17 replies to this topic

[ESC 907]

It really sounds like the Cauldron and Devs got tunnel-vision on Clan Heavies & Assaults with the Clan-Double Heat Sink nerf. Has it been seriously considered how such a nerf would effect Clan Lights & Mediums?!

And the "problem" with the META of maximizing Heat & Damage per Alpha Strike is an issue for both Clans and IS. How would such a nerf address Binary-Boats?

Could this issue not be addressed with lowered Heat-Sink-Limits and increased Ghost-Heat?

[Void Angel]

Er, what're they looking to do?

[ESC 907]

There is an interesting discussion on the Cauldron's plans in this NGNG video:

[KursedVixen]

ESC 907, on 09 October 2023 - 12:13 PM, said:

It really sounds like the Cauldron and Devs got tunnel-vision on Clan Heavies & Assaults with the Clan-Double Heat Sink nerf. Has it been seriously considered how such a nerf would effect Clan Lights & Mediums?!

And the "problem" with the META of maximizing Heat & Damage per Alpha Strike is an issue for both Clans and IS. How would such a nerf address Binary-Boats?

Could this issue not be addressed with lowered Heat-Sink-Limits and increased Ghost-Heat?

they buffed single heat sinks to make them viable awhile ago.

if anything clan heat sinks should have slightly better cooling than IS ones to compensate just a little for the extra heat all their weapons do.


And don't get me started on Clan guass rifle before it was fixed.

Edited by KursedVixen, 11 October 2023 - 04:17 AM.

[Duke Falcon]

ESC 907, on 09 October 2023 - 12:13 PM, said:

It really sounds like the Cauldron and Devs got tunnel-vision on Clan Heavies & Assaults with the Clan-Double Heat Sink nerf. Has it been seriously considered how such a nerf would effect Clan Lights & Mediums?!

And the "problem" with the META of maximizing Heat & Damage per Alpha Strike is an issue for both Clans and IS. How would such a nerf address Binary-Boats?

Could this issue not be addressed with lowered Heat-Sink-Limits and increased Ghost-Heat?

They not thought about it well and through. They just slashing around themselves like a vile child and not care the slightest.
The usual thing what happens every month:
Bad decisions => Forum promise to kill them => "Fixing" what make things worse => Rinse and repeat!

Yeah, sadly, the usual...

[Void Angel]

KursedVixen, on 11 October 2023 - 04:16 AM, said:

they buffed single heat sinks to make them viable awhile ago.

if anything clan heat sinks should have slightly better cooling than IS ones to compensate just a little for the extra heat all their weapons do.


And don't get me started on Clan guass rifle before it was fixed.

Oh, here we go. "Clan DHS should be buffed, so that we can evade the balancing mechanics of Clan weapons!" They're already much better than the IS DHS. And they'll likely still be better, depending on how much they nerf capacity. Clan Alpha-and-cool builds like This One are extremely powerful, given the superior range of Clan lasers - and with HAGvomit Builds sporting insane alphas... The Dire Wolf build I just linked can destroy most Assault 'mechs' side torsos in one hit. The fact that it can't do it very often will be of small consolation to the enemy Heavies, and even Assaults, that it nearly cores in a single trade - not to mention the Cougars and whatnot that it flat-out murders.

As for the OP... well, Clan Lights and Mediums have the same issue at a lower scale, and will also be affected less - for the very simple reason that they don't have the tonnage to boat heat sinks. Remember, sustained dps isn't nerfed nearly as much as alphas - and the discussion you linked talked about that specifically.

Heck, they're not actually looking to nerf DHS capacity yet. They're changing coolshots first, and seeing how it works; they're also still split multiple ways about these changes, and they're scheduled for months from now.

It's way too early to declare that the sky is falling.

[Far Reach]

Void Angel, on 11 October 2023 - 02:42 PM, said:

Oh, here we go. "Clan DHS should be buffed, so that we can evade the balancing mechanics of Clan weapons!" They're already much better than the IS DHS. And they'll likely still be better, depending on how much they nerf capacity. Clan Alpha-and-cool builds like This One are extremely powerful, given the superior range of Clan lasers - and with HAGvomit Builds sporting insane alphas... The Dire Wolf build I just linked can destroy most Assault 'mechs' side torsos in one hit. The fact that it can't do it very often will be of small consolation to the enemy Heavies, and even Assaults, that it nearly cores in a single trade - not to mention the Cougars and whatnot that it flat-out murders.

