80 replies to this topic

[Brokmuk]

Hello,

i like to play support mech and i like to play with AMS and on the same time i am not able to carry the normal amount of offense weapon or i have not the same heat dissipation for carrying AMS Ammo instead of some cooler.

If someone plays with LRMs/MRMs..., they get points for damage, if I play with AMS and, for example, destroy 1000 missiles and support my entire team, I get zero points. I think that's unfair. Maybe with some calculation factor because it's a passive weapon, but anything is better than zero points,

It's a shame when someone takes on a support role and is then punished and not rewarded.

And if you think AMS has generated too much XP in the past, then at least give the AMS a general XP bonus like the Cockpit Items or CBill Boost or both, here too, anything is better than nothing.


kind regards
Brok

[Widowmaker1981]

AMS use should provide decent cbill rewards, but very very limted PSR, because AMS is passive and requires literally no skill to use and therefore its use shouldnt factor into how skillfull the system thinks you are.

[Curccu]

It gives zero MS because it really also requires zero skill, give some XP and CB... sure why not, but it doesn't make you better player.

[RickySpanish]

Sounds like it's working as intended. Even a 'Mech fully equipped with AMS can and should still keep up with team damage. Pure support roles are useless in MWO, thus they award no points.

[TercieI]

RickySpanish, on 01 November 2023 - 07:07 AM, said:

Sounds like it's working as intended. Even a 'Mech fully equipped with AMS can and should still keep up with team damage. Pure support roles are useless in MWO, thus they award no points.

This. You may enjoy playing this way, but you're not actually helping your team win, so no match score.

Now, wouldn't it be daft if Piranha rewarded this in events?

[martian]

Brokmuk, on 01 November 2023 - 05:20 AM, said:

Hello,

Hi!

Brokmuk, on 01 November 2023 - 05:20 AM, said:

i like to play support mech and i like to play with AMS and on the same time i am not able to carry the normal amount of offense weapon or i have not the same heat dissipation for carrying AMS Ammo instead of some cooler.

Inner Sphere AMS weighs 0.5 ton, with 0.5 ton of ammo (1500 rounds) the total is 1 ton.
Inner Sphere AMS weighs 1.5 ton.

Clan AMS weighs 0.5 ton, with 0.5 ton of ammo (1500 rounds) the total is 1 ton.
Clan LAMS weighs 1 ton.

Unless you play tiny light 'Mechs, these numbers are hardly 'Mech-breaking. Typically, we are talking about the weight and dimensions of one double heat sink.

In the end, it is your choice. You want better protection against missiles? You must sacrifice something else. Simple, and also very common in the 'Mech design.

Brokmuk, on 01 November 2023 - 05:20 AM, said:

If someone plays with LRMs/MRMs..., they get points for damage, if I play with AMS and, for example, destroy 1000 missiles and support my entire team, I get zero points. I think that's unfair.

It is fair. Your team mates are using their LRMs / MRMs to actually dish out some damage and kill or cripple enemy 'Mechs, and to bring the game towards the victorious end.

Many of those enemy missiles are actually harmless. They would hit empty ground, hard cover or fly into the sky harmlessly.

Brokmuk, on 01 November 2023 - 05:20 AM, said:

It's a shame when someone takes on a support role and is then punished and not rewarded.

You can equip your 'Mech with AMS AND use your 'Mech's weapons to actually kill or damage enemy 'Mechs at the same time. That would be even better support of your team's effort.

Brokmuk, on 01 November 2023 - 05:20 AM, said:

Maybe with some calculation factor because it's a passive weapon, but anything is better than zero points,
And if you think AMS has generated too much XP in the past, then at least give the AMS a general XP bonus like the Cockpit Items or CBill Boost or both, here too, anything is better than nothing.

kind regards
Brok

It would be a nonsense for AMS to generate Match Score / Pilot Skill Bonus, because AMS works automatically and no display of piloting or gunnery skills is required for its function.

Ditto for XP. Flanking. Scouting. Capturing bases. Killing enemy 'Mechs, etc. - these actions at least require some active input. AMS is just a passive item that you equip in the 'Mechlab and do not touch it for the rest of the game.

But I think that some C-Bills bonus would be acceptable, if you wish.

[CFC Conky]

Perhaps a bonus of some kind could be earned based on the number of missiles destroyed. Below a certain threshold there is no pay-out, then scales up from there.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[ScrapIron Prime]

When I'm playing a "support mech" I load up ECM or AMS and glue myself to an assault mech, then support it with PPC's or blue lasers at range and small pulse lasers or SRMs to keep the fleas and fish off of it. That last part is where I get my match score... plus the increased chance of a win for keeping that Assault mech in the fight.

Like this fellow for the increased seismic sensor range. Contributes at range, shoots fish and fleas.
https://mwo.nav-alph...96061944_KTO-19

[foamyesque]

martian, on 01 November 2023 - 08:30 AM, said:

Hi!

Inner Sphere AMS weighs 0.5 ton, with 0.5 ton of ammo (1500 rounds) the total is 1 ton.
Inner Sphere AMS weighs 1.5 ton.

