15 replies to this topic

[Saved By The Bell]

I have the problems with New HPG these days in all fights.
This map is very hard for all alone players. It needs very good coordinated team to win.

First lets remember old HPG, very good map.
You could win in such ways:
1) Aggressive push near center. It was need speed and control of murder ball. But it was simple: if murder ball was catching me, I usually dropped to basement, run to opposite entrance and after that I was behind murder ball, shooting their backs. Simple.
2) Slow assault is a bit harder. You had to wait near start gates, watching enemy movement. Shooting and waiting for moment to join your fast teammates.
If enemy murderball run to kill you, you already standing in good defense position, so you can throw several alfa before defeat, while enemies left center and will lose eventually.
3) Snipers. Not so popular. Light sniper can jump to wall fast, but he is not doing good damage (and enemy team can see you from center platform perfectly).
Heavy assault must walk some time outside to get the wall, while his team fighting without support. And if he drops the wall, no way he can get there again.

So it was very good balanced map. You could use LRMs too, somehow.

So what the ***t we have today. My most terrible view:
Starting, moving the start gates. I wait some time for team. Then I see several snipers on right side. Ok, this side is bad. Lets look left side. I see several snipers on left side... And this is not light snipers, as you know. Ok team must stay here or defend in basement (which usually 90% defeat). So it need so much coordinated work, its just crazy level.

Sometimes I went to kill snipers or alone mechs on wall with arc wolf or viper. Its not easy task and time consuming. And after killing, my team in center is half-dead.

Sometimes enemy split, half of them in basement. So we can kill all around basement. Somebody even calls for that. But usually team don't move, don't use chance. Because its not a real premade team, as you understand.

Yesterday "I have a pair of ac20, so I go to basement". All big guys went to basement while I was running in viper outside and shooting alone enemy assault. Of course, all guys in basement died with 150-300 damage. How could it be. Where is your pair ac20?

So I want to say in the end, HPG is most hard map today, requires premade team. This map should be changed.

[Vonbach]

I'd rather die in the basement than be shot to pieces by snipers.

[MechB Kotare]

Old HPG was a very s..t map.

Unaccesible walls for shadow cats and mist lynxes to snipe/troll from with cERLLs and cERPPCs. At least now you don't need JJs to contest snipers. From certain angles and positions you could get there with Direwolves and Night Gyrs too.

90% of matches ended up nascaring counter clockwise. I will rather play snipe poke game than having that rotation bullcrap full of random stuff to get stuck on, in game again. Also new HPG is much more balanced than the old one, and gives you much more movement options.

Old HPG was bad for snipers unless you were using shadow cats, spiders, Arctic Cheetas etc etc, so pls, lets stop with the whole ''good and balanced'' delusion.

Also screw king of the hill map designs.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 08 October 2023 - 05:51 AM.

[Davegt27]

I liked the old HPG
I dislike the new HPG

I wished they would have worked on improving Alpine Peaks

you get used to things (sort of) until the things you need to get used to become insurmountable
It is what it is

[epikt]

Vonbach, on 08 October 2023 - 04:21 AM, said:

I'd rather die in the basement than be shot to pieces by snipers.

And you leave your team fight 11v12, they thank you very much.

[Saved By The Bell]

I thought, may be only me struggle, so you can give your advice too.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechB Kotare, on 08 October 2023 - 05:49 AM, said:

Old HPG was bad for snipers unless you were using shadow cats, spiders, Arctic Cheetas etc etc, so pls, lets stop with the whole ''good and balanced'' delusion.

And typically those mechs were a waste because they couldn't do enough damage, threaten space well enough, or just couldn't do anything reasonable. Making it more accessible wasn't the play, removing it as a thing was.

Nascar still happens because Nascar is well, natural play when two uncoordinated firing lines oppose each other. No one wants to be at the tail and hold the line so everyone just rotates the same direction.

What I don't understand is why basement still exists, the map would be much better without basement entirely, both old and new.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 October 2023 - 10:31 AM.

[JediPanther]

epikt, on 08 October 2023 - 07:04 AM, said:

And you leave your team fight 11v12, they thank you very much.

Actually the basement strategy can work. It avoids all the wall snipers and lrm/atms. The only real problems with it are:
1. Some one always "gets bored" leaving the basement only to be killed giving you the 0-1 loss.
2. Both teams might be non comital to the fight once it starts trying to scatter from the basement going back to out side.
3. The team able to focus fire and has the less missile boats usually wins.

It is do-able in qp but not as often now days. The best strategy now is to wait and see how much of the team tries to play wall sniper. If you see the most of the team or majority of assaults head to the walls it'll be just another match of who can snipe better.

[Dr Wubs]

MechB Kotare, on 08 October 2023 - 05:49 AM, said:

Old HPG was bad for snipers

And that's why it got 'fixed'. So that we could have more snipers. Yay...

And that's why Alpine doesn't get fixed.

Because it's a sniper map.

Edited by Dr Wubs, 08 October 2023 - 05:48 PM.

[epikt]

JediPanther, on 08 October 2023 - 10:44 AM, said:

Actually the basement strategy can work.