As for the OP... well, Clan Lights and Mediums have the same issue at a lower scale, and will also be affected less - for the very simple reason that they don't have the tonnage to boat heat sinks. Remember, sustained dps isn't nerfed nearly as much as alphas - and the discussion you linked talked about that specifically.

Heck, they're not actually looking to nerf DHS capacity yet. They're changing coolshots first, and seeing how it works; they're also still split multiple ways about these changes, and they're scheduled for months from now.

It's way too early to declare that the sky is falling.

Just here to remind you they *are* in fact nerfing CDHS.

[Void Angel]

Yep, and a good thing, too. But that information came out after this post - and it's still too early to decry the fallen sky.

[KursedVixen]

ESC 907, on 09 October 2023 - 12:13 PM, said:

It really sounds like the Cauldron and Devs got tunnel-vision on Clan Heavies & Assaults with the Clan-Double Heat Sink nerf. Has it been seriously considered how such a nerf would effect Clan Lights & Mediums?!

And the "problem" with the META of maximizing Heat & Damage per Alpha Strike is an issue for both Clans and IS. How would such a nerf address Binary-Boats?

Could this issue not be addressed with lowered Heat-Sink-Limits and increased Ghost-Heat?

Binary is IS and IS must have all the good stuff and clans the ****** stuff.
Though they did kinda change binary in the latest patch.

[KursedVixen]

ESC 907, on 09 October 2023 - 12:13 PM, said:

It really sounds like the Cauldron and Devs got tunnel-vision on Clan Heavies & Assaults with the Clan-Double Heat Sink nerf. Has it been seriously considered how such a nerf would effect Clan Lights & Mediums?!

And the "problem" with the META of maximizing Heat & Damage per Alpha Strike is an issue for both Clans and IS. How would such a nerf address Binary-Boats?

Could this issue not be addressed with lowered Heat-Sink-Limits and increased Ghost-Heat?

It's going to happen and cauldron will rejoice when all clan mechs explode from overheating since they can't hold their heat anymore.... say goodbye to clan mechs Cauldron hated them forever and now they finnally found a way to make them obsolete.

I've been saying this for years that they wanted to nerf clans to the ground well now you have it.

Edited by KursedVixen, 22 November 2023 - 12:40 PM.

[Void Angel]

It's like the Mage forums in WoW. (Slight nerf.) "Waaaaaah! Our raid viability is being removed!1!!"

Once again, Clan DHS are a third better than the Inner Sphere option. This is why Clan builds have higher cooling rates and heat caps, which - along with space, tonnage, and range - compensates very nicely for their higher weapon heat, thanks.

It's hard to see how Lights and Mediums will suffer disproportionally, either. They're not using as many DHS, because they don't have the tonnage. Take the new Loyalty Wolfhound. It's almost exactly identical to the Wolfhound Grinner, and when loaded up with cMPLs, it has more firepower, and more range, and better heat efficiency (it's not in MechDB yet, so I can't show you, but take my word.) The only thing it doesn't have is more speed - because the Grinner cannot drop ferro-fibrous armor or engine rating to get more DHS; it doesn't have the space.

"But Void, how does an identical Clan Battlemech with an identical weapon loadout have better heat efficiency despite the Grinner's -10% heat quirk?!"

Well, I'm glad you asked! It's because the Wolfhound-C(L) has 14 fracking Double Heat Sinks, and the Grinner has 12. And the fact that the cMPL is one of the best energy weapons in the game.

[Void Angel]

Pulse laser comparisons aside, the difference between Clan and Inner Sphere DHLs is magnified the more tonnage you can devote to a laser build, both because of the smaller DHS and because of the lighter/smaller weapons. A few outlier 'mechs use SHS, but the vast majority cannot - and the two exception builds I know of? They're both Clan.

PS: they "kinda changed" Binary Laser Cannons by excluding the vast majority of Large Laser quirks that were previously working with that weapon system. It's a massive nerf to a lot of builds, and should satisfy anyone who felt Blazers were a problem.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Clan weapons are hotter because they shoot farther for more damage, using fewer tons and crits, with Endo and FF that use fewer crits and XLs that survive a ST loss. Clan DHS occupy 1 less crit meaning more of them can be slammed in around that nice Endo/Ferro/XL. I can pack 30DHS into a MADIIC after engine mounted DHS. There are NO IS mechs that can do that. Period.