Clan AMS weighs 0.5 ton, with 0.5 ton of ammo (1500 rounds) the total is 1 ton.
Clan LAMS weighs 1 ton.

Unless you play tiny light 'Mechs, these numbers are hardly 'Mech-breaking. Typically, we are talking about the weight and dimensions of one double heat sink.

In the end, it is your choice. You want better protection against missiles? You must sacrifice something else. Simple, and also very common in the 'Mech design.

One AMS is pretty easy to slot and almost any 'mech can do it or has made a deliberate decision not to in order to fit something else because of slot, omnipod, or tonnage concerns (e.g. it can be the difference between getting an AC/20 + LFE in a torso on the Sphere side, or cost you a desired hardpoint omnipod on Clan, etc). Those scenarios aren't the ones people get upset about.

Where it feels bad is when you've got machines whose key distinguishing point is that you can bring lots of AMS to the field, and you get nothing for that (except, presumably, a better win rate). The KFX-C, the Corsair 7A, the triple AMS Novas, that sort of thing. Those mechs are set apart by being able to bring that much AMS, and if you fill them out to their full extent, it cuts fairly sharply into their available tonnage and crit room, and therefore their overall firepower.

So you know, going in, that if you're driving an AMS machine you're going to pay for it in less damage done, all else equal. Which means. since match score is dominated by damage, having AMS on your 'mech is going to be a drag on it. And since players respond to incentives, it makes AMS less often equipped, which means people complain more about LRMs, which means LRMs get nerfed, which makes AMS less useful, and etc.

Quote

Many of those enemy missiles are actually harmless. They would hit empty ground, hard cover or fly into the sky harmlessly.

My hit rate with LRMs is around 40% and 50% for MRMs, according to the stats page. Note that that includes missiles shot down due to AMS, so the on-target percentage is obviously higher. But taking that as a baseline, yes, many of the incoming missiles an AMS would shoot down would miss in one fashion or another, but when you put up 1k missiles shot down -- not uncommon with stacked AMS; I've broken 2,000 in some games -- that has a noticeable effect on the battle; it's removing one or more assault 'mech's worth of firepower from the fight.

You paid for it, you got the results out of it -- and you need to position well and stay alive to get high AMS shootdowns just like any other machine needs to do to perform -- and I think match score and CBill rewards should reflect that.

Take a 50% hit-rate as a baseline. Cut that in half again to reflect that AMS does autofire. Cut that in half again to allow for the fact that saving damage is a lot less valuable than doing damage. Assume that every missile only does one point of damage (since even though AMS can and will shoot down ATMs and SRMs, the majority of missiles destroyed are going to be LRMs and MRMs). Then score that like it's damage done, which means getting roughly half of it in match score.

So if you shoot down a thousand incoming missiles the game scores it like you did 125 damage and awards you 60 match score, whereas a typical single AMS system on a 'mech that's not playing goalkeeper for anyone except themselves might hit 240 missiles if there's a bunch flying and they last to the end. That gets scored like you did a whopping extra 30 damage for another 15 match score.

These won't break anything in terms of tiering but it means that if you're doing your job with AMS and protecting your team, you get some compensation for the guns you couldn't carry. If you feel these rewards are still too generous they could be downscaled, but that's the approach I would use.

[VeeOt Dragon]

as someone on both sides of the AMS equation (i play LRMs quite often and also run AMS whenever i can fit it and even my Corsair-7A when in the mood) i have to say that AMS should by no means give Match score. don't get me wrong i think you should get C-bills based on Missiles destroyed but not MS, you don't get MS for bringing ECM and its almost as much of a hard counter to Locking weapons as AMS. so yeah something like 5 C-bills per missile or some such or even 5 C-bills per point of damage negated (so shooting down a n SRM would net you more than an LRM.) with shooting down a NARC giving say 50 C-Bills by itself.

hell i also think you should get rewards from TAG/NARC as well.

Edited by VeeOt Dragon, 02 November 2023 - 01:39 PM.

[LordNothing]

i think that the original scoring was too generous. scoring it the same as damage was silly, but not that it needed to be removed completely. scoring a point for every 4 or 5 missiles is where it needed to go. team support should be rewarded.

the real elephant in the room is nobody is using lerms anymore, and thus ams is pointless.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 November 2023 - 06:48 PM.

[VeeOt Dragon]

i still use LRMs and always will. they can nerf them further and further into the ground and i will still use em because i like them F the Cauldron and their anti-LRM bias.

[LordNothing]

the problem is the cauldron is trying to balance for the rare coordinated 12 man t1 lerm drop in fp when they should be balancing for the less rare semi-coordinated drunken 4 man t3 lerm drop in qp.

i find i do better in 30 tube mediums than i do in lerm assaults with 60+ tubes, if they really wanted to crack down on teams massing lerms, the way to do that is to bring in the gh limits and increase the penalties. you can't just throw on another nerf, you would need to give something back. the thing lerms really need is a reduction in lock time, especially in los and especially at shorter ranges. since streaks are also weak and atms received close range nerfs. they all lean weak and underused and its a good time to buff the lock mechanics. so extend the time vs range curve all the way down to zero lock time inside 60m.

tweak other things too. return self-tag lock time buffs. make targeting computers work so you are encouraged to stack tc rather than tubes to get better results. also side grade narc so it has less duration but also less cooldown to help offset shorter lock time and maybe more missile hitpoints so ams doesn't eat it instantly.

