23 replies to this topic

[Papaspud]

the hiding is almost complete- if we can just get those alphas up a little higher= nobody will bother to peek, hide warrior online! Such fun.

[Besh]

Yeah . For many people, the game they play = "Standing around online", no matter what ! Games galore get thrown away because of this, people simply too timid to move .

Edited by Besh, 02 January 2024 - 10:29 AM.

[torsie]

I fully support this idea, I hate when people shoot at me !

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Besh, on 02 January 2024 - 10:28 AM, said:

Yeah . For many people, the game they play = "Standing around online", no matter what ! Games galore get thrown away because of this, people simply too timid to move .

This was legit a thing back during the Splat era of closed beta. It has nothing to do with high alphas, people are just overly cautious and are afraid to even take scratch damage. It takes a minute to realize that armor is a resource and sometimes you have to use it. This is the same reason why Stealth Thanatos or Lt Gauss Fafnirs that used to be more common are often a waste of tonnage. So much time spent not really doing much damage and not sharing armor.

Some players just don't understand that if you spend your time running away into a corner you've already lost, you have to contest control over the map or you are going to lose, and if it means you lost the rock, paper, scissors game of bringing a brawler to alpine or something goofy, it's better to try than to just hide as your teammates die and then you die with barely any damage anyway once you get overrun.

Edited by Quicksilver Aberration, 02 January 2024 - 01:10 PM.

[ThreeStooges]

163 alpha on a locust is way to small. I mean we can go up to 200 and make it an even number?

[Saved By The Bell]

The game is about positioning and reaction to changing situation (need to look both maps).

[Besh]

Saved By The Bell, on 02 January 2024 - 08:38 PM, said:

The game is about positioning and reaction to changing situation (need to look both maps).

Yeah .

Just how to make the masses of people who think moving is for Lights and prefer playing "Standing around online" understand that ?

Edited by Besh, 03 January 2024 - 04:37 AM.

[Captain Caveman DE]

to be frank:

it's not about the alphas. people hide and do nothing because people like to hide and do nothing.
been that way as long as I've played and and probably before that.

you could stand atop a hill with a single-small-laser-only-atlas and the other 23 just stay low and run in circles
or stay low and don't move at all, only to later cry-out about "getting rushed" by a 1legged-annihilator or sth.

and then there are those games where you stand atop a hill with a single-small-laser-only-atlas and only your 11teammates
stand low and do nothing - while the enemy team has 1-5 competent players and just focus you to death in a
few seconds..


however, mostly it's because people in this game -in general- are very passive and/or busy running around in circles
trying to NOT-get-shot instead of trying to shoot somebody.
"big alphas" is just the excuse that's most popular these days to do so and not look like a ****
-which, btw, always fails ;-)

Edited by Captain Caveman DE, 03 January 2024 - 05:06 AM.

[Besh]

Captain Caveman DE, on 03 January 2024 - 05:04 AM, said:

to be frank:

it's not about the alphas. people hide and do nothing because people like to hide and do nothing.
been that way as long as I've played and and probably before that.

you could stand atop a hill with a single-small-laser-only-atlas and the other 23 just stay low and run in circles
or stay low and don't move at all, only to later cry-out about "getting rushed" by a 1legged-annihilator or sth.

and then there are those games where you stand atop a hill with a single-small-laser-only-atlas and only your 11teammates
stand low and do nothing - while the enemy team has 1-5 competent players and just focus you to death in a
few seconds..


however, mostly it's because people in this game -in general- are very passive and/or busy running around in circles
trying to NOT-get-shot instead of trying to shoot somebody.
"big alphas" is just the excuse that's most popular these days to do so and not look like a ****
-which, btw, always fails ;-)

Tbf, a 100+ pts Alpha is scary . But it does not explain why people think the best way to deal with it is to hide and run from it . Most conufsing is when my Team precisely knows OpFor Positions due to UAVs and spotting, still refuses to move to shoot, watches half the Team get overrun and killed and then start running away when its their time .

Edited by Besh, 03 January 2024 - 06:17 AM.

[LordNothing]

Quicksilver Aberration, on 02 January 2024 - 01:07 PM, said:

This was legit a thing back during the Splat era of closed beta. It has nothing to do with high alphas, people are just overly cautious and are afraid to even take scratch damage. It takes a minute to realize that armor is a resource and sometimes you have to use it. This is the same reason why Stealth Thanatos or Lt Gauss Fafnirs that used to be more common are often a waste of tonnage. So much time spent not really doing much damage and not sharing armor.

