16 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

move the cerml into the large laser ghost heat group. it has to much range to be grouped among mediums.

reason: the common blend of 2hll and 6cerml leads to a 72-point ghost heat free alpha. i think this combo is op and far far worse than the bluesniper problem. limiting the build to only four mediums knocks the alpha down to 60, which is on par with some is vomit builds. you can use medpulse for 78, but at twice the tonnage its gonna hit you in the heatsink budget as well as turn you into a bracket build. 76 with hmls, again bracket build.

consequences: now you have to worry about 6cerml+4hml blend for a 76 point alpha. this may be considered a bracket build where closer ranges are required to get the full alpha and therefore is not as dangerous. it does however create a reason to use the oft disused hml.

it also allows medium+small bracket builds to better circumvent ghost heat, however these are often sub-median range and are usually vomit brawlers (especially gargoyles and executioners). though having a few more viable brawlers is a plus in my opinion. worst i could come up with was a kitbashed direwolf with 6erml+5hsl+5ermicro that puts out an 80.5 gh-free alpha. but if you can get that dire in range to use that you deserve to wreck face.

mitigation: nerf heavy laser max ranges to 1.5x optimal. reinforcing the bracket build limitation of the 6+4 build. this could apply only to the medium, but it seems like the hll kind of steps on the toes of the clpl. this weakens the hsl, so give it a 30m optimal range buff.

most of the high alpha is shifted towards closer ranges or requires bracket builds which are anti-meta. some of the secondary and tertiary concerns can be mittigated by tweaking gh limits or moving ranges around to break synergies whenever possible.

[martian]

Killing the meta is impossible, you can only change it to something else.

[LordNothing]

martian, on 15 November 2023 - 08:17 AM, said:

Killing the meta is impossible, you can only change it to something else.

well thats kind of the point. shifting the meta inward to where you need to close in to use it.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 November 2023 - 08:38 AM.

[Battlemaster56]

I just say slaughter clan large lasers as a whole and start pushing for a new weapon group for clans, while clan large lasers stay as it we just gonna waddle around the real issue that is the clan blue lasers you can only hit cERML so much before it becomes ridiculous.

[LordNothing]

i dont really consider the erll problem to be as bad as some of the alphas that are possible with cleantech. frankly the is erll boats are better in my opinion, mostly because you can fire 3 beans instead of 2. its the 400-600 midrange where clan laser really shine.

so make sure nothing in the small-medium gh group can hit no further than 270 optimal, which is true if you exclude the erml outlier. then only the cmpl and hml have max ranges of 540, you can bring the hml to 405m via the 1.5x max range nerf, thus the hml are no better than ermeds at ranges above 350. the mpl pays for the extra range in tonnage and requires no max range nerf.

should point out buffs to vomit brawlers, especially fast clan vomit brawlers, means a world of hurt for would be snipers if you can close distance quickly and have really powerful alphas when you get there.

Edited by LordNothing, 15 November 2023 - 11:45 AM.

[Battlemaster56]

That could work I'm just bored of this mid range laser vom meta, and would like to see a shift to a different meta , and I agree with you cerll is not really a problem since it's only the dire wolf boating them and even then it's just a mild nuisance.

[MechMaster059]

LordNothing, on 15 November 2023 - 07:28 AM, said:

move the cerml into the large laser ghost heat group. it has to much range to be grouped among mediums.

Not a good idea. This would degrade the consistency of how HSL is applied and would become another little factoid new players might not become aware of for months/years into playing the game. (Woah? C-ERML are considered large laser HSL?)

LordNothing, on 15 November 2023 - 07:28 AM, said:

reason: the common blend of 2hll and 6cerml leads to a 72-point ghost heat free alpha. i think this combo is op and far far worse than the bluesniper problem. limiting the build to only four mediums knocks the alpha down to 60, which is on par with some is vomit builds. you can use medpulse for 78, but at twice the tonnage its gonna hit you in the heatsink budget as well as turn you into a bracket build. 76 with hmls, again bracket build.