Edited by LordNothing, 02 November 2023 - 08:27 PM.

[Ihlrath]

LordNothing, on 02 November 2023 - 07:06 PM, said:

the less rare semi-coordinated drunken 4 man t3 lerm drop in qp.

I see you've dropped in games with me then, good sir!

[VeeOt Dragon]

LordNothing, on 02 November 2023 - 07:06 PM, said:

the problem is the cauldron is trying to balance for the rare coordinated 12 man t1 lerm drop in fp when they should be balancing for the less rare semi-coordinated drunken 4 man t3 lerm drop in qp.

this exactly.

[Ignatius Audene]

Narc just needs to loose the hold lock capabilities and in return gain tracking, almost instant lock, ammo, velocity buff etc. Without the stupid narc situation lrm have room for buffs without killing coordinated play.

[1Exitar1]

RickySpanish, on 01 November 2023 - 07:07 AM, said:

Sounds like it's working as intended. Even a 'Mech fully equipped with AMS can and should still keep up with team damage. Pure support roles are useless in MWO, thus they award no points.

I disagree with the 'Even a mech fully equipped with ams can and should still keep up with team damage.' If you are loading your mech with 3 or 4 ams points, like in the Piranha, you will be VERY limited in the amount of weapons you can carry and the amount of ammo for those weapons. Heck, even using a Kitfox with 3 ams, will cut back on your weapons loadout. Keep up with team damage? Very doubtful.

As for needing no skill, sure you're not firing them yourself, but you need to be up close or even in front of your team in order to be effective. This means you need to be a good pilot so that you don't get yourself killed. Do I think it needs or should add to PSR? No, not really. It should add to your c-bill reward though and MAYBE a little towards exp and I do mean a little. I have been saying this since they changed AMS. Just yelling into the void, it seems.

[LordNothing]

ive never had problems getting damage in the poster child of ams support, the corsair 7a. of course the thing can pack pretty good firepower. its good for controlling areas with little cover because the amount of lerm saturation you would need to penetrate its iron dome is quite significant. its the dedicated iron domes the kitfoxes and piranhas that really lose out. their job is to move to protect slower mechs caught in the swarm.

i think were once again ignoring that it does take skill to use these mechs. its just not the stupid easy pixel alignment that people seem to think is the only skill in the game. they often forget that positioning and situational awareness are even harder skills. we have all had games where victory was a matter of who had a couple extra hitpoints to spare, which may not have been available for want of an iron dome. or if an assault is free to capitalize on an out of position mech because someone is screening lerms.

you could continue to simulate the missiles after they are destroyed (show them being shot down but continue running hit detection, then when they hit skip the damage call and just tick up the interceptions counter) and only reward those that would have hit a friendly mech (this may or may not count the ams mech covering its buttocks), this is fine and completely fair. i think it would be far easier to just reduce the payout rate and accept that some players are going to get paid a few extra cbills or xp. victory really is the only stat that matters, whatever it takes to get there.

or we can keep killing off playstyles and see if the game survives the exodous of players bored with the more limited gameplay potential.

[martian]

foamyesque, on 01 November 2023 - 10:18 AM, said:

..., but that's the approach I would use.

LordNothing, on 02 November 2023 - 06:46 PM, said:

i think that the original scoring was too generous. scoring it the same as damage was silly, but not that it needed to be removed completely. scoring a point for every 4 or 5 missiles is where it needed to go.

No matter how you try to turn it, the basic fact still stands: AMS is a zero-skill equipment that requires no player's input to function. Therefore, there is no reason why it should be included in the pilot skill rating.

Actually, that was the cause for its removal from the MS / PSR equation. Players were using AMS to artificially inflate their PSR. There is no reason why return to something what obviously did not work.

Reward it with C-Bills, if you really wish.

[LordNothing]

martian, on 05 November 2023 - 01:46 AM, said:

No matter how you try to turn it, the basic fact still stands: AMS is a zero-skill equipment that requires no player's input to function. Therefore, there is no reason why it should be included in the pilot skill rating.

Actually, that was the cause for its removal from the MS / PSR equation. Players were using AMS to artificially inflate their PSR. There is no reason why return to something what obviously did not work.

Reward it with C-Bills, if you really wish.

read the part where i said aiming isnt the only skill in the game. you still have to position correctly to protect the team, and you still have to know where to be and when, situational awareness. these things are skills. so it does not take zero skill. i am also fine with scoring it at half the rate or less, or only scoring missiles that would have hit. they should be worth something, certainly you need to do other things to make your match score but to completely remove scoring was just as bad.

the unfuning continues.

Edited by LordNothing, 05 November 2023 - 08:27 AM.