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 04 October 2023 - 03:22 AM, said:

if it ain't broken, don't fix it.

both HS have their uses right now, and there is NO need to reinvent the wheel.
better balance something else, or even "betterer" (looks too good to not type it):
devtime for the matchmaker, for map-reworks etc

SHS could use small buff and doesn't really take dev time to change XML value to 10% higher... compared to map-reworks. Most likely same dude doesn't do spreadsheet balancing and map designing.

[LordNothing]

Curccu, on 04 October 2023 - 01:38 AM, said:

Unfortunately as your example you just lose by having SHS, your build is not hot enough to gain SHS advantage.
tdr-9se - Your build

tdr-9se Faster LFE with better sustained DPS
tdr-9se Faster XL with better sustained DPS.

Personally I would probably go with something like this tdr-9se because jump jets are good. and in this case XL doesn't give enough benefit compared to risk.

its an old build i dont use anymore that i just used as an example. further down the post i explained why an shs boat really isnt viable. the build lends itself to hill humping and therefore doesnt need to tank heat, so yea dhs is better. i do see utility for being able to fire 2 or 3 times but you just dont need it when you can cool off in cover.

thats actually why i want more capacity, because then you dont have to trade away so much meta for the multi-consecutive-alpha.

Edited by LordNothing, 04 October 2023 - 06:04 AM.

[BumbleBee]

I actually wouldnt mind a slight reduction on DHS Heat Capacity.

It would help reduce the amount of damage output for those who want to run Mechs that can keep on firing, and slow down the fire rate on those who want to run high alpha.

It would also allow SHS to be a viable choice on a few more builds than the rare few that they currently are, with slower cooling, but higher Heat Capacity.

Edited by BumbleBee, 04 October 2023 - 11:24 PM.

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

the problem with buffing shs - those buildS that are viable right now with em (not that many, but still), will be even better then
->
you fix 1problem, you create several new ones.


otoh I could agree on nerfing dhs a bit, and therefore "buffing" shs as a sideeffect;
what you can currently do with pure laserbuilds and especially with mixed-high-alpha-builds is .. astonishing.
could use a nudge down.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 05 October 2023 - 05:29 AM.

[LordNothing]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 05 October 2023 - 05:22 AM, said:

the problem with buffing shs - those buildS that are viable right now with em (not that many, but still), will be even better then
->
you fix 1problem, you create several new ones.


otoh I could agree on nerfing dhs a bit, and therefore "buffing" shs as a sideeffect;
what you can currently do with pure laserbuilds and especially with mixed-high-alpha-builds is .. astonishing.
could use a nudge down.

thats kind of the point. when has anyone called an shs boat meta?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hot take: Make cDHS or single heat sinks the universal heat sink and remove the other types. Then leverage dissipation and capacity quirks to make mechs different, for example energy boat assaults might need higher dissipation on average to stay competitive with ballistic boats but not impact heat capacity to dissuade joke laser vomit builds (ie limit burst damage).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 October 2023 - 08:30 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 October 2023 - 08:30 AM, said:

Hot take: Make cDHS or single heat sinks the universal heat sink and remove the other types. Then leverage dissipation and capacity quirks to make mechs different, for example energy boat assaults might need higher dissipation on average to stay competitive with ballistic boats but not impact heat capacity to dissuade joke laser vomit builds (ie limit burst damage).

Well, the take is too hot. Highly goes against the lore, and messes up with the builds. Yeah I know it's smaller on the IS side but still. I want different competent cooling options because SHS are apparently a thing. And not making them a thing, while does solve the existence problem, it isn't conducive to build variety.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 05 October 2023 - 06:01 AM, said:

thats kind of the point. when has anyone called an shs boat meta?

It's a joke, that's what. There's just so much tonnage saving with DHS with respect to dissipation. You can allot more tonnage saved to actually threatening setu, than bulking your heat capacity up.

[Duke Falcon]

I love my ER-PPC boats... Pretty please, DO NOT TOUCH DHS!
But making SHS slightly viable may unlock some new optional builds?
If we may have XXL engines I would try an SHS laser-spam Thunderbolt just for sheer fun...

[LordNothing]

dhs is fine, we don't need to hobble them for equity. shs needs a role other than meeting the sinkage requirements of a handful of light mechs that cant fit dubs.

Edited by LordNothing, 11 October 2023 - 03:17 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

LordNothing, on 11 October 2023 - 03:16 PM, said:

dhs is fine, we don't need to hobble them for equity. shs needs a role other than meeting the sinkage requirements of a handful of light mechs that cant fit dubs.

I honestly just don't know how to make SHS relevant if DHS is a thing, not unless DHS is reigned in. Like who tf uses SHS in a serious build? Those that exist aren't even that common.

The dissipation isn't just as good as capacity, not unless it's a massive massive gap like if SHS allows 50 base capacity, while DHS has 30 base capacity.

The +dissipation when above +50% heat at least tunes the DHS specifically for high-heat builds.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 11 October 2023 - 03:16 PM, said:

dhs is fine, we don't need to hobble them for equity. shs needs a role other than meeting the sinkage requirements of a handful of light mechs that cant fit dubs.

I honestly don't think it is possible other than as a potentially slightly weaker option to the DHS (like 0.18-0.2/s) when you are space constrained to try to compete with Clan DHS if you have the tonnage but not the space. Other than I don't really see anything really providing compensation. Kinda why at this point I'd rather just have a universal heat sink. If you find an interesting mechanic it could always be re-introduced but until such time, seems healthier for the game to just have one.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 11 October 2023 - 03:57 PM, said:

I honestly don't think it is possible other than as a potentially slightly weaker option to the DHS (like 0.18-0.2/s) when you are space constrained to try to compete with Clan DHS if you have the tonnage but not the space. Other than I don't really see anything really providing compensation. Kinda why at this point I'd rather just have a universal heat sink. If you find an interesting mechanic it could always be re-introduced but until such time, seems healthier for the game to just have one.

Could also just let Heat Sink mixing, with fixed engine heat sink types. As in you can put SHS where a DHS won't fit when you don't have enough slots for a DHS but has the tons.

Unfortunately, lore purists don't want that.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 October 2023 - 06:31 PM.