Some players just don't understand that if you spend your time running away into a corner you've already lost, you have to contest control over the map or you are going to lose, and if it means you lost the rock, paper, scissors game of bringing a brawler to alpine or something goofy, it's better to try than to just hide as your teammates die and then you die with barely any damage anyway once you get overrun.

ive always preferred the shock and awe approach. but getting 12 mechwarriors to go balls to the wall guns blazing and heat bars soaked is damn near impossible. i remember in fp when a team can take 3 lances of flimsy xl engine assaults and just go through the enemy like paper. really eats those "let them come" types alive because they usually have a couple of fatalities before they know what's going on and by then its too late. the snowball has too much momentum.

mechs have legs, use them.

Edited by LordNothing, 03 January 2024 - 09:16 AM.

[torsie]

[Word Salad Alert]

I think one of the problems, or at least thats what it looks like from my eyes, is that you can get exploded really fast, if you are in a fight more than 1 against 2 you are going to lose almost every time, especially if you cant quickly hide back into cover. And because you have only one life in every map, its really dangerous to die, so its better just to hide , especially since everyone is going to have milion kilometers long guns so you have to hide AND be milion kilometers away from the action.

1. From the few games that I tried playing with my friends, one reminds me little bit of this situation. It was game with two teams, 5 players on both sides, one is attacking and one is defending.
You could die super fast and super easy in this game and if you died you had to wait for your team to win or lose and all you could do was maybe watch the other team on cameras and tell your team if someone is coming. This I think made situation where the defending team would just sit on one place and every person would aim at one door, window, wall, stairs or something and just wait for the enemy team to walk into you.
This would be extremely boring and frustrating to me , because, yes, the defending team is supposed to defend, but all they would do is sitting on one place for 2 minutes and not move. Meanwhile the attacking team had to find the place, bring all kinds of things with them to get inside (imagine you have to bring missiles mech or flamers mech to every map, even if its not fun to play it, but without it you almost always lose) and then deal with 5 enemy players aiming at that 1 door you are all trying to come through.

This problem in this game is a bit similar, why would I risk dying, when I can just sit back and not die instead .


2. One other game I played with friends had these super big huge giant maps, something like those awful snow maps we have here, but actually fun to play instead ! You would play with, I think 20 or 30 other players, ON BOTH SIDES !!! AND you would get more lives so getting shot wasnt really a problem.
One of the game modes was like a conquest and it was same like here, 5 points, 2 for each team and 1 in the middle where all the big fights happened and it would just go on and on for 20 minutes.
So my friends would go somewhere, 3 of them and me following behind trying to not get in the way . Sometimes we would take a tank or a car with some gun on it, we would then go around the map for half a day, capture those enemy points behind them and then attack the main big blob in the central point.
And IT. WAS. CRAZY! Those 3 people appearing without anyone noticing would cause so much chaos, it was fun watching my friends just take on the whole enemy team alone, 3 people against 30 and killing dozens and dozens of them and you would instantly see the whole rest of your team suddenly move in, because noone was shooting at them because everyone was looking behind them. So much fun !

Problem is, you cant do it in this game because its too small, or the scale is too big? Wait, no, uhmmm. Yes, you are too BIG and the scale of everything around you is too SMALL, thats it !

You cant really sneak 4 super big giant robots through a map where buildings are around your knees to attack, because its so easy to notice you, you will get instantly shot by the whole enemy team if you are not in the cover, and since its super easy to die and there are no more lives, you just go boom and game is over.


SHORT VERSION:
Maybe if you could risk a little bit more, people wouldnt be afraid to risk a little bit more and would follow your heroic charge into the enemy team, but since moving out of cover is pretty much the biggest mistake you can make in this game (right after putting 12 lasers on your mech and shooting them at once ) people really have no other option but to stay behind cover.
And this leads to other issues like everyone using the same billion kilometers long guns just to stay in cover more effectively.

Edited by torsie, 03 January 2024 - 09:26 AM.

[East Indy]

It's a combination of things. In any single-life-spectate-after game, players will be cautious.

This game still struggles with pulling a lot of the wrong things from tabletop. In BT, the chance of you hitting a center torso with two sequential shots is 3.7%. Multiple weapons drop it even lower. In MWO, almost everything converges and the only limits are from Heat Scale...and 'Mechs still offer 15ish discrete body-part targets, the loss of any which could cripple, and sit a player out.

I'm not totally up to speed on Event Queue but if I understand correctly it'd be a great place to test theories about extremely high TTK experiences that place less emphasis on obsessive hitscan repetition -- or one-shots -- and more on running around and shooting robots.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

East Indy, on 03 January 2024 - 10:27 AM, said:

I'm not totally up to speed on Event Queue but if I understand correctly it'd be a great place to test theories about extremely high TTK experiences that place less emphasis on obsessive hitscan repetition -- or one-shots -- and more on running around and shooting robots.

