172 replies to this topic

[Viltor]

Void Angel, on 30 January 2024 - 01:25 PM, said:

Self-defense is not a "harangue," and - as I've already pointed out - nobody but like one guy on the first page has made that claim. Of course the LRM nerf is a nerf. Duh. The reasoning behind it can be extrapolated from the facts, though, and not all opinions are equal. People are of the opinion that the earth is flat, too - either support your opinions with facts or shut up already. Trying to tone-shame me for slapping your bad reasoning down is just an admission of defeat with extra steps - maybe try not calling people "reddit radlib socialist wannabe's" or coining the phrase "words vocabulary" before you try smearing someone else's "tone," my dude.

Too bad your ignore all those facts, and build your argument on your personal vibes, feelings and anecdotal evidence.
LRM nerf was unnecessary.

[Viltor]

Magic Pain Glove, on 01 February 2024 - 06:14 AM, said:

It seems like people are blind to some of the changes that happened over the course of the past year but I remind folks of things that directly benefited LRMS :

• Artemis ( kept all of its benefits vs standard launchers giving people who were already using it previously all the benefits of the below mentioned changes without it loosing anything in return)
  
• Missile health ( got increased ) , especially on smaller launchers making them more useful and resistant to AMS .
  
• Radar Depravation ( got nerfed twice , once to prevent small targets interrupting locks which was the initial 1% decrease for each node and 2nd time now to increase overall target lock time ) giving you almost 1 second of additional lock on time on target.
  
• ASP is now a thing in the game and it stacks with BAP , those who understand how sensor range works will know why this is a massive LRM boost. Provides a range boost for TAG to match it with max LRM range.
  
• BAP on the IS side got reduced in tonnage to 1 ton.
  
• LRM 5 is now using its own heat penalty group, unlinked from other LRMs . Which gives mechs with extra hardpoints ability to combine them and avoid ghost heat entirely.
  
• ECM Bubble size reduction , meaning less enemies will be under ECM Umbrellas on average
  
• ECM Skill tree node reduction ( enhanced ECM nodes )

There are discussions on making TAG less visible as well among other things .I would even argue that arc changes reducing flight time to target were a buff (even if by a little bit , especially for direct fire where you maintain direct line of sight on your target ) but that may be changed or reverted so there is that. I cant say I am the biggest fan of Standard LRM Velocity reduction but during the past year a lot was done to make them more consistent and it was normal that they were hit a bit as well since all those systems stack on top of one another and interact with each other . Artemis didn't even receive a penalty so if you were using it before you got nothing but buffs to your builds.

1. Almost no one was using Artemis. And even if so, those who were using it still got hit by height reduction nerf. Not a buff.

2. At the same that missile health got buffed, AMS got buffed even more. Not a buff.

3. 1% decrease gave us 0.1 second more seconds until we lose target out of sight. Right now with Target Decay you can "see" target for 1.1 second after your direct vision on it, without TD you get 0.4 second of vision. To be able to hit target after it moves out of sight, your target has to be 300 meters away from you. Radar Derp still counters LRM at longer ranges. That's a slight buff.

4. ASP is useful, yes. But it weights 1.5 ton and 1 slot. How 20% TAG range increase is a massive boost? Since it requires space and weight, I might just as well equip more ammo or put more tubes, not a buff.

5. BAP doesn't give any bonuses to LRM boat. And "targeting gain time boost" doesn't affect lock speed, only "target info" gathering sped. Not a buff.

6. There's probably only couple of mechs with many missile slots that you utilize this build, doesn't affect 99% of them Lurm boats. Not a buff.

7. ECM nerf will provide more stable locks on your targets. Yes, this is a buff.


As I said - almost no one was using Artemis before this nerf. So most players Lurm boating got nerfed.
Distance decrease is 2%, insignificant boost, compared to overall nerfs.
By your logic, if I equip 5.5 tons and 5 slots more modules, the game will be the same for me as before. But where will I get that space? I will have to reduce amount of launch tubes on my mech, that is less painful than downgrading engine or removing ammo. And still my mech won't be as good as it was before the nerf.

