122 replies to this topic

[Reno Blade]

Would it be possible to get the game visuals and view-modes to interact better?
e.g. sensors being impacted by bad weather.

heat vision being a thing in 80% of maps to help identify mechs against the background, turning the game into greyscale most times... (was predator vision before).
-> Could one option be that heat vision is only active for 2 seconds (like a radar sweep) ? with a 10sec cooldown or so.
(using a secondary monitor is probably out of the picture, as it's the 2x render thing we had with the AdvZoom.)
- Would that still be fun, while making normal-vision the standard?
- Or would people just opt to reduce graphic down like in Quake times?


I like that heat vision on hot maps is not perfect, but you can still see black mech outlines in the distance on caustic. shouldn't warm/hot mechs be white also in the distance?
why are they black in the distance?

[Roodkapje]

Odwalla, on 22 November 2023 - 01:00 PM, said:

2. Improve visibility on maps.

For #2: Less dark maps, less fog, less smoke. Canyon Network and Alpine Peaks are two of the best examples for high visibility maps that I'd love to see more of. Having to switch to thermals on a majority of maps just to see enemy mechs and shoot at white blobs is not the best.

Reno Blade, on 23 November 2023 - 10:52 PM, said:

heat vision being a thing in 80% of maps to help identify mechs against the background, turning the game into greyscale most times... (was predator vision before).

You two have poorly calibrated monitors and should seriously look into that!

I can understand you don't like the new "Purple Map" or that "Dark Scrapyard" but if you experience that on almost all maps then your monitor needs calibrating A.S.A.P. to fix that issue !!

TIP : Contact your local camerashop and ask them if they can help you by explaining what you should do with the rented calibration tools

Quote

- Or would people just opt to reduce graphic down like in Quake times?

Sadly there are even manufacturers of monitors promoting their models because of certain modes that help you to see more in the dark shadows instead of experiencing them as the game developer had in mind...

MechB Kotare, on 23 November 2023 - 02:41 PM, said:

Hi! I stand by what I said plenty of times before in lots of different topics.

In all 10 years of MWO's history, the overall balance of in game weapons and mechs has never been better.

Gratitude to all cauldron members for what they have done in these past 2 years!

Funny how two people can have totally different view points :

IMHO the game has become one big ER LL and ER PPC camperfest

And now they release another LRM biased mech... OUCH !!!



As for my own DREAM :

I ONLY have ONE BIG WISH for 2024 and it's having Events that teach people how to play instead of just farm Match Score like a bunch of NPC's all the time!

How many times have I seen :
- Team splits up and gets steamrolled easily by the other team.
- Players not Spotting.
- Players not using their UAV or do not do it correctly if they even have one equipped at all...
- Players not Scanning their Target.
- SCANNING LEFT and SHOOTING RIGHT or worse...
- Players not even knowing how to use that R button!
- They do SCAN but do not see which COMPONENT they should SHOOT and get the ADVANTAGE !!!
- Light Mech players not running A.S.A.P. to the Domination Circle.
- Light/Fast Medium Mech players not escorting their slow Assault/Heavy buddies to the battlefield when needed !!
- The same players not protecting those buddies against annoying little mechs picking on them!

And a lot more stuff that I can't think of at the moment but have made the game less and less fun to play in general and makes me wish I could install some MOD for MWO so I can shoot NPC's with all the mech's I have gathered over the years!

[martian]

Reno Blade, on 23 November 2023 - 10:52 PM, said:

- Or would people just opt to reduce graphic down like in Quake times?

You do not have to talk about some ancient Quake.

In MWO you have got the User.cfg file at your disposal.

So the answer to your question is "Yes".

[DAEDALOS513]

Ralph Edwards, on 20 November 2023 - 02:03 PM, said:

I know that as with any balancing or group that tweaks the functions of the game, there will always be decisions players question. On the dev side I also know you can not please everyone. The player base for battletech and Mechwarrior games are also very passionate, myself included.

I prefer lore accurate designs and builds. I know this is not for everyone. There will always be the players who min/max everything and want to install delete or gib or whatever another player. Since the cauldron has been assisting the balance of this game, I have been able to play a mostly lore accurate mech and perform well in it fairly consistently. Yes I change armor values and sometimes add heatsinks so I can play in a map but the weapons are at least accurate if not always in the right places.

