20 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

It is extremely confusing for new and even existing players when they put on a weapon and look at the firepower stat or the heat mgt stat and think they're doing 120 damage with 4xRAC2 in an alpha




A machine gun shouldn't say it does as much damage as a medium laser

This is extremely confusing for people and it is why you often see a single machine gun on so many mechs

Edited by Xetelian, 23 January 2024 - 08:04 AM.

[Willie Sauerland]

Machine guns should not be in the game.
They are an anti-infantry weapon.
There is no infantry in this game.

But I agree the numbers are confusing.
Or flat out wrong in some cases.

[Curccu]

Willie Sauerland, on 23 January 2024 - 08:15 AM, said:

Machine guns should not be in the game.
They are an anti-infantry weapon.
There is no infantry in this game.

So.... 1001230103124th time in these forums this claim pops up.

I'm 99,9999999% sure that:
Original BT had machineguns...
Original BT did NOT have infantry.

Der Geisterbaer or someone else who loves this topic can continue this discussion if what I said above isn't enough.

[Willie Sauerland]

Curccu, on 23 January 2024 - 10:39 AM, said:

So.... 1001230103124th time in these forums this claim pops up.

I'm 99,9999999% sure that:
Original BT had machineguns...
Original BT did NOT have infantry.

Der Geisterbaer or someone else who loves this topic can continue this discussion if what I said above isn't enough.

The original BT was based on FASA Battledroids.
Battledroids had infantry tanks and jeeps as well as construction and infantry rules.
The first BT box set (which was the second edition) kept everything but the infantry rules.
As such, machine guns were still considered an anti-infantry weapon even in the OG BT rules.
Infantry was added back to the original BT with the Citytech box set (a year or so later I think?).

So the argument that infantry was not in the OG BT fails quite admirably.

[Curccu]

Willie Sauerland, on 23 January 2024 - 01:26 PM, said:

The first BT box set (which was the second edition) kept everything but the infantry rules.
As such, machine guns were still considered an anti-infantry weapon even in the OG BT rules.
Infantry was added back to the original BT with the Citytech box set (a year or so later I think?).

So the argument that infantry was not in the OG BT fails quite admirably.

So original BT didn't have infantry?

[Willie Sauerland]

Curccu, on 23 January 2024 - 01:48 PM, said:

So original BT didn't have infantry?

Original BT was Battledroids.
It had infantry.
The Battletech box set was the second edition of Battledroids - renamed due to a lawsuit.
Those rules got split over two different box sets.
The infantry rules were in the Citytech box set.

So yes.
OG BT had infantry.
Clearer?



Edit to add:
The original rule book in the Battletech box set states:

Quote

Some 'Mechs are also equipped with rapid-fire autocannons or machine guns for use against infantry, aircraft...

Again, infantry existed...

Edited by Willie Sauerland, 23 January 2024 - 04:12 PM.

[Heavy Money]

Xetelian, on 23 January 2024 - 08:04 AM, said:

It is extremely confusing for new and even existing players when they put on a weapon and look at the firepower stat or the heat mgt stat and think they're doing 120 damage with 4xRAC2 in an alpha




A machine gun shouldn't say it does as much damage as a medium laser

This is extremely confusing for people and it is why you often see a single machine gun on so many mechs

Just use MechDB.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

Xetelian, on 23 January 2024 - 08:04 AM, said:

... and think they're doing 120 damage with 4xRAC2 in an alpha

People who think that don't even understand what an alpha is. But yes, the Firepower stat is very misleading.

[sneed IIC]

Guys I think I found an even more annoying way to post on the forums.

Check this out.

It's really annoying to read

[Heavy Money]

primoz, on 24 January 2024 - 12:58 AM, said:

Guys I think I found an even more annoying way to post on the forums.

Check this out.

It's really annoying to read

Now put it in comic sans

[Curccu]

primoz, on 24 January 2024 - 12:58 AM, said:

Guys I think I found an even more annoying way to post on the forums.

Check this out.

It's really annoying to read

I think

I

win.

https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__6527103

Edited by Curccu, 24 January 2024 - 01:57 AM.

[Ekson Valdez]

Very cute. Now back to the actual topic, please.

[pbiggz]

This is one of the few games where you can lose before you even get to the field and the mechlab not being particularly readable doesn't do new people (or vets) any favours. Given I don't play often I have to consult other resources to know what's in and those resources are outside the game itself, which should not be necessary.


I doubt this will get dev time though.

[Ken Harkin]

Heavy Money, on 23 January 2024 - 07:27 PM, said:

Just use MechDB.

The issue is a new player in game cannot tell what does what because the presented information is wrong. Saying that new player should go to the forums to learn about MechDB then go to MechDB to find out what should be clearly identified in game makes the point of the OP.

[Der Geisterbaer]

~sigh~ I had hoped that Curccu's comment would be enough, but alas here we go (again).

Willie Sauerland, on 23 January 2024 - 01:26 PM, said:

The original BT was based on FASA Battledroids.

Indeed

Willie Sauerland, on 23 January 2024 - 01:26 PM, said:

Battledroids had infantry tanks and jeeps as well as construction and infantry rules.

Indeed, infantry and certain vehicles were part of the "Expert Battledroids" section. However, none of those were included in the "basic" or "advanced" rule sets.