Edited by Viltor, 02 February 2024 - 11:10 PM.

[Viltor]

Void Angel, on 01 February 2024 - 12:18 PM, said:

Volley height will make missiles land faster, but not taking leg damage when literally hugging a rock will make my Stone Rhino happier - assuming it doesn't still happen... Haven't had the situation recur yet. =]

2% faster. That's 0.075 seconds on average. Literally 75 ping reduction of arriving time. Barely noticeable.

[Viltor]

Far Reach, on 02 February 2024 - 01:12 PM, said:

And yet, besides the contrarians running them to spite you, fewer people than EVER play LRM's in MWO now.

Your write-up and reality are opposite. Reconcile.

They try to prove that minor buffs and changes outweigh huge nerfs. It's like saying - you lost both of your legs, but hey, you can now buy motorized wheel chair, and those are faster than human, you can move faster than before now without tiring, so it's a buff.

[Magic Pain Glove]

Viltor it seems like you are not aware of what sensor range does for lock ons . Self Proclaimed LRM experts yet they dont understand how sensor range is used to improve and aid you when it comes to using LRMs. That said its not like I can entirely blame your cluelessness because the whole system is a bit convoluted and not very well explained in game.

The reason why sensor range stacking is of great benefit to any LRM boat . Sensor range help you detect mechs that are further away and decreases your lock on speed . I find it extremely funny if it happens that you were ignoring this part entirely. Target info is a separate mechanic which decreases the time required for paperdoll to show up . The fact that you can stack both of those to improve it is quite a significant boost and I truly hope you were bringing BAP on your LRM mechs not just for the sake of countering ECM mechs . Which even if it was the only thing it did would be nice and a buff since it did go down in weight.

Regarding missile health and AMS once again , I cant recall when "AMS" got buffed it happen quite a long time ago, mostly targeted at laser AMS and the missile health buff happened after it so no . It was a buff to missile health like I said previously especially smaller launchers. Feel free to link to those AMS buffs and show the date.

You are also wrong regarding radar depravation . It was not reduced by 1% only that was the initial nerf , grand total it was reduced by 4% per node (with each node granting you 16% now ) . Meaning vs the previous 100% radar derp now it maxes out at 80% . When you calculate that it does give you almost 1 second of additional lock on time . And even more so for stuff thats not maxing the radar depr. nodes in the skill tree.

"There's probably only couple of mechs with many missile slots that you utilize this build, doesn't affect 99% of them Lurm boats."

Any mech that wants to increase its alpha potential and has free missile hardpoints left to use can utilize it . You are triggering ghost heat with 3 LRM 20s are you sure there are no mechs in game that dont have more than 2 missile hardpoints where adding additional launchers to increase your alpha ( vs chainfiring ) wouldn't benefit your on top of LRM5 missile health being greater.

Edited by Magic Pain Glove, 03 February 2024 - 06:51 PM.

[pattonesque]

Far Reach, on 02 February 2024 - 01:12 PM, said:

And yet, besides the contrarians running them to spite you, fewer people than EVER play LRM's in MWO now.

Your write-up and reality are opposite. Reconcile.

oh dang, do we have stats for this?

[Magic Pain Glove]

We dont . Weapon stats usage is not being tracked properly you can even check that on your own profile. I wish we had it but its not the case . That doesent prevent people from making such claims funnily enough .

[pattonesque]

Magic Pain Glove, on 03 February 2024 - 08:05 PM, said:

We dont . Weapon stats usage is not being tracked properly you can even check that on your own profile. I wish we had it but its not the case . That doesent prevent people from making such claims funnily enough .

oh wow, and he seemed so certain! It's almost like he's stating what he wants to be true rather than what actually is true

[Far Reach]

pattonesque, on 03 February 2024 - 08:09 PM, said:

oh wow, and he seemed so certain! It's almost like he's stating what he wants to be true rather than what actually is true

"aLmOsT lIkE hE's PlAyEd ThE gAmE bEfOrE?!"