Jesus tapdancing Christ how is this still a point of contention.

Void Angel, on 22 November 2023 - 05:29 PM, said:

It's like the Mage forums in WoW. (Slight nerf.) "Waaaaaah! Our raid viability is being removed!1!!"

Once again, Clan DHS are a third better than the Inner Sphere option. This is why Clan builds have higher cooling rates and heat caps, which - along with space, tonnage, and range - compensates very nicely for their higher weapon heat, thanks.

It's hard to see how Lights and Mediums will suffer disproportionally, either. They're not using as many DHS, because they don't have the tonnage. Take the new Loyalty Wolfhound. It's almost exactly identical to the Wolfhound Grinner, and when loaded up with cMPLs, it has more firepower, and more range, and better heat efficiency (it's not in MechDB yet, so I can't show you, but take my word.) The only thing it doesn't have is more speed - because the Grinner cannot drop ferro-fibrous armor or engine rating to get more DHS; it doesn't have the space.

"But Void, how does an identical Clan Battlemech with an identical weapon loadout have better heat efficiency despite the Grinner's -10% heat quirk?!"

Well, I'm glad you asked! It's because the Wolfhound-C(L) has 14 fracking Double Heat Sinks, and the Grinner has 12. And the fact that the cMPL is one of the best energy weapons in the game.

Clan pulses in general are some of the best weapons in the game. The CLPL is monstrous in a RFLIIC or MADIIC. I put 4LPL 3ERML in the RFL and as long as I don't fall prey to the NASCAR (it's kind of pokey) and get into position it absolutely obliterates stuff with an alpha (and then I hide lol)

Edited by the check engine light, 23 November 2023 - 02:01 PM.

[Void Angel]

And they don't seem to care if you do that - they just want there to be a reasonable choice about whether to do it with the max alpha possible or not. Reducing heat efficiency of those kinds of builds is a good thing, I think.

[ESC 907]

And I am of the opinion that a better way to dissuade these max-Alpha builds is to slap the shnoz outta them with Ghost Heat! Do not nerf the Heat Sinks, nerf the weapons that allow for this tactic (in a reasonable way, unlike how they nerfed my poor C-MPLs back in '18). Increase Ghost Heat penalties such that players are unable to boat 3-4 Larges with 5-8 Mediums! Make it such that an Alpha Strike does not simply edge their heat capacity, but rockets them into a deadly overheat!

[Void Angel]

So forego trying to fix one of the root causes, and implement a bunch of individual solutions to fix the symptoms one at a time? That's like wrapping a loose part in duct tape to avoid tightening a bolt.

Let me try to break it down for the folks who seem confused:

• Clan DHS are much better than their Inner Sphere counterparts, often completely defraying the differences in weapon heat.
  
• Heat is a balancing mechanic for weapons in Battletech/MWO, but not the only balancing mechanic.
  
• Weapons of all categories can be used to achieve high alphas.
  
• The primary limitation affecting high alpha builds is the upper limit of a 'mech's Heat Capacity.
  
• Clan DHS increase a 'mech's heat capacity, with the same space advantages over the Inner Sphere equivalent tech.

Clan DHS have needed to make a meaningful trade-off against Inner Sphere DHS for a while - having fewer crit-hp doesn't really seem to cut it. Their massive space advantage for the same cooling vs. the Inner Sphere means that Clan builds generally run cooler, being able to plaster in enough DHS to defray the extra heat costs of their tonnage- and space-efficient energy weapons. This is what drives a lot of the high-alpha laservomit builds - it's not a coincidence that so many popular alpha builds are clan. Range and other factors play a part, but superior cooling is at the core of it. So that's first.


Then there's the problem that Battletech uses different balance mixes for different weapon systems. Ballistics have a much lower heat cost than any energy weapon of similar damage or range, but are much heavier and bulkier, plus dependent on ammo to boot. This means that most ballistic weapons have a large cost in space and tonnage even before Heat Sinks and projectile speeds are factored in. That's good; it makes customizing 'mechs more interesting, But it also makes limiting high-alpha builds with Heat Scale penalties more complex to do. After all, players can Mix Weapons to get around HSL penalties. \

Now of course you can just add HSL penalties until you stomp all the alphas down to manageable levels. It'll take a lot more steps, and create a bunch of individual mechanisms for balance, and make the HSL system ungodly complicated, but it'll work - until you release a new weapon system or 'mech with the right characteristics. Or until players just stagger their alpha and call it good.