• Machine Guns were part of the basic and advanced rule sets where no infantry was included and dealt the default 2 points of damage against Mechs - just like a singular SRM and and (later) AC/2 (once those were introduced, because originally there were only AC/5s) and Battledroids included Mechs that had Machine Guns as part of their armament.
  
• Even in later editions infantry and vehicles aren't necessarily part of the basic rule set but Machine Guns are still part of the weapon arsenal
  
• Under the expert rule set of Battledroids all weapon systems could fire at infantry and it took exactly 1 point of damage to kill an infantry token without any additional provisions concerning Machine Guns, which means that Machine Guns were just as "anti-infantry" as any other weapon at that time.

-> Machine Guns always were anti-mech weapons (dealing 2 point of damage against mechs) and remained such in every edition thereafter. The actual additional anti-infantry capabilities came in later editions and did not change anything about the "anti-mech" capabilities.



=> The "argument" that Machine Guns are "anti-infantry" weapons that should not be in MW:O is simply baseless.

Willie Sauerland, on 23 January 2024 - 01:26 PM, said:

The first BT box set (which was the second edition) kept everything but the infantry rules.

So, the first edition under the actual "Battletech" label a.k.a. "second edition" did indeed not include any infantry rules when released. However, it still included Mechs with Machine Guns and the weapon damage against Mechs was still 2 points of damage just like in the OG Battledroids.

Willie Sauerland, on 23 January 2024 - 01:26 PM, said:

As such, machine guns were still considered an anti-infantry weapon even in the OG BT rules.

As such that is simply not true because "OG BT" - just as you said yourself - did not include infantry (or vehicles) rules but still had Machine Guns on various mechs (TDR-5S, PXH-1, LCT-1V, CRD-3R, BLR-1G, STG-3R, WHM-6R) that dealt 2 damage against other mechs.
=> The "anti-mech" capabilities were still there as they still are to this very day ... still making the claim that Machine Guns are "anti-infantry that have no place in MW:O" incorrect.

Willie Sauerland, on 23 January 2024 - 01:26 PM, said:

Infantry was added back to the original BT with the Citytech box set (a year or so later I think?).

Indeed, Citytech as an expansion to "OG BT" reintroduced infantry into the mix. However members of infantry squads were marked off based on their base weapon damage of the weapon used => An AC20 killed 20 men while a Machine Gun killed only 2. Not much of an "anti-infantry weapon" I'd say. The different handling of weapons against infantry that gave Machine Guns additional damage beyond its anti-mech damage came later.

Willie Sauerland, on 23 January 2024 - 01:26 PM, said:

So the argument that infantry was not in the OG BT fails quite admirably.

No, it doesn't fail at all - neither for Battledroids when talking about basic and advanced rules nor when talking about "OG BT" for the product that actually started out under the actual "Battletech" name and only added infantry back via the Citytech expansion.
What is failing misserably there was and still is that Machine Guns are "anti-infantry weapons" that shouldn't have a place in MW:O.

[edit]
And so far this was only a look at Machine Guns in two rule sets of Battledroids and actual "OG BT" in terms damage mechanics.
We could of course also add the fact that Battledroid and "OG BT" Machine Guns still are 500kg weapons (and still are in current editions), that firmly puts them in realms (and above) of real world weaponry like a GAU-8/As and the M61 Vulcans instead of what is commonly understood as a real world "machine gun" like a M-60 or a MG-3.
[/edit]

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 24 January 2024 - 11:10 AM.

[TheCaptainJZ]

How the mechlab displays everything has always been a challenge. The tic marks on graphs aren't always helpful with labels needed at critical points, the firepower stat is basically meaningless. The heat number doesn't help you know what your efficiency actually is. The presentation has always left much to be desired to me. Why are ballistics colored in purple and not a color that contrasts better with dark gray (kinda like the blue here on the forums isn't contrasted well enough). You can't even set a weapons group to chainfire. You have to do that in game. The UI just isn't all that great to me.

[Ekson Valdez]

A quick note:
Wether or not certain weapons should or should not be in the game is not part of this topic.
If you want to discuss about that, please open a new discussion on that particular topic or use an existing one.
Thank you kindly.

[Felbombling]

The information in the Mech Lab is pretty bad, I'd agree. The numbers for ATMs are a real sore spot for myself. What is the actual optimal range for ATMs after a quirk or skill points have added to the range?

Too much space and energy put into pitch and yaw, for example, while other, more useful stats are buried.

Like others have said, something for the next version of MechWarrior. Low chance development resources are going to be put toward this failing.

Edited by Felbombling, 25 January 2024 - 03:42 AM.

[Curccu]

Felbombling, on 25 January 2024 - 03:41 AM, said:

The numbers for ATMs are a real sore spot for myself. What is the actual optimal range for ATMs after a quirk or skill points have added to the range?

I greatly agree that ATMs range brackets are pretty much impossible to know, you got this nice tiny picture without numbers in right places, it is basically useless and so annoying.
After ATM range patch I tried to find out real ranges and it is just pretty much impossible without going to patchnotes and then checking quirk & skilltree bonuses and doing the math.
Instead of that useless range/damage picture there could be just number values of those brackets...

[Rhaelcan]

Willie Sauerland, on 23 January 2024 - 08:15 AM, said:

Machine guns should not be in the game.
They are an anti-infantry weapon.
There is no infantry in this game.

But I agree the numbers are confusing.
Or flat out wrong in some cases.

Yeah, but they were just as good at killing mechs too. Or at least critting them.