[pattonesque]

Far Reach, on 04 February 2024 - 05:41 AM, said:

"aLmOsT lIkE hE's PlAyEd ThE gAmE bEfOrE?!"

oh that was the evidence I was looking for. thanks man

[Void Angel]

Viltor, on 02 February 2024 - 10:25 PM, said:

You said: "Supernova did 1200 damage was a combination of factors, many of which are not dependent on the LRM pilot at all"
"Many of which", many means a lot. So you said A LOT of factors are not dependent on Lurmers skills. Not "some", but "a lot". As if rockets hitting target is pure luck, and not ability to pick your targets and position yourself on the map.

Rocket can be dodged, because you get prior warning of "incoming fire" and have 2-5 seconds to find cover. Sniper damage is instant and cannot be dodged.

"LRMs are extremely easy to aim - you literally just point and click." (c) Void Angel
Quotes of the "great". I'm gonna print, frame it and hang on my wall.

... When you have to re-write someone's post to get the argument you'd like to counter, you've lost your moral integrity as well as the argument.

pattonesque, on 04 February 2024 - 07:42 AM, said:

oh that was the evidence I was looking for. thanks man

That's all the evidence we're going to get, I'm afraid; ex cathedra pronouncements of truth backed by sophistry and name-calling. I'm about to just default to "don't feed the troll."

[Viltor]

Magic Pain Glove, on 03 February 2024 - 09:35 AM, said:

Viltor it seems like you are not aware of what sensor range does for lock ons . Self Proclaimed LRM experts yet they dont understand how sensor range is used to improve and aid you when it comes to using LRMs. That said its not like I can entirely blame your cluelessness because the whole system is a bit convoluted and not very well explained in game.

The reason why sensor range stacking is of great benefit to any LRM boat . Sensor range help you detect mechs that are further away and decreases your lock on speed . I find it extremely funny if it happens that you were ignoring this part entirely. Target info is a separate mechanic which decreases the time required for paperdoll to show up . The fact that you can stack both of those to improve it is quite a significant boost and I truly hope you were bringing BAP on your LRM mechs not just for the sake of countering ECM mechs . Which even if it was the only thing it did would be nice and a buff since it did go down in weight.

Regarding missile health and AMS once again , I cant recall when "AMS" got buffed it happen quite a long time ago, mostly targeted at laser AMS and the missile health buff happened after it so no . It was a buff to missile health like I said previously especially smaller launchers. Feel free to link to those AMS buffs and show the date.

You are also wrong regarding radar depravation . It was not reduced by 1% only that was the initial nerf , grand total it was reduced by 4% per node (with each node granting you 16% now ) . Meaning vs the previous 100% radar derp now it maxes out at 80% . When you calculate that it does give you almost 1 second of additional lock on time . And even more so for stuff thats not maxing the radar depr. nodes in the skill tree.

"There's probably only couple of mechs with many missile slots that you utilize this build, doesn't affect 99% of them Lurm boats."

Any mech that wants to increase its alpha potential and has free missile hardpoints left to use can utilize it . You are triggering ghost heat with 3 LRM 20s are you sure there are no mechs in game that dont have more than 2 missile hardpoints where adding additional launchers to increase your alpha ( vs chainfiring ) wouldn't benefit your on top of LRM5 missile health being greater.

Indeed, I googled and found that in 2019 they changed lock-on system. Now indirect locks are affected by sensor range. I tested it in game and couldn't see any "significant boost". If someone have spare time, they could test this by recording video's of mech with max and stock sensor ranges for comparison. Maybe there is a difference, but it's not that big.

I'm not that stupid, my final calculations consider total percentage of Radar Derp, not a single node.

Without Target Decay you lose out of sight target after 2 seconds. 2 second decreased by 80% is 0.4 seconds. Pre-patch it was 0.08 seconds. Not even close to "1 addition seconds". With TD it's better, but it's not very common skill people use.

As I said, it's a niche build. Also having LRM20 and LRM5 together will desync your volleys, since they have different cooldown.

Edited by Viltor, 18 February 2024 - 09:33 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

I'm sorry, if you build a lock-on weapon build and choose not to use the Target Decay skills, you choose to lose in the mechlab.