I do appreciate what the cauldron and pgi is doing but it feels that a large chunk of this year has been dedicated to reducing time to kill. In tier 3 down , you can round a corner and bang you are dead. Is there any plan on increasing the time to kill?

They don't believe in nerfing..

[Void Angel]

Except that they just did that very thing on two separate weapon systems...

[DAEDALOS513]

Void Angel, on 24 November 2023 - 12:43 PM, said:

Except that they just did that very thing on two separate weapon systems...

Wonders never cease. Likely something insignificant..

[Void Angel]

If you don't know how the game works, or pay any attention to the patch notes (which is the same thing,) you really can't expect to people to find your opinions about the game credible, you know.

This is not the first time they've nerfed stuff, either.

[DAEDALOS513]

Void Angel, on 24 November 2023 - 02:10 PM, said:

If you don't know how the game works, or pay any attention to the patch notes (which is the same thing,) you really can't expect to people to find your opinions about the game credible, you know.

This is not the first time they've nerfed stuff, either.

Is it really a nerf when you introduce an incredibly OP weapon system into the game and then nerf it a touch? A real nerf wchanges behaviour. I’ve been complaining about TTK for years, and I’m not the only one. It’s only gotten worse with people getting rekt at range. This isn’t a pleasant gaming experience for vets (bec this makes them reluctant to experiment outside of meta-builds) or newcomers (bec they lack general experience) alike. I’m so sick of seeing so-called ‘good players’ using every crutch in the game.. mainly ranged weapons. They do it bec they know it gives them an unfair advantage. If this is what makes someone ‘good’ they can keep it. I’m proud to say I haven’t dropped one match with HAG bec I see how unfairly strong it is.

We never got the mech resize they promised which would have increased TTK.. but they can at least bump armour values en-masse, a certain percentage, based on chassis. Just off the top of my head: lights could get a 20% boost, med’s 15%, heavies 10%, and assaults 5%.

You can try to dismiss my opinion all you like.. I’m not the only one that's been voicing this opinion.

Edited by DAEDALOS513, 24 November 2023 - 03:41 PM.

[Void Angel]

"Is it a nerf when you nerf it?" Yes, it's a nerf. It's not "dismissing your opinion" to point out that your own argument discredits your conclusion. Like "a real nerf changes behavior." That's just wrongheaded motivated reasoning. A good nerf increases viable options; you're using "people stop playing the builds I dislike" as your measuring stick for a "real" nerf - to the extent of dismissing a 20%-30% heat increase!

Ditto for not knowing how HAGs work from the inside. You've never used the weapon, because you think long-range combat is a "crutch," which is why all the good players use long-range builds. Why, they're not really that "good" at all, are they? Those crutch-using cripples need every crutch in the game to make them "good," by gum! But the best way to learn how to deal with a weapon, or chassis, or build, is to use it. By admitting that you proudly refuse to learn the weapon system, you are proclaiming your ignorance - so why should your opinion carry weight?

You're lying to yourself, man. And a fallacious appeal to common wisdom doesn't exactly reduce your credibility gap on this. Just because time to kill really has been a problem doesn't make you right when your logic is wrong.

Edited by Void Angel, 24 November 2023 - 08:09 PM.

[DAEDALOS513]

Void Angel, on 24 November 2023 - 08:09 PM, said:

"Is it a nerf when you nerf it?" Yes, it's a nerf. It's not "dismissing your opinion" to point out that your own argument discredits your conclusion. Like "a real nerf changes behavior." That's just wrongheaded motivated reasoning. A good nerf increases viable options; you're using "people stop playing the builds I dislike" as your measuring stick for a "real" nerf - to the extent of dismissing a 20%-30% heat increase!

Ditto for not knowing how HAGs work from the inside. You've never used the weapon, because you think long-range combat is a "crutch," which is why all the good players use long-range builds. Why, they're not really that "good" at all, are they? Those crutch-using cripples need every crutch in the game to make them "good," by gum! But the best way to learn how to deal with a weapon, or chassis, or build, is to use it. By admitting that you proudly refuse to learn the weapon system, you are proclaiming your ignorance - so why should your opinion carry weight?

You're lying to yourself, man. And a fallacious appeal to common wisdom doesn't exactly reduce your credibility gap on this. Just because time to kill really has been a problem doesn't make you right when your logic is wrong.