The problem here is the HLL, not HSL family. The Heavy lasers aren't "Heavy", they weigh the same as their ER counterparts. The only difference for fitting is their increased slot cost. The HLL gives far too much alpha for only 4T. +50% tonnage cost to all Heavy lasers and adjust their other stats accordingly.

[Battlemaster56]

MechMaster059, on 19 November 2023 - 02:47 AM, said:

The problem here is the HLL, not HSL family. The Heavy lasers aren't "Heavy", they weigh the same as their ER counterparts. The only difference for fitting is their increased slot cost. The HLL gives far too much alpha for only 4T. +50% tonnage cost to all Heavy lasers and adjust their other stats accordingly.

I think the heavy part of heavy laser doesn't meant weight but damage it can dish out.

[MechMaster059]

Battlemaster56, on 19 November 2023 - 07:22 AM, said:

I think the heavy part of heavy laser doesn't meant weight but damage it can dish out.

I know. It's dumb and inconsistent.

Heavy Gauss, heavy PPC, heavy machine gun... Heavy lasers are the ONLY "Heavy" weapons that don't actually weigh more.

Call them "High Power" lasers or something, but don't call them "Heavy" because they're not.

[LordNothing]

MechMaster059, on 19 November 2023 - 02:47 AM, said:

Not a good idea. This would degrade the consistency of how HSL is applied and would become another little factoid new players might not become aware of for months/years into playing the game. (Woah? C-ERML are considered large laser HSL?)


The problem here is the HLL, not HSL family. The Heavy lasers aren't "Heavy", they weigh the same as their ER counterparts. The only difference for fitting is their increased slot cost. The HLL gives far too much alpha for only 4T. +50% tonnage cost to all Heavy lasers and adjust their other stats accordingly.

heavy lasers would get max range nerfs in the proposal forcing them down in effective range (somewhere between optimal and max) somewhat. the small buff to the hsl is to compensate for the lessened max range, because that's gonna hurt the small a lot more than the large or med (which need to be brought in a bit). i suppose you could alternatively just leave the hsl alone that would be fine.

big problem is no matter what you do with your blue beams, you can always add 36 damage to anything in the large laser group without penalty, and in many cases with good synergy. i suppose you could nerf erml range directly so it closer conforms to smalls and mediums than larges. but then that would hurt builds using ermls alone (might as well use heavy or pulse meds instead).

hsl is kind of a dirty hack that circumvents the convoluted gh rules in certain situations. you want to talk of npe for new players, remove the loopholes.

id still count the medium as medium for the sake of quirks. many of those are going to be range quirks putting it further into the range bracket of the blue beams, so i think this works out fine, you can still have good alphas in the upper midrange bracket but you have to either eat the gh or time your shots. the stronger synergies in the lower range bracket are going to encourage more close in play which makes the game more exciting to play.

Edited by LordNothing, 19 November 2023 - 01:34 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LordNothing, on 15 November 2023 - 07:28 AM, said:

mitigation: nerf heavy laser max ranges to 1.5x optimal. reinforcing the bracket build limitation of the 6+4 build. this could apply only to the medium, but it seems like the hll kind of steps on the toes of the clpl. this weakens the hsl, so give it a 30m optimal range buff.

Honestly I don't like this because heavy lasers haven't been in the best state for ages, the sole exception is the large and that is honestly only because the game is pushed to more damage volume currently. Prior to the dissipation buffs in late 2018, cLPLs and cERLLs were just the better option. I'd much rather see the heavy lasers redesigned even if they don't really resemble their lore counterparts because well, this isn't TT (and making them shorter range than they already are just shouldn't be part of that).