We've seen this born out with the energy draw PTS already, it just pushes the game towards whoever has the best DPS wins. The problem with not allowing concentration of fire means that you slowly turn the game to be purely about damage volume, not that aim isn't rewarded but typically the less difference impactful alphas are, the less bite and power they have.



Unrelated note: It's also worth noting that the damage readout does play into this a bit because some players see themselves take 1% of ERLL damage and hide out of fear not realizing they are taking 0.01 points of damage from those ERLL because they are almost at complete falloff range. It's also why I sort of dislike the range quirks/skills because it is much harder to know the boundaries you can play around with those weapons granted having the falloff makes that a little less impactful than it did back in the MW4 days.

[LordNothing]

East Indy, on 03 January 2024 - 10:27 AM, said:

It's a combination of things. In any single-life-spectate-after game, players will be cautious.

This game still struggles with pulling a lot of the wrong things from tabletop. In BT, the chance of you hitting a center torso with two sequential shots is 3.7%. Multiple weapons drop it even lower. In MWO, almost everything converges and the only limits are from Heat Scale...and 'Mechs still offer 15ish discrete body-part targets, the loss of any which could cripple, and sit a player out.

I'm not totally up to speed on Event Queue but if I understand correctly it'd be a great place to test theories about extremely high TTK experiences that place less emphasis on obsessive hitscan repetition -- or one-shots -- and more on running around and shooting robots.

eq is definitely a good place to test stuff. seems you can push anything thats a quirk as a game rule. so running an event with a huge negaquirk on certain weapons is a good way to test scenarios fast. you can cover a wide array of scenarios in a very short time. its also a reason to log in.

[Besh]

East Indy, on 03 January 2024 - 10:27 AM, said:

It's a combination of things. In any single-life-spectate-after game, players will be cautious.

This game still struggles with pulling a lot of the wrong things from tabletop. In BT, the chance of you hitting a center torso with two sequential shots is 3.7%. Multiple weapons drop it even lower. In MWO, almost everything converges and the only limits are from Heat Scale...and 'Mechs still offer 15ish discrete body-part targets, the loss of any which could cripple, and sit a player out.

I'm not totally up to speed on Event Queue but if I understand correctly it'd be a great place to test theories about extremely high TTK experiences that place less emphasis on obsessive hitscan repetition -- or one-shots -- and more on running around and shooting robots.

Is just too common by now to not be aware of basic MW:O tactics as shown in

https://mwomercs.com...ics-101-comics/
( identical thread exists on Steam ) .

Quite a few people who think "Ima not risk my Armor/Mech" when the Situation invites and requires them to do so for Teammates to live, Team getting upper hand and ultimately win learn quickly afterwards that
Timidity is not a tactic ( https://mwomercs.com...s-not-a-tactic/ .

What can be done to put more of the "tactical teambased shooter" back into MW:O, already at not-so-experienced skilllevels ?

Edited by Besh, 03 January 2024 - 12:49 PM.

[MrTBSC]

Papaspud, on 02 January 2024 - 09:13 AM, said:

the hiding is almost complete- if we can just get those alphas up a little higher= nobody will bother to peek, hide warrior online! Such fun.

MRM 120 + quad machinegun fafnir player here ... and i´m willing to get in ... but every time i tell people that they say yeah let´s go ... but then are not going ... :/

[Gasboy]

Papaspud, on 02 January 2024 - 09:13 AM, said:

the hiding is almost complete- if we can just get those alphas up a little higher= nobody will bother to peek, hide warrior online! Such fun.

Awww, tired of trying to get your 32KPH assault across the map to hit people with your sword? Or you really wish people would stay out of cover long enough for your 140LRMs to get there?

[Abisha]

problem is it's to easy to hit mechs

i got so many times a 2% damage by impossible shots
the whole hitbox need rework


because you basic fire a cannon of navarone
https://www.warhisto...uss-741x557.jpg

it do not meant it's pine point precise shot each shot the bigger the caliber the less accurate the shot.

even a laser should not be accurate we not talking about a few Joules laser here
we talking about 100.000 KWH lasers here that cut metal in a few seconds

the feedback on those lasers would be likely even higher then a caliber cannon.

so more shaking less accurate shots would improve the game

my advies,

start with Heavy gauss shake add it to the AC2 and make the shake more and more powerful AC5 1.5% more shake AC10 should be 2,5% more shake, AC20 should have like 10% more shake

Laser S should shake around 0.5% of shake, LM 0,75% more shake, LL 1,25% shake.
SPL 0,75% shake, MPL 1,15% shake LPL should shake 1,75% shake

the aim should also shake from center like it feels like a real feedback.