Breath

[JOATMON Incorporated]

I'm not a fan of messing with clan Double Heat Sinks. If weapons like lasers are being a problem as mentioned above, then address the lasers. Increase the time between shots, increase beam duration, increase heat on the lasers themselves. This goes for any other weapon system family as well. Address weapon families that are problems, or quirks on specific mechs if needed.
Please don't bring in a kneejerk shortsighted sledgehammer. This is going to require extensive rebalance in numerous other weapons and mech quirks to make them properly usable after the smoke from the immediate threat is cleared.

[Void Angel]

Well, it's not just the lasers, see; that's the problem - it's lasers combined with other guns, or other guns combined with lasers. So you have to tune all the weapons together in order to prevent the "Big-Alpha Smash" meta. But that's just one balance concern: now you have to worry about the relative effectiveness of DPS weapons, and the effectiveness of guns that aren't being boated, etc. And once (if, really) you get that all hammered out, you've got to do it all over again if you make any major changes, like adding new weapons or armor tech to the game.

Or, you can tackle one of the core causes of the issue: Clan DHS are too good. The Inner Sphere DHS is half again bigger than Clan models, and that space savings synergises really well with Clan weight saving technologies like Endo-steel. The net result is to give Clan 'mechs better cooling rates and higher heat caps in most of their builds. It's fueling builds like This Monstrosity, and that's not even the most meta alpha build.

So something probably needs to give, and it can't be space requirements - that's locked into a bunch of omnipods. So we're left with either cooling rate or heat capacity. And Clan builds need the option for efficient cooling. Clan energy weapons are hotter than the Inner Sphere, and that's partly to balance their superior range... and tonnage... and space... but it's also to balance Clan DHS. Heat capacity, on the other hand, makes it less efficient to poke - and that makes high-alpha builds less attractive. I mean, you can just blast people with Rocket Launchers - once. But how often do you see them in a game?

Remember that quite a few Clan Omnimechs simply do not have the pod space to mount extensively bulky weaponry, so nerfing lasers specifically while we're trying to stop the bigger, high-alpha 'mechs will hurt those 'mechs disproportionately.

Thus, nerfing heat capacity isn't a sledgehammer, it's a targeted surgical intervention to reduce the issue, then evaluate. Overall, well, we're still going to have to alter weapons balance somewhat, but we'll have to do a lot less of that if we address the heat cap first, then see where it stands. That seems to be the thought process PGI is going for, and I don't think they're wrong.

Edited by Void Angel, 25 November 2023 - 02:01 PM.

[Mechwarrior2342356]

Void Angel, on 24 November 2023 - 08:09 PM, said:

"Is it a nerf when you nerf it?" Yes, it's a nerf. It's not "dismissing your opinion" to point out that your own argument discredits your conclusion. Like "a real nerf changes behavior." That's just wrongheaded motivated reasoning. A good nerf increases viable options; you're using "people stop playing the builds I dislike" as your measuring stick for a "real" nerf - to the extent of dismissing a 20%-30% heat increase!

Ditto for not knowing how HAGs work from the inside. You've never used the weapon, because you think long-range combat is a "crutch," which is why all the good players use long-range builds. Why, they're not really that "good" at all, are they? Those crutch-using cripples need every crutch in the game to make them "good," by gum! But the best way to learn how to deal with a weapon, or chassis, or build, is to use it. By admitting that you proudly refuse to learn the weapon system, you are proclaiming your ignorance - so why should your opinion carry weight?

You're lying to yourself, man. And a fallacious appeal to common wisdom doesn't exactly reduce your credibility gap on this. Just because time to kill really has been a problem doesn't make you right when your logic is wrong.

Every time I hear Lights OP I'm reminded of how poorly most of my lights fare. My best has been the COM-2D with SRMs because it's actually pretty damn good. Most of the others take a lot more work to make work, the Commando is kind of made of ********.

[Void Angel]

After playing some of the weaker Lights, something like the Incubus feels a little like cheating.

[DoucheNugg3t]

is the "shrubbery" in the holidays mech lab smoke-a-ble ??

[CrimsonEye]

Tested the new loyal mech Piranha Decarion, honestly, compared to other loyal mechs, this mech felt like "meh"

Yes it's cool to have masc, but with lower rating engine compared to other variants, no laser/enregy quirks fo it, i don't find this mech is fun to play at all. Plus it's fragile.