Do you realize it's even more hazardous that the "regular" strat, thus even rarer to work in QP?
It requires that all mechs join the basement, even the slow ones that are most likely to be harassed by fast enemies without any support from your team... good luck.

There are only two situations when basement is viable:
- when you have the ticket lead on domination (and the enemy already have destroyed your generators and can't reset your timer anymore)
- when you have the kill lead on skirmish
In both situations it makes for very boring games.

It's time players learn to, on one hand, deal with enemy snipers and, on the other hand, fight with the support of their overwatch mechs.

[pbiggz]

old HPG was easily griefed, but outside of that it was a boring midrange donut with a big central feature.

New HPG gives snipers just as much room as it gives brawlers. If either strategy is giving you trouble, its a personal problem.



Player base can't continue to complain about bad maps, then scream every time they get a map that is anything but a uniform grey bowl with a single central feature for people to run around.

[TheCaptainJZ]

Lower the height of the walls by ~10-20% on the sides forming the bases and 50-70% in between the two sides so it's not all one level but two high sides and two low sides that can be easily walked up from the middle. Still a good place to snipe from but not from the same altitude all around the map. Then look at changing other cover so there is some cover to approach the snipers from climbing the walls. The wall is too hard to approach as it currently stands. it mainly requires backtracking all the way into the opposite base to take a ramp up where your approach is protected somewhat. It's at least in a different direction than they are facing. I think this would be a moderate change that could help without redesigning the whole map. There is definitely a lot of exposure in the main fighting area and it's too easy to snipe from any angle. I'd like to add some small sections of walls or cover on the outside edge of the main middle area too.

[MechB Kotare]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 10:30 AM, said:

And typically those mechs were a waste because they couldn't do enough damage, threaten space well enough, or just couldn't do anything reasonable. Making it more accessible wasn't the play, removing it as a thing was.

Shadowcat with 3x cERLL or 2x cERPPCs couldn't do enough damage? Arctic cheetah with 2x cERLL couldn't do any damage in 15 minutes? what if A night gyr or a cERLL Direwolf got there?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 10:30 AM, said:

Nascar still happens because Nascar is well, natural play when two uncoordinated firing lines oppose each other. No one wants to be at the tail and hold the line so everyone just rotates the same direction.

Sure, but map design plays a humongous part in it.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 October 2023 - 10:30 AM, said:

What I don't understand is why basement still exists, the map would be much better without basement entirely, both old and new.

Basement is especially good now, for brawlers to get across map to walls where snipers camp.

Dr Wubs, on 08 October 2023 - 05:48 PM, said:

And that's why Alpine doesn't get fixed.

Because it's a sniper map.

Sure. But Alpine is also like 30% chance to apear in map selection rotation, which means it is acknowledged for having flaws of its own.

Compare it now to for example Solaris City, which is pure brawling map. No viable sniping possible on that map, unless you are in a fast moving, masc and JJ wielding mech.

I understand that for someone like you, who apparently likes face hugging fights under 400m, solaris' existence seems fair.

What i don't understand is, why one's existence should be ok, and others not.

Also Solaris City has no decreased chances of getting into map rotation.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 11 October 2023 - 10:16 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MechB Kotare, on 11 October 2023 - 10:09 AM, said:

Shadowcat with 3x cERLL or 2x cERPPCs couldn't do enough damage? Arctic cheetah with 2x cERLL couldn't do any damage in 15 minutes? what if A night gyr or a cERLL Direwolf got there?

I don't remember ever being concerned about any of those during comp, it was generally a lesser team that tried that. If they wasted a light on that, you abused that an picked at their flanks, jumped the light and gained cap control, or some combination of that. If they wasted a medium on that, you used a light to deal with a medium which is a trade in favor of the light. That or you just ignored it and punished the main body.

QP, they were annoying, but no more annoying than what currently happens honestly. Except in QP no one is really using basement to push against them unfettered so it ends up just making the wall a stronger position. I mean HPG was always rough in QP, but I don't think any of this made it better honestly.

If it made comp more interesting, cool, just decrease the chances in QP then I guess.

MechB Kotare, on 11 October 2023 - 10:09 AM, said:

Sure, but map design plays a humongous part in it.

Yeah I'm gonna disagree here, unless a map somehow is discouraging concave firing lines (even brawly Solaris it happens), rotations will happen. People take angles, try to push the flanks of the enemy main body (often following lights), and instead of holding the current angles people shift the same way while the tail realizing they are about to be isolated also shifts in the futile hope they will get support rather than holding the line to delay or trying to find a ratty corner to whole up in to again delay.

Only so many mechs can hold an angle but because there is a lack of trust because it is QP you see people shift you try to stay as murder ball as possible and thus it begins. I'd say it is worse because of 12v12 though, given you have to spread out more to actually get online (should your team not be passive and get guns online).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 11 October 2023 - 10:58 AM.

[An6ryMan69]

With the new HPG I either go to the wall to snipe or to the basement, and sometimes still go to the basement if the enemy is clearly out-sniping us. Playing the middle ground I have found to be a losing strategy overall...a VERY losing strategy. Not my favorite map for sure.