Nerfing one core balance point - the interaction between C-DHS and maximum heat capacity - will have a chilling (haha) effect on the overall effectiveness of high-alpha builds without manually locking out the build style, ratcheting up the complexity of the game even more, or even nerfing the Clans' cooling rate advantage, keeping the tech bases more unique. It's a far more elegant solution, much more likely to succeed, and will cause issues with the actual weapons to become more clear. It's hands-down the better way to go about it.

Edited by Void Angel, 24 November 2023 - 02:08 PM.

[JumpingHunter]

Void Angel, on 24 November 2023 - 02:06 PM, said:

So forego trying to fix one of the root causes, and implement a bunch of individual solutions to fix the symptoms one at a time? That's like wrapping a loose part in duct tape to avoid tightening a bolt.

Let me try to break it down for the folks who seem confused:

• Clan DHS are much better than their Inner Sphere counterparts, often completely defraying the differences in weapon heat.
  
  
  
  
• Heat is a balancing mechanic for weapons in Battletech/MWO, but not the only balancing mechanic.
  
  
  
  
• Weapons of all categories can be used to achieve high alphas.
  
  
  
  
• The primary limitation affecting high alpha builds is the upper limit of a 'mech's Heat Capacity.
  
  
  
  
• Clan DHS increase a 'mech's heat capacity, with the same space advantages over the Inner Sphere equivalent tech.

Clan DHS have needed to make a meaningful trade-off against Inner Sphere DHS for a while - having fewer crit-hp doesn't really seem to cut it. Their massive space advantage for the same cooling vs. the Inner Sphere means that Clan builds generally run cooler, being able to plaster in enough DHS to defray the extra heat costs of their tonnage- and space-efficient energy weapons. This is what drives a lot of the high-alpha laservomit builds - it's not a coincidence that so many popular alpha builds are clan. Range and other factors play a part, but superior cooling is at the core of it. So that's first.




Then there's the problem that Battletech uses different balance mixes for different weapon systems. Ballistics have a much lower heat cost than any energy weapon of similar damage or range, but are much heavier and bulkier, plus dependent on ammo to boot. This means that most ballistic weapons have a large cost in space and tonnage even before Heat Sinks and projectile speeds are factored in. That's good; it makes customizing 'mechs more interesting, But it also makes limiting high-alpha builds with Heat Scale penalties more complex to do. After all, players can Mix Weapons to get around HSL penalties. \

Now of course you can just add HSL penalties until you stomp all the alphas down to manageable levels. It'll take a lot more steps, and create a bunch of individual mechanisms for balance, and make the HSL system ungodly complicated, but it'll work - until you release a new weapon system or 'mech with the right characteristics. Or until players just stagger their alpha and call it good.

Nerfing one core balance point - the interaction between C-DHS and maximum heat capacity - will have a chilling (haha) effect on the overall effectiveness of high-alpha builds without manually locking out the build style, ratcheting up the complexity of the game even more, or even nerfing the Clans' cooling rate advantage, keeping the tech bases more unique. It's a far more elegant solution, much more likely to succeed, and will cause issues with the actual weapons to become more clear. It's hands-down the better way to go about it.

That's a good explaination, basically what i was thinking about all that. Would be interesting to see how that goes in next patch. But my personal favourite solution (yet the one that won't ever be implemented by PGI), is to buff heat-damaging weapons, add Plasma Rifles and Plasma Cannons, and maybe Inferno-specific SRM launchers. That would make hot high-alpha builds much less of a problem, and would revive basically dead and unusable heat-damaging builds. But that's only a dream...

Edited by JumpingHunter, 24 November 2023 - 02:14 PM.

[martian]

JumpingHunter, on 24 November 2023 - 02:13 PM, said:

But my personal favourite solution (yet the one that won't ever be implemented by PGI), is to buff heat-damaging weapons, add Plasma Rifles and Plasma Cannons, and maybe Inferno-specific SRM launchers. That would make hot high-alpha builds much less of a problem, and would revive basically dead and unusable heat-damaging builds. But that's only a dream...

In the light of the recent X-Pulses and BLCs addition, I think that Plasma weapons would be fairly easy to implement too.