That said, if we really wanna make laser vomit less good again, nerfing external cDHS is really the best option because the dissipation normalization from 2018 benefitted laser vomit, particularly Clan laser vomit the most because those builds typically had the most external heat sinks of any builds. TBH I would love to rewind the game to before that stupid patch and press the restart button because IMO that was a good bit of power creep that really just wasn't necessary.

https://mwomercs.com...re-laser-vomit/

This thread is from before the dissipation normalization, but it captures essentially what is still true to this day, except the dissipation normalization just exacerbated the divide between the tech bases when it came to laser vomit and bumped up laser vomit alphas a new notch.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 November 2023 - 02:34 PM.

[kalashnikity]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 November 2023 - 02:29 PM, said:

Honestly I don't like this because heavy lasers haven't been in the best state for ages, the sole exception is the large and that is honestly only because the game is pushed to more damage volume currently. Prior to the dissipation buffs in late 2018, cLPLs and cERLLs were just the better option. I'd much rather see the heavy lasers redesigned even if they don't really resemble their lore counterparts because well, this isn't TT (and making them shorter range than they already are just shouldn't be part of that).

That said, if we really wanna make laser vomit less good again, nerfing external cDHS is really the best option because the dissipation normalization from 2018 benefitted laser vomit, particularly Clan laser vomit the most because those builds typically had the most external heat sinks of any builds. TBH I would love to rewind the game to before that stupid patch and press the restart button because IMO that was a good bit of power creep that really just wasn't necessary.

https://mwomercs.com...re-laser-vomit/

This thread is from before the dissipation normalization, but it captures essentially what is still true to this day, except the dissipation normalization just exacerbated the divide between the tech bases when it came to laser vomit and bumped up laser vomit alphas a new notch.

YOu realize nerfing cDHS also nerfs every other clan weapon.

why not just directly nerf the "problem weapons", add a bit of heat to clan large lasers, and call it a day?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

kalashnikity, on 19 November 2023 - 03:13 PM, said:

YOu realize nerfing cDHS also nerfs every other clan weapon.

why not just directly nerf the "problem weapons", add a bit of heat to clan large lasers, and call it a day?

Notice I only mentioned external DHS, dakka typically doesn't stack much extra, not like energy boats. That's the difference here. It also nerfs Clan heavies/assaults in relation to their smaller counterparts because, well they just don't mount as many DHS as the heavier mechs.

Gauss/Laser vomit was strong before 2018, and it just got a significant boost afterwards.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 November 2023 - 04:06 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

kalashnikity, on 19 November 2023 - 03:13 PM, said:

why not just directly nerf the "problem weapons", add a bit of heat to clan large lasers, and call it a day?

Also forgot to mention, the reason you don't just nerf lasers is because Clan lasers on lights/mediums are much less problematic than the heavies and assaults pushing alphas sky high. Same is true for IS somewhat.

The problem you are talking about is trading a blanket nerf for another without figuring it out what exactly the problem is.

[Gas Guzzler]

I guess I'm still on an island but I haven't felt like laser vomit was overbearing for a while compared to other stuff. I'm a little concerned about what this is going to do to some of the middle of the road Clan assaults that are shoehorned into slow laser vomit (Supernova) but we'll see.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 November 2023 - 04:20 PM, said:

I'm a little concerned about what this is going to do to some of the middle of the road Clan assaults that are shoehorned into slow laser vomit (Supernova) but we'll see.

I mean non-Clan XL engines being a more competitive option would probably help with the Supernova but without engineering support I don't know if the fix is possible with just XML edits

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 20 November 2023 - 02:11 PM, said:

Also forgot to mention, the reason you don't just nerf lasers is because Clan lasers on lights/mediums are much less problematic than the heavies and assaults pushing alphas sky high. Same is true for IS somewhat.

The problem you are talking about is trading a blanket nerf for another without figuring it out what exactly the problem is.

those lighter mechs will be helped if the erml is in a higher group. so then you can combine it with smalls. this would be really useful on mechs like the viper or ice ferret in addition to gargles and exe.