Challenger 2 120mm cannon (compareable 2 AC2)
https://youtu.be/xbQPtyDQq1I
M1 Abrams 120mm cannon (compareable 2 AC2)
https://youtu.be/rLG2R6BhncU

Edited by Abisha, 08 January 2024 - 10:40 AM.

[Ihlrath]

I've said it before and I'll say it again....

Arrow IV baby.

Why one shot one mech when you can one shot a lance?

[pbiggz]

Abisha, on 08 January 2024 - 10:17 AM, said:

problem is it's to easy to hit mechs

No it's not. If you feel you are being hit too easily, then your problem (yours personally, not the problem) is that you don't understand how positioning works, and you are far to eager to make that everyone else's fault, rather than take a moment to think about it and understand.

Abisha, on 08 January 2024 - 10:17 AM, said:

i got so many times a 2% damage by impossible shots
the whole hitbox need rework

This is a complex multiplayer networked game and your own latency can have as big an impact as anything. Nobody can say hit reg is perfect, but frankly, its pretty good. I've been around long enough to remember when 80kph medium mech skirmishers were basically unkillable because hit registration was so bad. They were fun mechs to pilot, but they deserved to die on the altar of hit registration, and die they did.

Abisha, on 08 January 2024 - 10:17 AM, said:

because you basic fire a cannon of navarone
https://www.warhisto...uss-741x557.jpg

it do not meant it's pine point precise shot each shot the bigger the caliber the less accurate the shot.

Saying this as a game designer, and from the perspective of a game designer; if you give players a reticle, teach them to shoot, then have the shot go somewhere they aren't aiming, it feels *extremely bad*, like, unplayably bad. The tactile sensation and the visual feedback of having your shot just fly off into the ether is game breakingly bad, so just forcing people to have bad aim because you presumably don't know how to position is not a solution, and yes, I can tell that this is exactly what you're agitating for; people hit you personally too consistently so you want good aim to be nerfed.

As an aside, the picture you have posted is clearly a picture of artillery; a particular weapon, fired in a very particular way, using a very particular munition. Its also a kind of weapon that essentially doesn't exist in battletech (the long tom is the only artillery weapon really in the tabletop game) and certainly doesnt exist in MWO. Its kind of a useless example here.

Abisha, on 08 January 2024 - 10:17 AM, said:

even a laser should not be accurate we not talking about a few Joules laser here
we talking about 100.000 KWH lasers here that cut metal in a few seconds

the feedback on those lasers would be likely even higher then a caliber cannon.

so more shaking less accurate shots would improve the game

Im not sure you have even a faint grasp of physics here. Photon pressure does exist, but it is not a force that is remotely comparable to the forces a conventional gun or cannon would produce. The most important thing a high powered laser has to deal with is heat changing the shape of the lenses and thus making the beam less focused, and the inverse square law, which models how lasers lose energy with distance due to diffraction. There is no justification for making lasers shake. None.

Abisha, on 08 January 2024 - 10:17 AM, said:

my advies,

start with Heavy gauss shake add it to the AC2 and make the shake more and more powerful AC5 1.5% more shake AC10 should be 2,5% more shake, AC20 should have like 10% more shake

Laser S should shake around 0.5% of shake, LM 0,75% more shake, LL 1,25% shake.
SPL 0,75% shake, MPL 1,15% shake LPL should shake 1,75% shake

the aim should also shake from center like it feels like a real feedback.

One of the most dangerous things a game designer can do is be arbitrary. Just pulling numbers out of your *** and tacking them to a live game is a recipe for disaster, and I know you made these numbers up.

On top of that, this is pretty obviously a "nerf the weapons i dont like" list. You're advocating for blanket accuracy penalties for dakka and for lasers.

Why does it always turn into a "nerf what I dont like and buff what I like" post? Every time!

Abisha, on 08 January 2024 - 10:17 AM, said:

Challenger 2 120mm cannon (compareable 2 AC2)
https://youtu.be/xbQPtyDQq1I
M1 Abrams 120mm cannon (compareable 2 AC2)
https://youtu.be/rLG2R6BhncU

As a final aside, first, 120mm cannons are not small weapons. Additionally, the ballistic model in MWO and battletech is extremely gamer-logic. Larger caliber weapons do not have shorter ranges, they have longer ranges. The relationship between range and damage in battletech is a game balance decision, not one meant to reinforce good military science fiction. It doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. By that token, looking to the real world for weapon behaviour is at best, of very limited value. Unless you're willing to rip out and completely remake autocannons from the ground up, completely ignoring BT canon and TT rules, then there isn't anything valuable there for us.

Edited by pbiggz, 10 January 2024 - 07:24 AM.