A locust or incubus could easily caught up with it n kill it without masc ,

[JOATMON Incorporated]

Frost_Byte, on 20 November 2023 - 04:17 PM, said:

We have taken feedback before from players and incorporated into the game. Scorch buffs were almost entirely player driven, and they were a pretty heavily asked for change. That Uziel Belial with 270% MRM velocity(or something like that) actually came from a member of the feedback server as well. I believe it was Sir Epic Pwner? Not sure.

As for the Thunderbolt 10SE, we buffed it? I actually played it recently, it farms a fair bit better with the general cooldown quirk. The loss of armor can be lamented, but it does have more effective health now.

What you did to my baby Thunderbolt 10SE was NOT a buff.
Removing weapon velocity hurt PPC use at range against horizontally mobile targets.
Also as others have already pointed out, due to critical hits, structure hitpoints, are not as good as armor hitpoints.

Doing changes like lasers range 5% bonus being changed to energy 5% or even a universal range 5% are changes that feel like upgrades.
Changes like velocity being turned into something completely different feels more like someone was trying to force-fit a personal build into gameplay instead of enabling additional play use with existing chassis.

[JOATMON Incorporated]

Void Angel, on 25 November 2023 - 01:59 PM, said:

Well, it's not just the lasers, see; that's the problem - it's lasers combined with other guns, or other guns combined with lasers. So you have to tune all the weapons together in order to prevent the "Big-Alpha Smash" meta. But that's just one balance concern: now you have to worry about the relative effectiveness of DPS weapons, and the effectiveness of guns that aren't being boated, etc. And once (if, really) you get that all hammered out, you've got to do it all over again if you make any major changes, like adding new weapons or armor tech to the game.

Or, you can tackle one of the core causes of the issue: Clan DHS are too good. The Inner Sphere DHS is half again bigger than Clan models, and that space savings synergises really well with Clan weight saving technologies like Endo-steel. The net result is to give Clan 'mechs better cooling rates and higher heat caps in most of their builds. It's fueling builds like This Monstrosity, and that's not even the most meta alpha build.

So something probably needs to give, and it can't be space requirements - that's locked into a bunch of omnipods. So we're left with either cooling rate or heat capacity. And Clan builds need the option for efficient cooling. Clan energy weapons are hotter than the Inner Sphere, and that's partly to balance their superior range... and tonnage... and space... but it's also to balance Clan DHS. Heat capacity, on the other hand, makes it less efficient to poke - and that makes high-alpha builds less attractive. I mean, you can just blast people with Rocket Launchers - once. But how often do you see them in a game?

Remember that quite a few Clan Omnimechs simply do not have the pod space to mount extensively bulky weaponry, so nerfing lasers specifically while we're trying to stop the bigger, high-alpha 'mechs will hurt those 'mechs disproportionately.

Thus, nerfing heat capacity isn't a sledgehammer, it's a targeted surgical intervention to reduce the issue, then evaluate. Overall, well, we're still going to have to alter weapons balance somewhat, but we'll have to do a lot less of that if we address the heat cap first, then see where it stands. That seems to be the thought process PGI is going for, and I don't think they're wrong.

I'm still not sure if I'm quite sold on this, but as long as they are just messing with the heat cap, and not the cooling rate, the sledgehammer damage shouldn't be catastrophic.

On a related note, if the problem is supposedly boating too many different kinds of weapons, why haven't they just played with the ghost heat? Put Gauss, PPC, HAG, LG Las, AC10, AC20, and all the other apparent major high impact offenders into the same ghost heat family. Cap it at however many of those they want shot at once and then adjust that heat penalty as needed. If it isn't working, the penalty isn't high enough. This approach should have similar desired impact but will have less side impact on other chassis types that aren't being used as alpha strikers.

[Joshua McEvedy]

Frost_Byte, on 20 November 2023 - 04:08 PM, said:

Starting in December we plan on slowing time to kill. The first is probably a clan double heatsink nerf. But most of cauldron is aware of time to kill quickening to the point of becoming a problem. We just wanted to avoid radical changes to the meta until Champion Series is over.

Feels like 2015 all over again when PGI started nerfing Clan tech to try and achieve that ever so elusive game balance and to increase TTK. PGI didn't get it right then, and in fact screwed things up badly. So what makes you think that repeating that nerf history will end any differently?

[Void Angel]

Riiight. Because balance is in such a sorry state today compared to on-release Clantech...